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[Vigilant111]

Heeden wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Then there is no need for Synthesis if they have achieved Synthesis.

The Reapers have not, most organics in the galaxy are "bound by the hardware limitations of organics" that make them instinctively fear synthetics (Shepard is not, which is why the Geth took an interest in him).

Tab u stepped right into the trap

So if the Geth achieved synthesis, does that mean they won't kill organics? also does that mean synthesis can be achieved without the Crucible?

Modifié par Vigilant111, 20 juin 2012 - 12:07 .

[Taboo]

Vigilant111 wrote...

Heeden wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Then there is no need for Synthesis if they have achieved Synthesis.

The Reapers have not, most organics in the galaxy are "bound by the hardware limitations of organics" that make them instinctively fear synthetics (Shepard is not, which is why the Geth took an interest in him).

Tab u stepped right into the trap

So if the Geth achieved synthesis, does that mean they won't kill organics? also does that mean synthesis can be achieved without the Crucible?

The whole thing is a joke, born of fear and arrogance.

You take no time to understand others, so you fear them. In Synthesis you merely force an understanding because you feel that an understanding on it's own is not possible, even when Rannoch says otherwise.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 20 juin 2012 - 12:10 .

[DrZann]

Heeden wrote...
Another Iain M. book, "Feersum Endjinn" has characters regularly uploading a mind-state of themselves in to the cryptosphere (like the internet if the internet spanned the entire planet and was made of nano-circcuitry) to interact with the data systems on their behalf, to be later integrated back in to the original mind (although more complex constructs have a chance to become incompatible given enough time).

Or like the internet if the internet was a living planet spanning network of flora? A Crypto-Biosphere. Neat.

[Vigilant111]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Heeden wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Then there is no need for Synthesis if they have achieved Synthesis.

The Reapers have not, most organics in the galaxy are "bound by the hardware limitations of organics" that make them instinctively fear synthetics (Shepard is not, which is why the Geth took an interest in him).

Tab u stepped right into the trap

So if the Geth achieved synthesis, does that mean they won't kill organics? also does that mean synthesis can be achieved without the Crucible?

The whole thing is a joke, born of fear and arrogance.

You take no time to understand others, so you fear them. In Synthesis you merely force an understanding because you feel that an understanding on it's own is not possible, even when Rannoch says otherwise.

I will shamelessly use a metaphor I invented a while ago here, again

Synthesis = marry to rich and powerful

Subjective rich and powerful = overrated

Synthesis = hedge against future revolt of the bottles

[AngryFrozenWater]

Heeden wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Obviously the geth wouldn't like synthesis forced upon them. Nor do they want to be driven by an external force that determines their future. The right of self-determination must be pretty important for them. After all: "Accepting another's path blinds you to alternatives." and "The process is as important as the result."

Geth have already achieved the effects of Synthesis through Legion's adventures with Shepard, they stopped being merely sentient machines and became sapient - Legion did this whole thing where he stated referring to himself as "I", Tali told him he had a soul then he sacrificed himself to gift that to the whole Geth collective.

I have highlighted it for you in the quote above.

The geth who helped the quarians with their immune system did that on a voluntary basis. Nobody forced them.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 20 juin 2012 - 12:29 .

[Shaigunjoe]

Taboo-XX wrote...

The Synthesis people are. That's exactely what I mean. Educating people about the enviroment today will help ALL people tomorrow. See how this works?

The Stargazer scene was suggested in a letter to Bioware by a young child. It is a paralell to all great figures. If you are religious, I can see why you'd choose Jesus. I however, am not religious.

Shepard is not an avatar of God, he is a man/woman. He is more akin to someone like Che Guevara or Bobby Sands. Both are controversial figures, and both have people who blindly follow them. And depending on who you are, they both did ethically dubious things.

I support Bobby Sands idea of protest, but not his involvement in the IRA.

I do not support Che Guevara at all.

You are WAY overestimating this.

He is "The Sheperd". A great leader, not a God.

Good, you agree that it is important to consider the impact of your actions even after you are dead.

Synthesis people are not betting against infinity, there is just a heck of a lot of different interpretations that can go along with it, as you have mentioned several times before we really don't know what happens with synthesis.  Besides, don't lump all synthesis people into 1 group.  I still think that the story of shep on the citadel is just that...a story of a legend.  I don't even think synthesis happened immediatly, I think thats what people think 10,000 years later (or however many years, if there is a comment in the code that says 10k years later, I would not take that as canon).

I never said he was a God, but a messiah figure, someone people idolize and possibly worship.  Shep was a prophet, got resurected, performs maricles (paradoxes?), and sacrificed his/her self so that others can live and has a band of devout followers, at least one of which seems intent to spread Shep's story.  Whether or not you are a religous person, you can see the impact that a life like that can have on society and culture.  I reference Jesus because that was a big one, we all still mark time from his crucifixtion.

