209 réponses à ce sujet

[jsadalia]

Fingertrip wrote...

Wow, I seriously hate so much many people in this thread. It's like they're intentionally being stupid. I don't think alot of people even took the liberty to educate themselves when it comes to directing as well, altho that is more of a rarity.

The camera during the last bits of ME3 is extremely crucial. When you do get shot by Marauder Shields, YOU ARE SHOWN very clearly that you were shot in the upper-right, to avoid any indiciation that you might be stupid enough to try and tie that in with the shot vs Anderson. Which again, is quite delibarely shown that you are shot at I (Believe from the top of my head) the lower-left of your stomach.

The fact that Shepard reaches for the wound and see's fresh blood is the fact that Anderson was the good-side Paragon of Shepard, and it was the last bit resisting the Indoctrination, whereas the Renegade aspect was portrayed as TIM.

It is artistic in which Bioware has done, and if you disagree, you're just to stupid to get it and shouldn't even consider yourself a fan of the Mass Effect universe.

Awesome. I hate you too.

[jsadalia]

Salient Archer wrote...

Because someone asked for some math on the situation, I offer you Wall'O'Math

Supernovas
Produces the same destructive power of 10^162 Gigaton of TNT
The full strength of the blast has a range of 10au depending on the size of the star, but the remnant shockwave and radiation has a travel distance of around 50au with dissipating intensity over distance.

The Sol System Relay
The Sol Relay approximately is 39au from our star.

The Mu Relay
It was estimated that the Mu Relay was much closer to the star that went supernova (possibly as close at 13au based on in-game star charts) but just to be lenient to naysayers lets say it was still 39au from the blast center.

Due to It’s distance from the blast center it was hit with approximately only 10 Gigaton of TNT and as a result was not damaged but was flung out of it’s orbit. Although it could have been as high as 10^6 Gigaton.

The Citadel
As stated in Mass Effect Revelation The Citadel is made from the same materials as the Mass Relays. The presidium and each arm also contains pods that produce mass effect fields the protect the wards by keeping the outer skin separate from the rest of the structures, which protects it from intense external damage. It stands to reason the Citadel (with it’s arms closed) could also sustain external hits of a Gigaton or greater.

In essence; the Citadel would have to incur a massive internalized explosion, where it is most vulnerable. To be lenient lets place the explosion at no greater than 1 Gigaton (although could be as great as 10 Gigaton).

Kinetic Barriers
The shielding afforded by kinetic barriers protects against fast moving projectiles but they do not protect against extremes of temperature, toxins, or radiation.

Could Shepard outrun the blast?
The Presidium Is 7.6 kilometers in diameter, the explosion presented in the destruction cinematic has an estimated radius of 19 kilometers. To out run an explosion of this size the average person would need either a head start of 1 hour 11 minutes and 15 seconds to escape the blast or be capable of running at 900kph for the 1 minute and 19 seconds shown between the tube destruction and the central explosion.

The Human Body
At 537 degrees celsius (1000 Fahrenheit) the human skin catches fire.
At 982 degrees celsius (1800 Fahrenheit) human bones can turn to ash
The blast that would have destroyed the Citadel would have to produce temperatures in excess of 8,000,000 degrees celsius (14,400,032 Fahrenheit) vaporizing anyone inside the blast zone.

If Shepard is shown to be breathing on earth how did he get there?....
Well it wouldn't be by falling there, that's for sure...

If the Citadel was parked about 238,855 miles (384,000km) from Earth (using the moons orbital distance as a frame of reference) it would take Shepard at least 13+ hours to reach earths outer atmosphere if he was able to propel himself at a direct vector and at the safe orbital re-entry speed of 17,500 mph (28,163 kph). This could become problematic without an envirosuit as the human respiratory system can only last up to 90 seconds within a vacuum.

Now assuming he can survive temps of up to 11,726 degrees Celsius (21,138 fahrenheit) during the re-entry stage he would now have scrubbed off most of his speed due to air friction. He still needs to be able to survive the extreme drop to the ground. During this stage he should reach his max terminal velocity speed of 126mph (203kph) once he enters past the thermosphere, making his fall last around around 1.6 hours before the ground breaks his fall. However the air from 9 kilometers and up has an average tempt of around -35 degrees celsius causing Shepard to suffer from both Hypothermia and Hypoxia making him totally incapable of controlling his fall.

