209 réponses à ce sujet

[Destructorlio]

Does anyone remember that movie Return of the Jedi?

The hero, Luke Sywalker, has previously had his hand cut off by his father, Darth Vader, who himself was largely artificial. Luke in turn has had his own hand replaced by a mechanical hand.

During the last fight sequence, Luke is hammering away at Darth Vader and he chops Darth Vader's hand off. Luke sees the exposed wires of his father's mechanical hand, then looks at his own mechanical hand. He flexes it slightly, and hears the gears of his hand working. He looks shocked, horrified.

Do you kind of see what I'm getting at here? That the hand is a symbol for how Luke is becoming like his father? Symbols have meaning. What the camera chooses to look at has meaning.

Shepard doesn't shoot Andersen in the side, then hold a hand to her own side, and look at the blood on her hand from that wound for no reason. It is a symbol. It is a sign. It is conveying information to us. The nature of that information is up for grabs, but it seems to me that literalists just see it as a bunch of stuff that happened for no reason, while ITheorists see it as a signifier that something odd is happening. Yes, on it's own it is dismissable. But when you combine it with the 20+ other signifiers we've discovered, it adds up to the end sequence isn't real.

[M2S SOLID JOSH]

kingpenn wrote...

Bob3terd wrote...

kingpenn wrote...

dr888 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...

You do understand Shepard shot Anderson's right side, and Shepard is bleeding from the left side?

Anderson clutches his left abdomen when he gets shot...

Yes, but  why   leans to his right then ? Also Shepard seems to lean to his right after shooting Anderson. Bad writing or no quality  check  ?

why would you put pressure on the hurt side of your body?

Seriously youd just let it bleed? The reason people put pressure on a wound is to staunch the bleeding, if you dont you bleed out.

lol let me refraise why would lu lean on the injury i dont mean the hand imrefurint to the lean if you eant to move you lean to the side that does not hurt not the side that does in my opinian putting pressure would stop the bleeding you are fight i need to choose words better

ever had a stomach-ache so bad u bend over and squeeze ur stomach? just imagine that but much more painful

[Mcfly616]

Destructorlio wrote...

Does anyone remember that movie Return of the Jedi?

The hero, Luke Sywalker, has previously had his hand cut off by his father, Darth Vader, who himself was largely artificial. Luke in turn has had his own hand replaced by a mechanical hand.

During the last fight sequence, Luke is hammering away at Darth Vader and he chops Darth Vader's hand off. Luke sees the exposed wires of his father's mechanical hand, then looks at his own mechanical hand. He flexes it slightly, and hears the gears of his hand working. He looks shocked, horrified.

Do you kind of see what I'm getting at here? That the hand is a symbol for how Luke is becoming like his father? Symbols have meaning. What the camera chooses to look at has meaning.

Shepard doesn't shoot Andersen in the side, then hold a hand to her own side, and look at the blood on her hand from that wound for no reason. It is a symbol. It is a sign. It is conveying information to us. The nature of that information is up for grabs, but it seems to me that literalists just see it as a bunch of stuff that happened for no reason, while ITheorists see it as a signifier that something odd is happening. Yes, on it's own it is dismissable. But when you combine it with the 20+ other signifiers we've discovered, it adds up to the end sequence isn't real.

Yes....I agree.....

[mupp3tz]

Since the Mass Effect franchise was just the epitome for high symbolism in their plots prior to ME3 and all.

[jules_vern18]

Salient Archer wrote...

I know it's off topic but, I would like to propose a question...

What is easier to believe?

1) An individual survives an explosion 50 times greater than hiroshima [at ground zero], somehow reenters earths atmosphere unscathed, free falls at around 203kph for over an hour to only land comfortably in some rubble [most conveniently in London], only to brush off the effects of hypoxia and hypothermia so (s)he can take a deep breath.

-or-

2) Said individual never left earth in the first place because they entered into a hallucinatory state due to the final straw of overwhelming mental stress and decay and physical trauma after beging caught in the blast radius of a death-beam.

