209 réponses à ce sujet

[StarcloudSWG]

Logically, this would be called a proximity fallacy.

Anderson's wound and Shepard's wound are not related. Shepard got caught in the blast area of Harbinger's beams, remember?

[Xellith]

Shepard got hit with that 1 magic bullet that kevin costner was talking about in J.F.K.

[Tre.will]

Shrapnel from Harbinger's beam impact.

The scene of him bleeding from his side was only put there to show how badly injured he was and to foreshadow that he did not have much time left.

[dreamgazer]

jules_vern18 wrote...

Can you at least look at your conspiracy theory critically, or is the article just going to be dismissed like everything else that contradicts your "evidence?"  How about somebody reply to the guy who pointed out shepard holding his side before even shooting Anderson?

And the article doesn't need to be snipped.  If you don't post the content of an anti-IT link right in the forum, an Indoctrination Theorist will almost never read it.

I look at it as an interpretation that has iron roots in the lore, not a conspiracy theory. Those are your words, not mine, and it's based in your insistence of lumping everyone together.  I don't ascribe to every single thing that emerges in the main thread, because I have my own cognitive impressions.  It's not a host of lemmings, just as I shouldn't lump you into the same group that blunt-force insults those who take the opposing stance.

I snipped the article because I didn't want to clutter the page with excessive text.  Everyone else can read the article in your original post, or click the link that I preserved.  What it provides, however, is a clearer spin on the same argument that most of the theorists have already been bludgeoned with, just on a more cogent level.  And I agree with parts of the article, in that we yearn to make sense of something by applying our interpretation to what we see.  I agree that some of the theory's more outlandish revelations hinge on that. 

In other words: you're not telling anyone anything they haven't already heard with that article, and that general impression has been broken down to "confirmation bias" and carpet-bombed all over the forum as an easy way of debasing other interpretations. 

Shepard might be holding his abdomen in that shot, but we don't see the blood that we do until after the gun is fired.  There are ways of interpreting the blurry shot of Shepard huddled over like that: general pain, getting hit by the marauder's bullet, a host of other elements.  And there are ways of looking at when the injury occured that both support and don't support the interpretation. I've been significantly hurt several times before, and your body often naturally hunches over like that if it's an upper-body injury.  Yes, movement can cause a wound to open further, but so can the piercing of a new bullet in that same vicinity.  

We see significant blood on Shepard after the gun shot on Anderson, and we don't see it beforehand.  That's observable.

[mupp3tz]

Would it be too far of a stretch to say that maybe it's just one of the standard Bioware body models for "Ouch, I got shot!" or "It hurts!" and their penchant to use their left hand?  It doesn't necessarily mean that's exactly where -- realistically -- the wound is.

Garrus.
Tali.
Thane.
Miranda. -- for some reason, won't start where I designated. Watch 34m 3s.
Bailey.


Considering that they used a poorly 'shopped photo for Tali's reveal and the same body models for all the human males (down to the mole).  Do you honestly think they factored in "Well, where exactly did Anderson get shot?  What about Shepard?"

Modifié par M U P P 3 T Z, 22 mai 2012 - 07:33 .

[jules_vern18]

M U P P 3 T Z wrote...

Would it be too far of a stretch to say that maybe it's just one of the standard Bioware body models for "Ouch, I got shot!" or "It hurts!" and their penchant to use their left hand?  It doesn't necessarily mean that's exactly where -- realistically -- the wound is.

Garrus.
Tali.
Thane.
Miranda.
Bailey.


Considering that they used a poorly 'shopped photo for Tali's reveal and the same body models for all the human males (down to the mole).  Do you honestly think they factored in "Well, where exactly did Anderson get shot?  What about Shepard?"

/thread

[Beerfish]

The ole side wound? Fight club stole it from 'The Natural' who stole it from the death of Christ in the bible.

[Dendio1]

jules_vern18 wrote...

M U P P 3 T Z wrote...

Would it be too far of a stretch to say that maybe it's just one of the standard Bioware body models for "Ouch, I got shot!" or "It hurts!" and their penchant to use their left hand?  It doesn't necessarily mean that's exactly where -- realistically -- the wound is.