This is all genuinely fascinating, but is based on the assumption that the Citadel is detroyed. This is not shown in the ending scene.  Explosions, some movement of the arms, but not outright destruction.  If we're going to apply sharp observation to other parts of the game, we have to apply it here too and go only on what we're shown, not what we assume happens off screen.

And if IT is correct and Shepard has just resisted an indoctrination attempt, what exactly are we looking at here, anyway?

[Salient Archer]

jsadalia wrote...

Salient Archer wrote...

Because someone asked for some math on the situation, I offer you Wall'O'Math

Supernovas
Produces the same destructive power of 10^162 Gigaton of TNT
The full strength of the blast has a range of 10au depending on the size of the star, but the remnant shockwave and radiation has a travel distance of around 50au with dissipating intensity over distance.

The Sol System Relay
The Sol Relay approximately is 39au from our star.

The Mu Relay
It was estimated that the Mu Relay was much closer to the star that went supernova (possibly as close at 13au based on in-game star charts) but just to be lenient to naysayers lets say it was still 39au from the blast center.

Due to It’s distance from the blast center it was hit with approximately only 10 Gigaton of TNT and as a result was not damaged but was flung out of it’s orbit. Although it could have been as high as 10^6 Gigaton.

The Citadel
As stated in Mass Effect Revelation The Citadel is made from the same materials as the Mass Relays. The presidium and each arm also contains pods that produce mass effect fields the protect the wards by keeping the outer skin separate from the rest of the structures, which protects it from intense external damage. It stands to reason the Citadel (with it’s arms closed) could also sustain external hits of a Gigaton or greater.

In essence; the Citadel would have to incur a massive internalized explosion, where it is most vulnerable. To be lenient lets place the explosion at no greater than 1 Gigaton (although could be as great as 10 Gigaton).

Kinetic Barriers
The shielding afforded by kinetic barriers protects against fast moving projectiles but they do not protect against extremes of temperature, toxins, or radiation.

Could Shepard outrun the blast?
The Presidium Is 7.6 kilometers in diameter, the explosion presented in the destruction cinematic has an estimated radius of 19 kilometers. To out run an explosion of this size the average person would need either a head start of 1 hour 11 minutes and 15 seconds to escape the blast or be capable of running at 900kph for the 1 minute and 19 seconds shown between the tube destruction and the central explosion.

The Human Body
At 537 degrees celsius (1000 Fahrenheit) the human skin catches fire.
At 982 degrees celsius (1800 Fahrenheit) human bones can turn to ash
The blast that would have destroyed the Citadel would have to produce temperatures in excess of 8,000,000 degrees celsius (14,400,032 Fahrenheit) vaporizing anyone inside the blast zone.

If Shepard is shown to be breathing on earth how did he get there?....
Well it wouldn't be by falling there, that's for sure...

If the Citadel was parked about 238,855 miles (384,000km) from Earth (using the moons orbital distance as a frame of reference) it would take Shepard at least 13+ hours to reach earths outer atmosphere if he was able to propel himself at a direct vector and at the safe orbital re-entry speed of 17,500 mph (28,163 kph). This could become problematic without an envirosuit as the human respiratory system can only last up to 90 seconds within a vacuum.

Now assuming he can survive temps of up to 11,726 degrees Celsius (21,138 fahrenheit) during the re-entry stage he would now have scrubbed off most of his speed due to air friction. He still needs to be able to survive the extreme drop to the ground. During this stage he should reach his max terminal velocity speed of 126mph (203kph) once he enters past the thermosphere, making his fall last around around 1.6 hours before the ground breaks his fall. However the air from 9 kilometers and up has an average tempt of around -35 degrees celsius causing Shepard to suffer from both Hypothermia and Hypoxia making him totally incapable of controlling his fall.

This is all genuinely fascinating, but is based on the assumption that the Citadel is detroyed. This is not shown in the ending scene.  Explosions, some movement of the arms, but not outright destruction.  If we're going to apply sharp observation to other parts of the game, we have to apply it here too and go only on what we're shown, not what we assume happens off screen.

And if IT is correct and Shepard has just resisted an indoctrination attempt, what exactly are we looking at here, anyway?