Links:
http://social.biowar...3/2140#11951474
http://social.biowar...832/50#12081707

Shepard waking up on Earth is an assumption, not a fact.  You can just as easily compare objects in the rubble to those found on the citadel as you can to those found on earth (and people have).  

[Destructorlio]

M U P P 3 T Z wrote...

Shepard waking up on Earth is an assumption, not a fact.  You can just as easily compare objects in the rubble to those found on the citadel as you can to those found on earth (and people have).  

 

Yes but when you make a detailed comparison most of the evidence points towards London and almost none of it points to the Citadel.

[Salient Archer]

jules_vern18 wrote...

Salient Archer wrote...

I know it's off topic but, I would like to propose a question...

What is easier to believe?

1) An individual survives an explosion 50 times greater than hiroshima [at ground zero], somehow reenters earths atmosphere unscathed, free falls at around 203kph for over an hour to only land comfortably in some rubble [most conveniently in London], only to brush off the effects of hypoxia and hypothermia so (s)he can take a deep breath.

-or-

2) Said individual never left earth in the first place because they entered into a hallucinatory state due to the final straw of overwhelming mental stress and decay and physical trauma after beging caught in the blast radius of a death-beam.

Links:
http://social.biowar...3/2140#11951474
http://social.biowar...832/50#12081707

Shepard waking up on Earth is an assumption, not a fact.  You can just as easily compare objects in the rubble to those found on the citadel as you can to those found on earth (and people have).  

Shepard being in Lodon is a a fairly easy assumption to make even without all the evidence in the comparisons, there is other evidence being in favor of it.  But rather than tell you what I think, how about someone logically answers these questions for me!

If the breathing scene was on the citadel where would Shepard be? It can’t be anywhere near the presidium considering that wen’t kablooey! It’s fairly safe to say that Shepard was incapacitated by blowing up the tube, so I doubt he crawled off to safety in the minute before being hit a with a 50 megaton explosion.




How did Shepard survive this?




We can clearly hear wind during Shepard's breathing scene? Considering there seems to be quite a lack of wind in space I have a feeling there's a much more logical answer for that question.

Listen Carefully

Please logically explain to me how Shepard’s armor hasn’t sustained any additional damage? Between the tube blowing up in his face and the citadel erupting into pieces wouldn’t there be a few more dents and scratches visible during his breathing scene? [see images below for comparison]





I would appreciate logical answers, but I'm sure most of you will only find the default answer of a  did it.

Modifié par Salient Archer, 24 mai 2012 - 01:24 .

[Wyatt Shepard]

jsadalia wrote...

Destructorlio wrote...

Not saying that IT is true, but assuming that it is for a moment, and the EC comes out and completely validates it as being true and the story continues on from Shepard's 'breath'. After that happens, there will be interviews with Bioware when they can FINALLY be candid and talk openly about their plan. And the interviewer will ask: "What clues did you put in that IT was true?" and they will say, well, obviously the breath, and the Normandy crash, and the trees at the conduit, and the reflections in the crucible room. And they will definitely say that when you shot Andersen, you got the wound. It was one of the first moments of 'unreality' where you first got an inkling that things weren't quite right. I mean, there is no question of this- if IT is true, that wound is a BIG sign that it is. 

Shepard clearly had the wound before he shot Anderson.

Image of Shep holding his wound:

Video of Shep holding his wound:
www.youtube.com/watch, at about 2:58.

If you notice, Shep is using his left arm to hold is right side there, not the left side, where the wound ends up being after Anderson dies. Just sayin'

[Omega Torsk]

*takes out a piece of chalk, draws a big circle, writes "plot hole" under it, and points at the drawing*

THAT is why Shepard is bleeding from his side. It could've had meaning if Bioware followed it up, but they didn't. They just left it there, probably hoping nobody would notice. Same story with the stockpile of other plot holes that we have.

[jsadalia]

Salient Archer wrote...


Shepard being in Lodon is a a fairly easy assumption to make even without all the evidence in the comparisons, there is other evidence being in favor of it.  But rather than tell you what I think, how about someone logically answers these questions for me!

