702 réponses à ce sujet

[Hoid]

I am gonna laugh so hard when the EC disproves the IT. That alone will almost make it worth it.

[dreman9999]

llbountyhunter wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...


 The reapers can manipulate dreams...http://www.youtube.c...JFRvDUp4#t=690s

The reseachers on project rho in Arrival also taked about strange dreams  when they were being indoctrinated.

http://www.youtube.c...tYTITiTw#t=249s 

Base on this and what your saying. The reapers can use Shepards dreams to try to indoctrinate him.

Dreams can be symptom but they do not indoctrinate. Sheaprds dreams are a natuarl reapose to normal stress or PTSD. Mac just fails to get the player involved emotionally like he does with everything else he has done in ME.

I almost  took you seriously.

First he says reaper control organics with the limbic system....The he bringsup the point that the limbic system control dreams. But he ignore the fact that the reaper can effect organics dreams after he says they control the part of the brain that does.....

This is sad and funny at the same time..

[balance5050]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Going from the in game evidence, everycycle has their own indoctrinated splinter group who wants to control the reapers, and by extension, every cycle has their own TIM that starts it.

Uh, no: we've had indications of exactly one other cycle that even attempted a Control strategy. That is not evidence of every cycle wanting to do so by any means.

Vigil says that every cycle plays out in the same way dude... Should I grab a youtube vid to remind you?

[Dean_the_Young]

Malditor wrote...

I'm not an IT person, well I'm an IT person for my job lol, but I don't think indoctrination would have presented itself until the Reapers were actually active. Therefore it would have started during ME1.
I'm not for or against IT though. Just pointing out a possible error in your thinking.

Except the ME1 lore establishes that Indoctrination doesn't work like that. It's not a long-term affect: it's an increasingly debilitative state that destroys the mind. Indoctrinated agents are on a scale of monthes, not decades.

The only way to keep functionality from decreasing is via Reaper implants to compensate... except the implants that indoctrinate TIM are in the ME3 timeframe, whereas if the artifact-implants had indoctrinated him TIM wouldn't have been in the role he was in either his comic or in the ME2-era timeline.

[balance5050]

Hoid wrote...

I am gonna laugh so hard when the EC disproves the IT. That alone will almost make it worth it.

All the wrong reasons huh? I'm sure that will work out great for your karma.

[dreman9999]

balance5050 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Going from the in game evidence, everycycle has their own indoctrinated splinter group who wants to control the reapers, and by extension, every cycle has their own TIM that starts it.

Uh, no: we've had indications of exactly one other cycle that even attempted a Control strategy. That is not evidence of every cycle wanting to do so by any means.

Vigil says that every cycle plays out in the same way dude... Should I grab a youtube vid to remind you?

And we have Vendetta to back that.

[Seboist]

Tom Lehrer wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Indoctrination is subtle...

And Mac Walters is anything but subtle.

Here is a child. The child is now dead. Feel sad. I SAID FEEL SAD DAMNIT!!

And then you see the same child at the end ofthe game?
You don't see something is going on here?

I see Mac trying to do something far beyond his skill level and failing horribly.

It's utterly hilarious how are the ITers are completely oblivious to hack writing. This is also the same guy who had an Alliance defence committee act like complete blubbering morons groveling at the feet of Shepard to stroke the player's ego in the intro.

This is the worst kind of fanboyism I've ever seen.

[Malditor]

balance5050 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Going from the in game evidence, everycycle has their own indoctrinated splinter group who wants to control the reapers, and by extension, every cycle has their own TIM that starts it.

Uh, no: we've had indications of exactly one other cycle that even attempted a Control strategy. That is not evidence of every cycle wanting to do so by any means.

Vigil says that every cycle plays out in the same way dude... Should I grab a youtube vid to remind you?

Isn't one of the key points of IT that you shouldn't believe anything the Reapers say, including those already indoctrinated?

[dreman9999]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Malditor wrote...

I'm not an IT person, well I'm an IT person for my job lol, but I don't think indoctrination would have presented itself until the Reapers were actually active. Therefore it would have started during ME1.
I'm not for or against IT though. Just pointing out a possible error in your thinking.

Except the ME1 lore establishes that Indoctrination doesn't work like that. It's not a long-term affect: it's an increasingly debilitative state that destroys the mind. Indoctrinated agents are on a scale of monthes, not decades.

The only way to keep functionality from decreasing is via Reaper implants to compensate... except the implants that indoctrinate TIM are in the ME3 timeframe, whereas if the artifact-implants had indoctrinated him TIM wouldn't have been in the role he was in either his comic or in the ME2-era timeline.

 
http://masseffect.wi...#Indoctrination 
"Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years."
.....:huh:It works like that.

[Tom Lehrer]

dreman9999 wrote...

http://masseffect.wi...#Indoctrination 
The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions. 
.....Didn't you just say the reaper were using the limbic system to control organics?....Dreams are control by the limbic system and reapers can control that.....That alone is a pont towards Shepard in teh prosses of indoctriantion.

What the hell are you talking about? 

The Reapers attack the limbic system which is the mind. TIM attacked motor function not the mind, two very differnet parts of the brain. You have taken my point so far out on context its a wonder I could even follow what you are saying here at all.

Sheaprds dreams are the result of stress in game. Out of game the dreams are Mac's half assed attempt to make us feel sad about the kid.

Modifié par Tom Lehrer, 21 mai 2012 - 05:58 .