Garrus.
Tali.
Thane.
Miranda.
Bailey.


Considering that they used a poorly 'shopped photo for Tali's reveal and the same body models for all the human males (down to the mole).  Do you honestly think they factored in "Well, where exactly did Anderson get shot?  What about Shepard?"

/thread

Chalking up oddities to dev incompetence is just as much speculation as anything.

On one side of the ring we have blame everything on Indoc and on the otherside we have blame everything on dev oversight

The truth is usually somewhere in the middle.

Modifié par Dendio1, 22 mai 2012 - 07:40 .

[dreamgazer]

M U P P 3 T Z wrote...

Would it be too far of a stretch to say that maybe it's just one of the standard Bioware body models for "Ouch, I got shot!" or "It hurts!" and their penchant to use their left hand?  It doesn't necessarily mean that's exactly where -- realistically -- the wound is.

Garrus.
Tali.
Thane.
Miranda. -- for some reason, won't start where I designated. Watch 34m 3s.
Bailey.


Considering that they used a poorly 'shopped photo for Tali's reveal and the same body models for all the human males (down to the mole).  Do you honestly think they factored in "Well, where exactly did Anderson get shot?  What about Shepard?"

Sure.  These folks aren't the creative drones many have framed them to be, and those would be central machinations in the narrative. 

Your post does confirm something, though: that Shepard is perceived to be hurt as s/he is walking towards Anderson, which is a point-blank plot device.  In terms of the current conversation revolving around early subtle suggestion, we still have the hand-pat and the profusely-bleeding wound after the gun shot. 

[mupp3tz]

Dendio1 wrote...
Chalking up oddities to dev incompetence is just as much speculation as anything.

On one side of the ring we have blame everything on Indoc and on the otherside we have blame everything on dev oversight

The truth is usually somewhere in the middle.

True.  What I would give to be a fly on the wall during ME3's development phase.  Unfortunately -- or perhaps, fortunately for some -- we will never really know what the developers were thinking at the time.

I just find it kind of amusing that ME1 and ME2 were taken at face value.  All the speculation and symbolism suddenly pops up after disappointment over ME3 and now every little thing is foreshadowing or a clue.  Sometimes, things just are and don't need to be scrutinized.

Modifié par M U P P 3 T Z, 22 mai 2012 - 07:50 .

[jules_vern18]

Dendio1 wrote...

jules_vern18 wrote...

M U P P 3 T Z wrote...

Would it be too far of a stretch to say that maybe it's just one of the standard Bioware body models for "Ouch, I got shot!" or "It hurts!" and their penchant to use their left hand?  It doesn't necessarily mean that's exactly where -- realistically -- the wound is.

Garrus.
Tali.
Thane.
Miranda.
Bailey.


Considering that they used a poorly 'shopped photo for Tali's reveal and the same body models for all the human males (down to the mole).  Do you honestly think they factored in "Well, where exactly did Anderson get shot?  What about Shepard?"

/thread

Chalking up oddities to dev incompetence is just as much speculation as anything.

On one side of the ring we have blame everything on Indoc and on the otherside we have blame everything on dev oversight

The truth is usually somewhere in the middle.

Having a general "in pain" animation for all models isn't dev incompetence, it's common game design.  And that's the problem with IT - it refuses to accept that the coincidences it links are most easily explained by the inherant limitations of the medium.

And yes, Bioware's incompetence.  What in the last two months has led you to believe that Bioware is incapable of significant, glaring oversight?

[mupp3tz]

Funny thing I just noticed: Miranda's death scene... she goes from being bruised and beaten to perfectly clean face in 3 seconds. If that's not a glaring example of designer oversight, I don't know what is.

Point being: It's possible, guys.

Modifié par M U P P 3 T Z, 22 mai 2012 - 07:57 .

[ioannisdenton]

The way i see it. Me3 is SO baddly written compared to the previous games that actually the fan-generated from speculations IT makes sense and bioware should use it ASAP.

[Turbo_J]

dreamgazer wrote...

jules_vern18 wrote...

