Overall, I liked it so my comments are in the nature of picky details..... (and what is 'her' name?) Please forgive mistakes in terminology.
When 'she' reaches for the book and Cullen gets it for her - the book leaps into his hand. Perhaps having him reach outside of the frame so that his hand comes down with the book in it. Also gives an opportunity to focus in on how close they have to stand in order to get this book ;-)
Some of the children are sitting with body parts inside the floor
'Her' hand sinks into the book when she is sitting in front of the children
When Cullen is talking to Wynne there is some fairly bad chin clipping with his armor. If you angle him towards Wynn just a little more, he wouldn't have to turn his head far enough for the clipping to be an issue.
The close ups while 'she' is talking make is seem like she is talking to herself since you can't hear anything or see anyone. Could the camera pull back just enough to show the tops of the children's heads to make it obvious she is talking to the children. And/or 'ambient' dialogue', could you have her asking simple questions? ' ....but must never rule over him, what does this mean?' You could even use the responses from the Mage Origin story. Which would give her an opportunity to laugh at the boy's response. Or some simple questions or story so that her mouth isn't moving with no sound.
I am NOT a big fan of Wynne (my GWs have heard this speech far too many times), but this seems to be a nice use of existing voice over lines and adds a bit to the 'pre-Origin' story of their romance.
I thought the music vs dialogue was about right. There was one point when Cullen says 'ummm' (or something similar) and it is very hard to hear on my laptop.
Footsteps for Wynne walking up might show how focused he is on (inappropriately) watching her. To the point that he doesn't hear Wynne. But adding (sound for) one set footsteps raises the issue of needing to add sound for all footsteps. Cullen stepping back, 'her' walking over to her chair/desk, Cullen turning to face Wynne. Sounds for the armor would raise the same issue because you KNOW there is someone who knows each sound that armor would make and complain that the sound effect for the armor didn't match Cullen's movements in the armor.
Cutscene Design Guidelines and Criticism Thread
Débuté par
DahliaLynn
, mai 20 2012 08:47
Retour en haut
#52
Posté 24 juillet 2012 - 10:54
DahliaLynn
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First off, I think there's really much improvement. I can better follow the characters now, the scene flows more naturally and only have a few comments to share as far as where I felt certain issues stood out.
At 0:04 The woman arrives at the library bookshelf, and we see Cullen far in the distance slightly looking, though at no particular spot. Immediately after, the notion is the woman has just begun to look for a book and Cullen is suddenly there. It seems like I should have seen him begin to walk previously in order to arrive by her side. Although you may have wanted to surprise the viewer, (not sure) that wasn't what I felt. Instead it felt inconsistent. If your intention was not to surprise, I would show him in the wide shot slightly turning to look, then move in to a medium for him to actually turn his attention towards her and begin walking. Then cut to the next shot that you have of her choosing the book, and him walking into frame.
Up until 0:39 is really nice. I would only move or angle the camera slightly more to the right to give him more of the "look" room at 0:39. For me that would feel better.
From the point on where Wynne begins talking and I basically would change the camera positions to better suit the conversation. Right now, it seems you have two cameras lying right in between them focused on each. (That's fine on occasion for closeups but it seems to be the dominant camera positions for both mediums and closeups)
What makes things slightly uncomfortable is that I'm missing "Over the shoulder" shots to show them relative to each other while they interact. You actually do that with a few shots of both together, but I feel slighly boxed in. What I would do, is take an "over the shoulder" camera and move it to Wynne's far right, so that we see her profile in the foreground and Cullen being the focus. The same exact thing with an "over Cullens shoulder" shot to show Wynne with Cullen in the foreground. Then, when you use closeups, you add another camera with a similar angle to the OTS shots with a lower FOV setting.
I still feel lost when Wynne talks (this time only on occasion) , so perhaps the new positions may help. In addition, Wynne says "Your actions have consequences, and they affect those around you," you then cut to another shot, but what she is saying is too important to cut to the next shot. I would instead cut to her in a closeup if anything, because a strong point is being made. (I lost her when you cut to the woman and kids shot). Better to see Cullen's reaction to her strong words as opposed to seeing the kids. I would show the kids only after she has made her point. When Wynne talks more about the woman at approx 1:14 that's perfect, you zoom in on the object of her monologue which further emphasizes her words.
I would also move the wide shot with the woman and children slightly lower, and to the right side. Why would I do this? it could be that it is very close to the 180 degree line, not sure
I guess the jist is that there are two lines here. One is between Wynne and Cullen, the other between Cullen Wynne and the Woman and children, so moving the women and children shot slightly more to the right may feel a bit better. For a zoom-in you can have a more direct angle as you have done. Also your two shot of Wynne and Cullen initially is fine as well.. You could even move it more to the right keeping the angle focused on them, and further emphasizing the prominent side your shots are taking in the line between Wynne and Cullen and the woman and kids.