If the breathing scene was on the citadel where would Shepard be? It can’t be anywhere near the presidium considering that wen’t kablooey! It’s fairly safe to say that Shepard was incapacitated by blowing up the tube, so I doubt he crawled off to safety in the minute before being hit a with a 50 megaton explosion.

50 megatons? Do we have a source on that? We don't know what happened.  This is hyper-advanced exotic technology.  We don't know what energies were released.  Just because it looks like something (a conventional explosion) doesn't mean it is that thing.

Salient Archer wrote... 




How did Shepard survive this?




We can clearly hear wind during Shepard's breathing scene? Considering there seems to be quite a lack of wind in space I have a feeling there's a much more logical answer for that question. 

Listen Carefully

You don't know it's wind.  It's a groaning noise.  And even if it is wind, movement in the atmosphere of a damaged space station is hardly ridiculous. 

Salient Archer wrote...  

Please logically explain to me how Shepard’s armor hasn’t sustained any additional damage? Between the tube blowing up in his face and the citadel erupting into pieces wouldn’t there be a few more dents and scratches visible during his breathing scene? [see images below for comparison]





I would appreciate logical answers, but I'm sure most of you will only find the default answer of a  did it.

It's a video game. Seriously, my Shep had the crapped kicked out of her across three games without a scratch to her armor.  They used the same model.

Modifié par jsadalia, 24 mai 2012 - 10:05 .

[mupp3tz]

@Salient Archer

I don't know why but while scrolling down I was reading that as: "Shepard?" "Shepard." "Shepard!" "SHEEEPAAAAAARD!!!??"

... and laughed hysterically.

Also, thank you for dissecting the rubble scene. I, for the life of me, could never figure out exactly what I was looking at.. except for a body with an N7 tag. What exactly is sticking out? I had no idea... until today. In fact, I just always thought the armor looked like a Turian face. Lulz.

Modifié par M U P P 3 T Z, 24 mai 2012 - 10:05 .

[Obvakhi]

Salient Archer wrote...
How did Shepard survive this?

From Patrick Weeks: "The Citadel has emergency shelters and kinetic barriers - even if it blows up, millions might survive. "

[Ji99saw]

jsadalia wrote...

Destructorlio wrote...

Not saying that IT is true, but assuming that it is for a moment, and the EC comes out and completely validates it as being true and the story continues on from Shepard's 'breath'. After that happens, there will be interviews with Bioware when they can FINALLY be candid and talk openly about their plan. And the interviewer will ask: "What clues did you put in that IT was true?" and they will say, well, obviously the breath, and the Normandy crash, and the trees at the conduit, and the reflections in the crucible room. And they will definitely say that when you shot Andersen, you got the wound. It was one of the first moments of 'unreality' where you first got an inkling that things weren't quite right. I mean, there is no question of this- if IT is true, that wound is a BIG sign that it is. 

Shepard clearly had the wound before he shot Anderson.

Image of Shep holding his wound:

Video of Shep holding his wound:
www.youtube.com/watch, at about 2:58.

[Elite Midget]

davishepard wrote...

darkchief10 wrote...

does no one remember marauder shields shot you there before you killed him? seriously?

Of course not. IT is the only possible truth, don't yow know? ^^

More ignorance. MS never shoots you in the side, he shoots you in the shoulder. Clearly he wasn't aiming to kill.

[Sundance31us]

Not supporting any theory, but I was taken by the lack of blood when Shepard was making his way back to the console before he collapsed.

Particularly in comparison to a certain someone else who drags himself toward a console only to collapse before making it.

[Salient Archer]

Because someone asked for some math on the situation, I offer you Wall'O'Math

Supernovas
Produces the same destructive power of 10^162 Gigaton of TNT
The full strength of the blast has a range of 10au depending on the size of the star, but the remnant shockwave and radiation has a travel distance of around 50au with dissipating intensity over distance.

The Sol System Relay
The Sol Relay approximately is 39au from our star.

The Mu Relay
It was estimated that the Mu Relay was much closer to the star that went supernova (possibly as close at 13au based on in-game star charts) but just to be lenient to naysayers lets say it was still 39au from the blast center.