There is a lot to say about the importance of legends  (I just finished reading Gaiman's Sandman so thats probably why I may be 'overestimating this?, if there is such a thing).  Hero's in stories are often composed of traits that people would like to embody.  Thats why I think if Shepard destroys the reapers, she is basically saying, hey kids! Just kill your problems with fire! I know you are headcannoning a safe return to earth where Shep will educate the world it what would probably be a series of PSA involving all of her squadmates (which they should totally do) but that is not any different than synthesis people handcannoning happy synthesis endings.

[Tom Lehrer]

Unless synthesis comes with a side of lobotomy the galaxy will be far more violent then before.

[Heeden]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
"Accepting another's path blinds you to alternatives."

"The process is as important as the result."

These are good points to consider, although as Gamestop put it "it's about the journey, not the destination".

In fact that's exactly why I chose destroy. It's not that I considered Synthesis to be bad, but ultimately I felt the experience would be richer for everyone - and the very, very long term results better - if our cycle were to continue down our path to reach that destination our own way.

[Taboo]

Not a PSA. A warning. You also assume that I believe that violence is the best answer in all situations. I do not. I was asked to stop the Reapers, nothing more. Any interference past that is unethical.

There will be no Control. There will be Synthesis.

I don't want to be a hero. People are going to treat it as such regardless of which choice you choose.

Is slavery the best way to solve an issue? Or to undermine the problem completely? All the implications are terrible.

You also assume what people will take that from Shepard's legend.

You don't think that MAYBE, people will choose to emulate the POSITIVE aspects of the character? Like kindness?

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 20 juin 2012 - 01:00 .

[Heeden]

Vigilant111 wrote...

So if the Geth achieved synthesis, does that mean they won't kill organics?

Reaching pretty far in to speculation here, the new appreciation the Geth gained for organics doesn't necessarily mean there'll be no more conflicts, but knowing that life has value in itself would prevent them from callously exterminating like the Reapers do.

also does that mean synthesis can be achieved without the Crucible?

I reckon so, but not in the same way as the Crucible would cause it to happen. Like Taboo says it can be achieved through education and trust, it might not have the exact same results or use the exact same methods but a new framework that includes organic and synthetic life could be attained.

[Joe Del Toro]

Synthesis gives everyone an extra toe.

[Shaigunjoe]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Not a PSA. A warning. You also assume that I believe that violence is the best answer in all situations. I do not. I was asked to stop the Reapers, nothing more. Any interference past that is unethical.

There will be no Control. There will be Synthesis.

I don't want to be a hero. People are going to treat it as regardless of which choice you choose.

Is slavery the best way to solve an issue? Or to undermine the problem completely? All the implications are terrible.

You also assume what people will take that from Shepard's legend.

You don't think that MAYBE, people will choose to emulate the POSITIVE aspects of the character? Like kindness?

PSA's can be warnings.

If you don't want to be a hero, then why play a game about the hero of the galaxy?

I do not assume you think violence is the best answer.  I think it is a possibility of people thinking you do.  There is a very big risk of people taking your actions and interpreting/twisting them to achieve some of their own goals.

Of course I assume what people will do from Shepard's actions!  Thats part of the fun!  Thats what we all are doing!  I agree, under the way you are interpreting things, all implications are terrible, but there have been terrible implications in other shepard actions as well (granted this is on a much larger scale).

Kindness, but to whom?  Kindness to your own kind or kindness to other races (they would cite the choice at the battle with Sovereign as the example).  Are leaders more important than those they lead?  Even if they are jedi-council stupid?

Is control even slavery?  According to the catalyst he controls the reapers, they sound like tools to me.  They say otherwise, but they don't act that way.  They don't display any individuality.  If you think it is slavery, then they were slaves to the catalyst before, why can't you just take control then set them free to be there individual selves? (This is a tanget discussion I think , probably doesn't need to be asked here in this thread but it is something I have wondered.)

[DrZann]

Joe Del Toro wrote...

Synthesis gives everyone an extra toe.

Considering how every species besides human appears to be toe-challenged how could Synthesis be anything but a good thing.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Heeden wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
"Accepting another's path blinds you to alternatives."

"The process is as important as the result."

These are good points to consider, although as Gamestop put it "it's about the journey, not the destination".

In fact that's exactly why I chose destroy. It's not that I considered Synthesis to be bad, but ultimately I felt the experience would be richer for everyone - and the very, very long term results better - if our cycle were to continue down our path to reach that destination our own way.

Then it was wasted time responding to me, wasn't it?

[Joe Del Toro]

DrZann wrote...

Joe Del Toro wrote...

Synthesis gives everyone an extra toe.

Considering how every species besides human appears to be toe-challenged how could Synthesis be anything but a good thing.

The toe is made of pasta.