The only way to really tell in the end is to try it and see what it looks like. I recently had an issue with a threesome style thing, but solved it by keeping the camera consistent between each character interaction while moving in between the three characters.
All in all, very nice work
In my opinion just a few tweaks and minor animation/item fixes and you're done:wizard:
At 0:04 The woman arrives at the library bookshelf, and we see Cullen far in the distance slightly looking, though at no particular spot. Immediately after, the notion is the woman has just begun to look for a book and Cullen is suddenly there. It seems like I should have seen him begin to walk previously in order to arrive by her side. Although you may have wanted to surprise the viewer, (not sure) that wasn't what I felt. Instead it felt inconsistent. If your intention was not to surprise, I would show him in the wide shot slightly turning to look, then move in to a medium for him to actually turn his attention towards her and begin walking. Then cut to the next shot that you have of her choosing the book, and him walking into frame.
Up until 0:39 is really nice. I would only move or angle the camera slightly more to the right to give him more of the "look" room at 0:39. For me that would feel better.
From the point on where Wynne begins talking and I basically would change the camera positions to better suit the conversation. Right now, it seems you have two cameras lying right in between them focused on each. (That's fine on occasion for closeups but it seems to be the dominant camera positions for both mediums and closeups)
What makes things slightly uncomfortable is that I'm missing "Over the shoulder" shots to show them relative to each other while they interact. You actually do that with a few shots of both together, but I feel slighly boxed in. What I would do, is take an "over the shoulder" camera and move it to Wynne's far right, so that we see her profile in the foreground and Cullen being the focus. The same exact thing with an "over Cullens shoulder" shot to show Wynne with Cullen in the foreground. Then, when you use closeups, you add another camera with a similar angle to the OTS shots with a lower FOV setting.
I still feel lost when Wynne talks (this time only on occasion) , so perhaps the new positions may help. In addition, Wynne says "Your actions have consequences, and they affect those around you," you then cut to another shot, but what she is saying is too important to cut to the next shot. I would instead cut to her in a closeup if anything, because a strong point is being made. (I lost her when you cut to the woman and kids shot). Better to see Cullen's reaction to her strong words as opposed to seeing the kids. I would show the kids only after she has made her point. When Wynne talks more about the woman at approx 1:14 that's perfect, you zoom in on the object of her monologue which further emphasizes her words.
I would also move the wide shot with the woman and children slightly lower, and to the right side. Why would I do this? it could be that it is very close to the 180 degree line, not sure
I guess the jist is that there are two lines here. One is between Wynne and Cullen, the other between Cullen Wynne and the Woman and children, so moving the women and children shot slightly more to the right may feel a bit better. For a zoom-in you can have a more direct angle as you have done. Also your two shot of Wynne and Cullen initially is fine as well.. You could even move it more to the right keeping the angle focused on them, and further emphasizing the prominent side your shots are taking in the line between Wynne and Cullen and the woman and kids.
The only way to really tell in the end is to try it and see what it looks like. I recently had an issue with a threesome style thing, but solved it by keeping the camera consistent between each character interaction while moving in between the three characters.
All in all, very nice work
In my opinion just a few tweaks and minor animation/item fixes and you're done:wizard:
Modifié par DahliaLynn, 24 juillet 2012 - 10:58 .
#53
Posté 25 juillet 2012 - 08:58
Yara C.
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Well done, Allacia. Great to see the improvements and how the flow is now enhanced.
I support nearly all the comments above. And especially what Dahlia mentioned about OTS.
I will mention something additionally where it felt not right for me. At 1:15, 1:23, 1:44 and 1:55 you have cut to a single / closeup of the woman. More often than in the first version. The last one is fine.
But I would at least drop one of the former closeups and question the framing. This serie of closeups is in my opinion not balanced enough.
Why ? One reason is already mentioned by MerAnne. The woman is occupied with the children and therefore a single shot isolates her to much from them.
But whose scene is it in general? In the sense that it can only be one person who rules a scene? For me, it is Cullen´s scene.
With the series of closeups of the woman starting at 1:15 you put more focus on her. But beside 1:55 we see no re/action (view, head turn, facial expression) related to Cullen or Wynne. In my perception it feels not right to give her here the same level of importance by choosing this framing. She is the object of views (yeah, sounds hard) and the topic of the conversation. But it is not about her feelings, thoughts...Not at this point of time.
To reduce the density and the focus given by the framing of these shots would enhance for me the meaning of the last shot of her as well.
Regarding your question on sound effects I ´d like to comment on this as well.
In general I would ask if a (certain) sound effect should have an additional layer of meaning ? Or is the inclusion of sound effects a matter of realism? Cinematic does not mean realistic. The goal is the impact on the audience, not to create an image of real life. (That has nothing to do with realism regarding facial expressions, gestures, seamless natural animations...where I am quite finicky as well.)
Do I miss sound effects in your scene? No. If there would be no music I would miss something. But it works fine for me as it is without sound effects.