Due to It’s distance from the blast center it was hit with approximately only 10 Gigaton of TNT and as a result was not damaged but was flung out of it’s orbit. Although it could have been as high as 10^6 Gigaton.

The Citadel
As stated in Mass Effect Revelation The Citadel is made from the same materials as the Mass Relays. The presidium and each arm also contains pods that produce mass effect fields the protect the wards by keeping the outer skin separate from the rest of the structures, which protects it from intense external damage. It stands to reason the Citadel (with it’s arms closed) could also sustain external hits of a Gigaton or greater.

In essence; the Citadel would have to incur a massive internalized explosion, where it is most vulnerable. To be lenient lets place the explosion at no greater than 1 Gigaton (although could be as great as 10 Gigaton).

Kinetic Barriers
The shielding afforded by kinetic barriers protects against fast moving projectiles but they do not protect against extremes of temperature, toxins, or radiation.

Could Shepard outrun the blast?
The Presidium Is 7.6 kilometers in diameter, the explosion presented in the destruction cinematic has an estimated radius of 19 kilometers. To out run an explosion of this size the average person would need either a head start of 1 hour 11 minutes and 15 seconds to escape the blast or be capable of running at 900kph for the 1 minute and 19 seconds shown between the tube destruction and the central explosion.

The Human Body
At 537 degrees celsius (1000 Fahrenheit) the human skin catches fire.
At 982 degrees celsius (1800 Fahrenheit) human bones can turn to ash
The blast that would have destroyed the Citadel would have to produce temperatures in excess of 8,000,000 degrees celsius (14,400,032 Fahrenheit) vaporizing anyone inside the blast zone.

If Shepard is shown to be breathing on earth how did he get there?....
Well it wouldn't be by falling there, that's for sure...

If the Citadel was parked about 238,855 miles (384,000km) from Earth (using the moons orbital distance as a frame of reference) it would take Shepard at least 13+ hours to reach earths outer atmosphere if he was able to propel himself at a direct vector and at the safe orbital re-entry speed of 17,500 mph (28,163 kph). This could become problematic without an envirosuit as the human respiratory system can only last up to 90 seconds within a vacuum.

Now assuming he can survive temps of up to 11,726 degrees Celsius (21,138 fahrenheit) during the re-entry stage he would now have scrubbed off most of his speed due to air friction. He still needs to be able to survive the extreme drop to the ground. During this stage he should reach his max terminal velocity speed of 126mph (203kph) once he enters past the thermosphere, making his fall last around around 1.6 hours before the ground breaks his fall. However the air from 9 kilometers and up has an average tempt of around -35 degrees celsius causing Shepard to suffer from both Hypothermia and Hypoxia making him totally incapable of controlling his fall.

Modifié par Salient Archer, 25 mai 2012 - 09:17 .

[Nordland SE]

The first thing I thought of when the camera zooms in to the wound was that somehow he/she shot herself and that Anderson isn't even there.

[Salient Archer]

jsadalia wrote...

Salient Archer wrote...





I would appreciate logical answers, but I'm sure most of you will only find the default answer of a  did it. 

It's a video game. Seriously, my Shep had the crapped kicked out of her across three games without a scratch to her armor.  They used the same model.

True that, and I argued for that notion myself until I looked into the game files and found that this scene was CGI and done in BioWare Montreal not BioWare Edmonton; meaning the scene could have had Shepard wearing whatever the hell they wanted him/her too but instead they chose to recreate that armor. Personally if I was the CGI artist I would have wanted to increase the level of damage shown even if it was just from the tube explosion.

Modifié par Salient Archer, 25 mai 2012 - 10:29 .

[Salient Archer]

M U P P 3 T Z wrote...

@Salient Archer

I don't know why but while scrolling down I was reading that as: "Shepard?" "Shepard." "Shepard!" "SHEEEPAAAAAARD!!!??"

... and laughed hysterically.

Also, thank you for dissecting the rubble scene. I, for the life of me, could never figure out exactly what I was looking at.. except for a body with an N7 tag. What exactly is sticking out? I had no idea... until today. In fact, I just always thought the armor looked like a Turian face. Lulz.