All of this information I've posted is to be as evidence in favor of IT, to help demonstrate that there's no literal way for Shepard to be alive after this event and that the Shepard breathing scene contradicts this very evidence. Hence alluding to the fact that none of it could actually have happened and hence was part of a hallucination.

Anyway, I'd just like to say that I'm glad that someone is finally willing to give me something to work with and thank you for not resorting to "it was space magic" and "BioWare are lazy" ... to be honest my info was developed with the assumption that at least the presidium is destroyed and if so my analysis stand but after re-watching the destroy ending [in slow motion] there is no definitive evidence of full fledged destruction.

However, what do you suppose caused the explosion? and what is it relevance from a cinematic stand point? If not to indicate the destruction of the citadel than what?

Modifié par Salient Archer, 25 mai 2012 - 03:14 .

[RukiaKuchki]

Pelle6666 wrote...

He was probably hurt in the explosion, he is already holding his hand over that wound before Marauder Shields turns out.

This. After Shephard is hit by Harbinger's beam, he wakes up in a pool of his blood and briefly clutches his side as he sits up. The wound is there before he gets to the Citadel and before he shoots Anderson, and it's the reason he struggles to walk. I'm not trying to disprove the IT, but I think this piece of evidence has to be discounted I'm afraid.

[Salient Archer]

http://youtu.be/R35C...VQP0I4?t=4m35s 
Actually Shepard doesn't favor the wound before being shot by Marauder Shields, this video also shows that he was clearly shot in the right arm and still doesn't favor his left side. Also take note that there's no hole in his left side [which we can see clearly] but although you can't see it in this video there is a hole in his armor on the right side.

http://youtu.be/-_22QLvtmMw?t=1m44s
This video also shows that when Shepard wakes up from the beam journey he touches both his right shoulder [where MS shoots him] and also his right side [where there's a hole in his armor]

http://youtu.be/-_22QLvtmMw?t=5m15s
I must admit that in this scene it does seem like Shepard is nursing his stomach [not quite his left side though] as he approaches anderson.

http://youtu.be/-_22QLvtmMw?t=13m30s
And finally the scene in question. Notice how the camera draws attention deliberately to the wound and that this only takes place after Anderson passes away. Previous to this scene Shepard does not notice this wound at all and nor does Shepard favour it in any way. Why didn't they have him touch his upper right arm or even his right side where we can see armor damage? Why have Shepard bleed from the same spot that he shot Anderson? It's call symbolism and movie directors have used it forever to alude to a deeper story on top of the surface material.

BioWare have used subtle tells in their previous games such as Kotor so why would they pull back now with what they consider to be their magnum opus?

Modifié par Salient Archer, 25 mai 2012 - 11:37 .

[Rip504]

hoodaticus wrote...

On my very first playthrough, I took the endings at face value up until that moment. When I saw myself bleeding from the hole I shot in Anderson, I knew it was a dream, an acid-trip - something. And I knew that TIM was controlling me with his indoctrination research.

2 + 2 = 4.

Really?

A small or slightly deep cut created by the Reaper blast. After being blown up,shot,controlled,and having to push his/her wounded body to this point, The cut could have opened up wider and started to bleed more. 2+2=4 I agree.

Ever had a cut? Adrenaline,force,movement,etc all makes it bleed more. Shepard is wounded and the more Shepard struggles to move, the worse the wound becomes. That is simply medicine. How does it make it a far fetched dream?

When you "add" dream,acid trip,etc it is no longer 2+2=4. You are "adding" outside factors to the equation. Shepard's armor has been ripped and melted off,but some how Shepard did not sustain any cuts.?.
Face value is 2+2=4. What you are stating is 2+3=4??? IMO

The camera is showing you,that yes Shepard is wounded. How does that imply anything other then that? An injury/wound? This injury/wound is important to you the player,as it indicates you are wounded and may not make it. Since I am RP as Shepard,yes I would like to know if I am wounded or not. Is there any blood on Shepard before being shot,before entering the beam? If yes,then this scene could have many different potential reasons for existing.

Also this is before the final choice,what purpose and meaning does this hold concerning IT? Only to somehow indicate this is all not real?

Shepard Wins wrote...


It's almost as if it's been
taken from "Fight Club" and it seems like a very strong indicator that
the sequence on the Citadel is not real, IT or not.