Ambient dialogues? Here I have to disagree with MerAnne. The conversation between Cullen and Wynne has a certain privacy. If ambient dialogues would be audible it would break up the privacy of their conversation for me. A wave of realism would swap over me;) If we could hear the voices of the woman and the children - then they must hear as well what Cullen and Wynne are talking about, no?
Thank you for sharing and inviting us to reflection and comments. Keep up the good work!
Edit: typos...
I support nearly all the comments above. And especially what Dahlia mentioned about OTS.
I will mention something additionally where it felt not right for me. At 1:15, 1:23, 1:44 and 1:55 you have cut to a single / closeup of the woman. More often than in the first version. The last one is fine.
But I would at least drop one of the former closeups and question the framing. This serie of closeups is in my opinion not balanced enough.
Why ? One reason is already mentioned by MerAnne. The woman is occupied with the children and therefore a single shot isolates her to much from them.
But whose scene is it in general? In the sense that it can only be one person who rules a scene? For me, it is Cullen´s scene.
With the series of closeups of the woman starting at 1:15 you put more focus on her. But beside 1:55 we see no re/action (view, head turn, facial expression) related to Cullen or Wynne. In my perception it feels not right to give her here the same level of importance by choosing this framing. She is the object of views (yeah, sounds hard) and the topic of the conversation. But it is not about her feelings, thoughts...Not at this point of time.
To reduce the density and the focus given by the framing of these shots would enhance for me the meaning of the last shot of her as well.
Regarding your question on sound effects I ´d like to comment on this as well.
In general I would ask if a (certain) sound effect should have an additional layer of meaning ? Or is the inclusion of sound effects a matter of realism? Cinematic does not mean realistic. The goal is the impact on the audience, not to create an image of real life. (That has nothing to do with realism regarding facial expressions, gestures, seamless natural animations...where I am quite finicky as well.)
Do I miss sound effects in your scene? No. If there would be no music I would miss something. But it works fine for me as it is without sound effects.
Ambient dialogues? Here I have to disagree with MerAnne. The conversation between Cullen and Wynne has a certain privacy. If ambient dialogues would be audible it would break up the privacy of their conversation for me. A wave of realism would swap over me;) If we could hear the voices of the woman and the children - then they must hear as well what Cullen and Wynne are talking about, no?
Thank you for sharing and inviting us to reflection and comments. Keep up the good work!
Edit: typos...
Modifié par Yara Cousland, 13 août 2012 - 05:29 .
#54
Guest_Allacia_*
Posté 25 juillet 2012 - 10:07
Guest_Allacia_*
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Wow - thank you everyone for such detailed and observant responses. Please forgive me for not responding in detail right away - I need a bit of time to digest what has been offered here and review the work done so far. I am glad the scene is improved from the first - it means I am making progress! This has been one informative exercise. :-)
#55
Posté 26 juillet 2012 - 10:35
MerAnne
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Yara Cousland - feel free to disagree, I'm not always right! I think your suggestion solves my 'issue' with the woman talking to herself. If there were fewer closeups, I don't think that I would get the feeling that Cullen was in love with a woman who talks to herself. ;-) The current closeups, framing, and lack of voices gives me the feeling that she is sitting there talking to no one. If the amount of time spent on closeups was reduced, I don't think that I would have that reaction.
#56
Guest_Allacia_*
Posté 26 juillet 2012 - 04:06
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MerAnne wrote...
If there were fewer closeups, I don't think that I would get the feeling that Cullen was in love with a woman who talks to herself. ;-) .
I see nothing wrong with a woman talking to herself - I do it all the time.
#57
Posté 26 juillet 2012 - 04:48
DahliaLynn
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Quick note: I very much agree with Yara on her points of sound effects, music and realism of ambient dialogue. What you *can* do, is add their voices using a very low volume to emphasize the fact that they are far away, even when in close up(with only a slight volume raise), keeping Wynne and Cullen's dialogue in the audible foreground. This means you may have to commit to having sound effects for armor movements and steps, but they need not be dominant in the sound mix. The music definitely serves its purpose for creating the overall atmosphere of the scene, be it a realistic cinematic experience, or somewhat "impressionistic", as long as the effect of the scene is successfully communicated
#58
Guest_Allacia_*
Posté 26 juillet 2012 - 09:25
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I thought it might be a good idea to put all these suggestions as annotations on the youtube video.
I figured if anyone else is lurking they might find the visual example of this discussion helpful (though it does break the experience for those watching this for the first time). Doing this has also helped me organise my thoughts so now I can use this as reference for when I sit down to finish this scene off.
I hope this is helpful.
I figured if anyone else is lurking they might find the visual example of this discussion helpful (though it does break the experience for those watching this for the first time). Doing this has also helped me organise my thoughts so now I can use this as reference for when I sit down to finish this scene off.
I hope this is helpful.