Hahaha, Glad to have been of service.

[excelon]

Salient Archer wrote...

Because someone asked for some math on the situation, I offer you Wall'O'Math

Supernovas
Produces the same destructive power of 10^162 Gigaton of TNT
The full strength of the blast has a range of 10au depending on the size of the star, but the remnant shockwave and radiation has a travel distance of around 50au with dissipating intensity over distance.

The Sol System Relay
The Sol Relay approximately is 39au from our star.

The Mu Relay
It was estimated that the Mu Relay was much closer to the star that went supernova (possibly as close at 13au based on in-game star charts) but just to be lenient to naysayers lets say it was still 39au from the blast center.

Due to It’s distance from the blast center it was hit with approximately only 10 Gigaton of TNT and as a result was not damaged but was flung out of it’s orbit. Although it could have been as high as 10^6 Gigaton.

The Citadel
As stated in Mass Effect Revelation The Citadel is made from the same materials as the Mass Relays. The presidium and each arm also contains pods that produce mass effect fields the protect the wards by keeping the outer skin separate from the rest of the structures, which protects it from intense external damage. It stands to reason the Citadel (with it’s arms closed) could also sustain external hits of a Gigaton or greater.

In essence; the Citadel would have to incur a massive internalized explosion, where it is most vulnerable. To be lenient lets place the explosion at no greater than 1 Gigaton (although could be as great as 10 Gigaton).

Kinetic Barriers
The shielding afforded by kinetic barriers protects against fast moving projectiles but they do not protect against extremes of temperature, toxins, or radiation.

Could Shepard outrun the blast?
The Presidium Is 7.6 kilometers in diameter, the explosion presented in the destruction cinematic has an estimated radius of 19 kilometers. To out run an explosion of this size the average person would need either a head start of 1 hour 11 minutes and 15 seconds to escape the blast or be capable of running at 900kph for the 1 minute and 19 seconds shown between the tube destruction and the central explosion.

The Human Body
At 537 degrees celsius (1000 Fahrenheit) the human skin catches fire.
At 982 degrees celsius (1800 Fahrenheit) human bones can turn to ash
The blast that would have destroyed the Citadel would have to produce temperatures in excess of 8,000,000 degrees celsius (14,400,032 Fahrenheit) vaporizing anyone inside the blast zone.

If Shepard is shown to be breathing on earth how did he get there?....
Well it wouldn't be by falling there, that's for sure...

If the Citadel was parked about 238,855 miles (384,000km) from Earth (using the moons orbital distance as a frame of reference) it would take Shepard at least 13+ hours to reach earths outer atmosphere if he was able to propel himself at a direct vector and at the safe orbital re-entry speed of 17,500 mph (28,163 kph). This could become problematic without an envirosuit as the human respiratory system can only last up to 90 seconds within a vacuum.

Now assuming he can survive temps of up to 11,726 degrees Celsius (21,138 fahrenheit) during the re-entry stage he would now have scrubbed off most of his speed due to air friction. He still needs to be able to survive the extreme drop to the ground. During this stage he should reach his max terminal velocity speed of 126mph (203kph) once he enters past the thermosphere, making his fall last around around 1.6 hours before the ground breaks his fall. However the air from 9 kilometers and up has an average tempt of around -35 degrees celsius causing Shepard to suffer from both Hypothermia and Hypoxia making him totally incapable of controlling his fall.

That's some hardcore Physics right there.

[Salient Archer]

Obvakhi wrote...

Salient Archer wrote...
How did Shepard survive this?

From Patrick Weeks: "The Citadel has emergency shelters and kinetic barriers - even if it blows up, millions might survive. "

One) I believe he was referring to those on the wards, not the presidium.

Two) Kinetic barriers have their limits. For example a personal Barrier can only stand up to sustained fire from a Revenant for no more than 3 seconds. The blast that took out the presidium would have to be outputting far more damage than that considering it’s made from the same material as the mass relays. Considering the basic principles remain the same regardless of it being a personal shield or a starship, if the blast was strong enough to destroy the presidium it would have taken out its barriers just as easily.