[Heeden]

DrZann wrote...

Considering how every species besides human appears to be toe-challenged how could Synthesis be anything but a good thing.

Whilst there are clearly advantages to having an extra toe, is it right for us to force it on everyone? Some people may be happy with the number of toes they possess, or have moral or spiritual objections to extra-toedness. Would surgery be provided to remove toes if people want it, or could an act of will cause the toe to shrivel? What would be the relationship then between the super- and mundanely-toed?

Also what about the effects on other life - if bacteria all grew a toe would it somehow disrup the food chain? What about plants with toes - what would they do with them?

[Taboo]

We have no idea what they are. A gestalt consciousness is my best guess. I won't set them free because it would make a very precarious situation.

Much like in Doctor Who, when some Cybermen realized what they were. The Doctor found it more ethical to put such a being out of it's misery. I cannot fathom the guilt of a freed being. Imagine millions of minds calling out in pain. Unpleasant.

Do you remember that scene with Liara? That's what I mean. That's the kind of legacy I want to leave behind.

I may be a hero to others but I don't think my Shepard feels that way. That is what I meant.

People will ALWAYS misconstrue things to warp their agendas, but in time, I feel that people will choose not to be violent, much like they are now. There will always be fuddy duddies, but I can't imagine EVERYONE becoming a monster can you?

My Shepard still has a lot to say and a lot to do.

[Taboo]

Heeden wrote...

DrZann wrote...

Considering how every species besides human appears to be toe-challenged how could Synthesis be anything but a good thing.

Whilst there are clearly advantages to having an extra toe, is it right for us to force it on everyone? Some people may be happy with the number of toes they possess, or have moral or spiritual objections to extra-toedness. Would surgery be provided to remove toes if people want it, or could an act of will cause the toe to shrivel? What would be the relationship then between the super- and mundanely-toed?

Also what about the effects on other life - if bacteria all grew a toe would it somehow disrup the food chain? What about plants with toes - what would they do with them?

No, it isn't ethical to force everyone to have an extra toe.

I'm dead serious.

[DrZann]

Joe Del Toro wrote...

DrZann wrote...

Joe Del Toro wrote...

Synthesis gives everyone an extra toe.

Considering how every species besides human appears to be toe-challenged how could Synthesis be anything but a good thing.

The toe is made of pasta.

Ummmmm...pasta.

[DrZann]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Heeden wrote...

DrZann wrote...

Considering how every species besides human appears to be toe-challenged how could Synthesis be anything but a good thing.

Whilst there are clearly advantages to having an extra toe, is it right for us to force it on everyone? Some people may be happy with the number of toes they possess, or have moral or spiritual objections to extra-toedness. Would surgery be provided to remove toes if people want it, or could an act of will cause the toe to shrivel? What would be the relationship then between the super- and mundanely-toed?

Also what about the effects on other life - if bacteria all grew a toe would it somehow disrup the food chain? What about plants with toes - what would they do with them?

No, it isn't ethical to force everyone to have an extra toe.

I'm dead serious.

It's impossible to be dead serious...with an extra toe.

[Joe Del Toro]

DrZann wrote...

It's impossible to be dead serious...with an extra toe.

*Pastoe

[Taboo]

DrZann wrote...

It's impossible to be dead serious...with an extra toe.

Polydactyly is serious.

It can cause problems for peoples feet.

Giving someone an extra toe isn't just unethical, it's just a dick move.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 20 juin 2012 - 01:30 .

[DrZann]

Heeden wrote...

DrZann wrote...

Considering how every species besides human appears to be toe-challenged how could Synthesis be anything but a good thing.

Whilst there are clearly advantages to having an extra toe, is it right for us to force it on everyone? Some people may be happy with the number of toes they possess, or have moral or spiritual objections to extra-toedness. Would surgery be provided to remove toes if people want it, or could an act of will cause the toe to shrivel? What would be the relationship then between the super- and mundanely-toed?

Also what about the effects on other life - if bacteria all grew a toe would it somehow disrup the food chain? What about plants with toes - what would they do with them?

But its the only way to protect life from being harvested by a race of giant sentient podiatrists.

[DrZann]

Taboo-XX wrote...

DrZann wrote...

It's impossible to be dead serious...with an extra toe.

Polydactyly is serious.

It can cause problems for peoples feet.

Giving someone an extra toe isn't just unethical, it's just a dick move.

Who said the toe is going to be on your foot?

EDIT: Pastoe

Modifié par DrZann, 20 juin 2012 - 01:34 .

[Joe Del Toro]

DrZann wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

DrZann wrote...

It's impossible to be dead serious...with an extra toe.

Polydactyly is serious.

It can cause problems for peoples feet.

Giving someone an extra toe isn't just unethical, it's just a dick move.

Who said the toe is going to be on your foot?

I like the way you think.