Can you at least look at your conspiracy theory critically, or is the article just going to be dismissed like everything else that contradicts your "evidence?"  How about somebody reply to the guy who pointed out shepard holding his side before even shooting Anderson?

And the article doesn't need to be snipped.  If you don't post the content of an anti-IT link right in the forum, an Indoctrination Theorist will almost never read it.

-snip-

We see significant blood on Shepard after the gun shot on Anderson, and we don't see it beforehand.  That's observable.

Agreed. The blood is also gone after the trip up to see the wizard... I mean Harbinger, I mean Star kid.

Not to take away from the OP's post and points, but focus for evidence needs to be more broad based. I noticed the wound on my first play through, and Tim looking younger even with the circuitry (look at his face during Mars; Shep never sees his real face - Just what the QEC shows), but I was looking for signs of indoctrination from the get go because there were hints to it in Arrival... and Shep was, well, full of Reaper tech; duh. Also; there is no precedent for 'control' to be imposed upon an organic the way Tim supposedly controlled Shep. 'Oily shadows' are indoctrination, not control... control would be - glowing yellow eyes - like Dr. K or any collector taken over by Harbi.

Most for and against IT are still focused primarily on the end of the game to explain what happened, what may have happened or so they can simply **** about bad writing. Granted, many can't play it again because they had their guts ripped out, but if you can... there is so much more than meets the eye. The game has some less than polished points graphics wise and some weak dialog, but the writing was damn good in most cases and the underlying story as a whole is one of the best in video games. ME3's true nature is unprecedented as is evident by its impact.

To quote Tim - I wish you could see it like I do...

The truth is, hints and blatant clues to the process of indoctrination exist throughout the entirety of ME3, starting just after Alliance HQ is hit. The biggest one right at the beginning is NOT the KID, not the growel in the duct (rat). It's the park the kid was playing in... I dare you to look for it. The building is there, just try to find the park. Go to the right as far as you can and look at the rooftop - look for the round building with the Alliance logo on it that the shuttle passes in the opening scene and you'll have an idea where Sheps window was. Also note how far away it is from where you see the kid enter the office building.

There are several points throughout the game that should call to question the validity of what Shepard is experiencing, be them hallucination, info or events directly related to the indoctrination process, accuracy/inaccuracy of information and conclusions drawn based on that info, clues on datapads scatter all over (one on the ability to FAKE any video footage to the point it's undetectable), communicated info. e.g. people repeating things they told Shep before or outright mixing up facts, Vendetta on Cronos; security protocols disabled. I will comply. <- why say that when it already agreed to help Shep. If security was up would it maybe say "I sense the taint of indoctrination on you."

You hear that hum? Or is that just me?

The process of Harbingers long con indoctrination is what I believe is taking place right up to London; then he takes the gloves off. This is why you never hear him and the focus is purposely kept off of him through the entire game... until the push to the really big object rho... I mean beam.

Oh, go into ME2, head down to the crew deck, walk towards the main battery and put on some headphones. Now listen to a clip of the post Harbi hit by the beam. I think the sound is just a coincidence, but it still creeps me out.

Did you know? -> "The krogan may server some future purpose we can't yet see" - P. Wicks

Krogan have never been indoctrinated. Bread and used as mercs/slaves, but not one has ever been indoctrinated. Hmmm?

Destroy = "I won't let fear pride and ego (Geth and EDI) change who I am."

Modifié par Turbo_J, 22 mai 2012 - 09:13 .

[Samtheman63]

darkchief10 wrote...

does no one remember marauder shields shot you there before you killed him? seriously?

get your eyes tested dude

[Samtheman63]

heres some picks after the beam and after marauder shields attacks, there is no injury to shepards stomach area and he clearly isn't touching his side

[Salient Archer]

I know it's off topic but, I would like to propose a question...

What is easier to believe?

1) An individual survives an explosion 50 times greater than hiroshima [at ground zero], somehow reenters earths atmosphere unscathed, free falls at around 203kph for over an hour to only land comfortably in some rubble [most conveniently in London], only to brush off the effects of hypoxia and hypothermia so (s)he can take a deep breath.

-or-

2) Said individual never left earth in the first place because they entered into a hallucinatory state due to the final straw of overwhelming mental stress and decay and physical trauma after beging caught in the blast radius of a death-beam.