Three) Even if capable of withstanding the energy of the blast they wouldn’t protect an individual from the temperatures reached for an explosion of that size.

Four) "The Citadel has emergency shelters and kinetic barriers - even if it blows up, millions might survive. " Not once in that sentance does it say that Shepard ever used or even made it to an emergency shelter. Also the keywords are ‘might survive’. Mr.Weeks is giving enough information to pacificy the casual reader but hasn't really said anything substantial.

[Fingertrip]

Wow, I seriously hate so much many people in this thread. It's like they're intentionally being stupid. I don't think alot of people even took the liberty to educate themselves when it comes to directing as well, altho that is more of a rarity.

The camera during the last bits of ME3 is extremely crucial. When you do get shot by Marauder Shields, YOU ARE SHOWN very clearly that you were shot in the upper-right, to avoid any indiciation that you might be stupid enough to try and tie that in with the shot vs Anderson. Which again, is quite delibarely shown that you are shot at I (Believe from the top of my head) the lower-left of your stomach.

The fact that Shepard reaches for the wound and see's fresh blood is the fact that Anderson was the good-side Paragon of Shepard, and it was the last bit resisting the Indoctrination, whereas the Renegade aspect was portrayed as TIM.

It is artistic in which Bioware has done, and if you disagree, you're just to stupid to get it and shouldn't even consider yourself a fan of the Mass Effect universe.

[estebanus]

Fingertrip wrote...

Wow, I seriously hate so much many people in this thread. It's like they're intentionally being stupid. I don't think alot of people even took the liberty to educate themselves when it comes to directing as well, altho that is more of a rarity.

The camera during the last bits of ME3 is extremely crucial. When you do get shot by Marauder Shields, YOU ARE SHOWN very clearly that you were shot in the upper-right, to avoid any indiciation that you might be stupid enough to try and tie that in with the shot vs Anderson. Which again, is quite delibarely shown that you are shot at I (Believe from the top of my head) the lower-left of your stomach.

The fact that Shepard reaches for the wound and see's fresh blood is the fact that Anderson was the good-side Paragon of Shepard, and it was the last bit resisting the Indoctrination, whereas the Renegade aspect was portrayed as TIM.

It is artistic in which Bioware has done, and if you disagree, you're just to stupid to get it and shouldn't even consider yourself a fan of the Mass Effect universe.

Wow...

That's not a very good way to portrait us ITers at all, you know?

The point about marauder shields not shooting Shepard in the stomach is valid, but that is all I can say.

You just insulted a large part of the fanbase, you know that, right? The only thing that does is create more hate and vitriol about us.

[Shepard Wins]

Fingertrip wrote...

Wow, I seriously hate so much many people in this thread. It's like they're intentionally being stupid. I don't think alot of people even took the liberty to educate themselves when it comes to directing as well, altho that is more of a rarity.

The camera during the last bits of ME3 is extremely crucial. When you do get shot by Marauder Shields, YOU ARE SHOWN very clearly that you were shot in the upper-right, to avoid any indiciation that you might be stupid enough to try and tie that in with the shot vs Anderson. Which again, is quite delibarely shown that you are shot at I (Believe from the top of my head) the lower-left of your stomach.

The fact that Shepard reaches for the wound and see's fresh blood is the fact that Anderson was the good-side Paragon of Shepard, and it was the last bit resisting the Indoctrination, whereas the Renegade aspect was portrayed as TIM.

It is artistic in which Bioware has done, and if you disagree, you're just to stupid to get it and shouldn't even consider yourself a fan of the Mass Effect universe.

Anger much?

[Salient Archer]

He does seem angry but to be honest it can happen to the best of us at the worst of times. A lot of people seem to see the obvious evidence and disregard it and they make false statements without weighing up the facts. It can be frustrating when you feel the answers are obvious but yet others refuse to grasp them. but honestly we just need to not let it get us worked up, I know that the directing in these last scenes is very deliberate and we should be taking note of what bioware are trying to relate to us, but we shouldn't scorn each other just because we all don't see eye to eye. Healthy debate will lead to revelation, but don't let it lead to anger: stay strong.