This scene does not prove IT, or that the scene is not real in any way shape or form. Until Bioware states it does,as "Fightclub" eventually did,and ME did not. This is an outside factor implemented into the ME story.

In the end a wound that gets worse,will bleed more. How in any way does this indicate it is a dream etc?

[hoodaticus]

Rip504 wrote...

hoodaticus wrote...

On my very first playthrough, I took the endings at face value up until that moment. When I saw myself bleeding from the hole I shot in Anderson, I knew it was a dream, an acid-trip - something. And I knew that TIM was controlling me with his indoctrination research.

2 + 2 = 4.

Really?

A small or slightly deep cut created by the Reaper blast. After being blown up,shot,controlled,and having to push his/her wounded body to this point, The cut could have opened up wider and started to bleed more. 2+2=4 I agree.

Ever had a cut? Adrenaline,force,movement,etc all makes it bleed more. Shepard is wounded and the more Shepard struggles to move, the worse the wound becomes. That is simply medicine. How does it make it a far fetched dream?

With that much bleeding, he would never have made it to the beam.  He would have lost consciousness.

Do you know what the spleen's secondary purpose is?  When an animal is losing blood, it contracts to squeeze blood out of itself as fast as possible to help the animal stay alive.

To prove me wrong, shoot yourself in the spleen, then walk 200 yards and email a photo of the blood trail.

A blood trail that was lacking in the game, btw.

Edit: 200 yards to the beam.  200 more to the Catalyst.

Modifié par hoodaticus, 26 mai 2012 - 12:26 .

[themikefest]

^I agree

[Rip504]

hoodaticus wrote...

With that much bleeding, he would never have made it to the beam.  He would have lost consciousness.

Do you know what the spleen's secondary purpose is?  When an animal is losing blood, it contracts to squeeze blood out of itself as fast as possible to help the animal stay alive.

To prove me wrong, shoot yourself in the spleen, then walk 200 yards and email a photo of the blood trail.

A blood trail that was lacking in the game, btw.

What? I did not see pools of blood,nor did I imply there were??? Did I say critical? Or just a cut? That got worse?

What does any of what you said,have to do with anything I said? I have had my head cut in 2 different spots(I needed stitches) and was covered in more blood then Shepard was. I did not pass out. I was awake and fully aware for hours after the event. Maybe I misunderstood what you said,but I simply stated a wound.

o

Modifié par Rip504, 26 mai 2012 - 12:37 .

[lerpumpkinzero]

I can see how the shot could be symbolism, but I can also see Rip504's point as well. To answer the question of why Bioware would bother to show the wound (it doesn't necessarily have to be a gun wound, right?) if it wasn't related to IT, I think it would be to show that Shepard will not survive, even if she didn't choose any of endings, the wound (from the reaper blast?) would kill her. Perhaps it would make the thought of sacrificing Shepard easier to swallow for the player, because by showing the wound, we know Shepard will die anyway. Just a thought. Not saying I'm right and that IT theory is condemned, but I'm bringing it up as a possible explanation.

Also, adrenaline certainly would prevent Shepard from noticing a wound. It happens in real life too. Adrenaline can reduce pain so that a person is unaware of their injuries until later. Without feeling the pain of that particular wound, she would be able to move around, but also make it worse. Perhaps she is even less likely to notice a wound in her side than in her chest, neck or other area that is vital, however a side wound could still be fatal.

I think you can realistically look at the wound through a non-IT context, as well as an IT context, without being "stupid" or "desperate". I think for this particular clue, either context could work. That's what so fun, and frustrating, about IT theory, I think. I think that's what makes arguments flare up so easily as well (also, it's the internet). Many clues can be taken in the literal context as well as the IT context, so when people see it through one side, the other side just seems ridiculous, even though both can work.

Personally, I would love for IT to be true, and the gunshot wound symbolism would be really cool and clever if it was, along with the other evidence supporting IT that is out there. Some people (usually those who don't play video games) still can't wrap their mind around the idea that video games are more than just games, but storytelling tools.

All theories should be questioned. People should never stop asking questions. Whether people question the literal ending (as ITers do) or people question IT theory, I think it is a valid and important exploration. If people are rude about it (on either side), then that's just unfortunate.