Links:
http://social.biowar...3/2140#11951474
http://social.biowar...832/50#12081707

Modifié par Salient Archer, 22 mai 2012 - 10:20 .

[o Ventus]

Salient Archer wrote...

I know it's off topic but, I would like to propose a question...

What is easier to believe?

1) An individual survives an explosion 50 times greater than hiroshima [at ground zero], somehow reenters earths atmosphere unscathed, free falls at around 203kph for over an hour to only land comfortably in some rubble [most conveniently in London], only to brush off the effects of hypoxia and hypothermia so (s)he can take a deep breath.

-or-

2) Said individual never left earth in the first place because they entered into a hallucinatory state due to the final straw of overwhelming mental stress and decay and physical trauma after beging caught in the blast radius of a death-beam.

Links:
http://social.biowar...3/2140#11951474
http://social.biowar...832/50#12081707

This is a tough one...

[legaldinho]

asset reuse guys.... that or plain old bad design. EA's bad m'kay. Drugs are bad. Indoctrination's definitely bad.

[chemiclord]

After the hell Shepard faced to get to that point, I'm amazed his everything isn't bleeding. He could have put his hand over his gonads and would have probably found blood.

[Bob3terd]

Pelle6666 wrote...

He was probably hurt in the explosion, he is already holding his hand over that wound before Marauder Shields turns out.

IT has compeling arguments, this is not one of them.

[legaldinho]

Bob3terd wrote...

Pelle6666 wrote...

He was probably hurt in the explosion, he is already holding his hand over that wound before Marauder Shields turns out.

IT has compeling arguments, this is not one of them.

asset reuse! Bad bioware design? Hold the hand!

[stysiaq]

Salient Archer wrote...

I know it's off topic but, I would like to propose a question...

What is easier to believe?

1) An individual survives an explosion 50 times greater than hiroshima [at ground zero], somehow reenters earths atmosphere unscathed, free falls at around 203kph for over an hour to only land comfortably in some rubble [most conveniently in London], only to brush off the effects of hypoxia and hypothermia so (s)he can take a deep breath.

-or-

2) Said individual never left earth in the first place because they entered into a hallucinatory state due to the final straw of overwhelming mental stress and decay and physical trauma after beging caught in the blast radius of a death-beam.

Links:
http://social.biowar...3/2140#11951474
http://social.biowar...832/50#12081707

After seeing Indiana Jones 4, I'm not so sure

@OP: while Shepard having "London wound" is my favorite part of proving all the scene unreal, I assume it can be just a coincidence. Would like it not to be one though.

[Warrior Craess]

darkchief10 wrote...

does no one remember marauder shields shot you there before you killed him? seriously?

actually I believe marauder shields shoots shepard in the right shoulder area. Based on the way shepard jerks when hit.  (btw poor marauder shields has got to be annoyed that he's got the only single shot assault rifle in the universe). Whereas Shepard shoots Anderson in the left side....

So no marauder shields doesn't cause the wound in shepards side. 

[Destructorlio]

jules_vern18 wrote...

Which is a more common-sense explanation?

1.)  Shepard was recently hit by a reaper beam and is covered in bleeding wounds.  One of them reopened/was unable to clot.  This is called bleeding out.  Perhaps a piece of shrapnel or debris was blocking the wound. 

2.)  The entire scene never happened.  Bioware has a trick up their sleeve of some kind and has refused to reveal it despite unprecedented backlash and fan outrage.

Dude, you can use that argument for one, perhaps two or three, of the twenty pieces of IT evidence we have amassed (and this is utterly discounting all the thematic evidence and the multiple foreshadowing conversations you have with your crew about indoctrination). But you can't use it for all of them- they all point to the same theory, they all support the same idea. Yes, seen individually, the pieces of evidence can be dismissed. But seen collectively, they cannot.

What is more likely:

1. That Shepard survives the explosion in the crucible at point-blank range, falls out of the Citadel, lands in London, yet still lives?
2. That the crucible scene is an indoctrination attempt?

Seriously. What is more likely. There are dozens more of these.