[jijeebo]

Malditor wrote...

Why is it an "evil" version of yourself that embraces the kid? I find it funny that so much is stated as fact whe it's really just conjecture or assumption.

I always took it as Shepard torturing himself with the image of himself reaching the kid and protecting him because Shepard never managed to do this back on Earth. The two of them smile because they are happy and the fire is symbolic of Shepard knowing that he failed to protect the child and thus he died and was denied any future happiness.


... But that's just me, and I suck at interpretating things.

Modifié par jijeebo, 21 mai 2012 - 05:57 .

[balance5050]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Malditor wrote...

I'm not an IT person, well I'm an IT person for my job lol, but I don't think indoctrination would have presented itself until the Reapers were actually active. Therefore it would have started during ME1.
I'm not for or against IT though. Just pointing out a possible error in your thinking.

Except the ME1 lore establishes that Indoctrination doesn't work like that. It's not a long-term affect: it's an increasingly debilitative state that destroys the mind. Indoctrinated agents are on a scale of monthes, not decades.

The only way to keep functionality from decreasing is via Reaper implants to compensate... except the implants that indoctrinate TIM are in the ME3 timeframe, whereas if the artifact-implants had indoctrinated him TIM wouldn't have been in the role he was in either his comic or in the ME2-era timeline.

Actually the entirre games lore tells you that indoctrination can be implimented in many different way, Saren was just one example of hundreds.

Even the codex says we don't fully understand it and obviously they're right, considering Rana, Aequitas, and all the other anomilies.

[dreman9999]

Malditor wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Going from the in game evidence, everycycle has their own indoctrinated splinter group who wants to control the reapers, and by extension, every cycle has their own TIM that starts it.

Uh, no: we've had indications of exactly one other cycle that even attempted a Control strategy. That is not evidence of every cycle wanting to do so by any means.

Vigil says that every cycle plays out in the same way dude... Should I grab a youtube vid to remind you?

Isn't one of the key points of IT that you shouldn't believe anything the Reapers say, including those already indoctrinated?

Vigil is the vi you meet on Illos, the reapers didn't even know he was there.

[Dean_the_Young]

balance5050 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Going from the in game evidence, everycycle has their own indoctrinated splinter group who wants to control the reapers, and by extension, every cycle has their own TIM that starts it.

Uh, no: we've had indications of exactly one other cycle that even attempted a Control strategy. That is not evidence of every cycle wanting to do so by any means.

Vigil says that every cycle plays out in the same way dude... Should I grab a youtube vid to remind you?

Please show me where Vigil says that... and if you were referring to the Prothean VI on Thessia and not the VI that only appeared in ME1, find where he was referring to the Control group in particular rather than the Cycle as a whole.

After all, the Reapers could simply create a schism regardless of what the dominant desire is: your position demands that every cycle choose the same one, destroy. If a Cycle was trying for Control, then the Reapers could simply create a Destroy-splinter group: the gain for the Reapers isn't in the objective, but in the schism itself.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 21 mai 2012 - 06:06 .

[Seboist]

Hoid wrote...

I am gonna laugh so hard when the EC disproves the IT. That alone will almost make it worth it.

These fanatics are still going to cling to their moronic "theory" regardless. I took a peek into their thread the other day and they were trying to find some deep meaning in the rubble of the "Shepard lives" ending... just wow.

Freud could have written a series of books on these people.

[Malditor]

dreman9999 wrote...

Malditor wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Going from the in game evidence, everycycle has their own indoctrinated splinter group who wants to control the reapers, and by extension, every cycle has their own TIM that starts it.

Uh, no: we've had indications of exactly one other cycle that even attempted a Control strategy. That is not evidence of every cycle wanting to do so by any means.

Vigil says that every cycle plays out in the same way dude... Should I grab a youtube vid to remind you?

Isn't one of the key points of IT that you shouldn't believe anything the Reapers say, including those already indoctrinated?

Vigil is the vi you meet on Illos, the reapers didn't even know he was there.

Doh, misread the name hah. Sorry.

[dreman9999]

Tom Lehrer wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

http://masseffect.wi...#Indoctrination 
The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions. 
.....Didn't you just say the reaper were using the limbic system to control organics?....Dreams are control by the limbic system and reapers can control that.....That alone is a pont towards Shepard in teh prosses of indoctriantion.

What the hell are you talking about? 

The Reapers attack the limbic system which is the mind. TIM attacked motor function not the mind, two very differnet parts of the brain. You have taken my point so far out on context its a wonder I could even follow what you are saying here at all.

Sheaprds dreams are the result of stress in game. Out of game the dreams are Mac's half assed attempt to make us feel sad about the kid.

http://masseffect.wi...#Indoctrination 
The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.


It says they control it and us it to have the victem susceptible to suggestions...Know were does it say the reaper us the limbic system to control motor functions.

[Dean_the_Young]

balance5050 wrote...

Actually the entirre games lore tells you that indoctrination can be implimented in many different way, Saren was just one example of hundreds.

Indoctrination is implanted in two ways: the field effect (what Reapers and specific Reaper artifacts emit), and implants. All indoctrination weakens the mind and capabilities of the subject over time, however.

Even the codex says we don't fully understand it and obviously they're right, considering Rana, Aequitas, and all the other anomilies.

They don't understand all of it, but they do understand parts of it. The debilitative nature of it was a key point in Saren's character of ME1: Sovereign wasn't risking ruining its best agent.

[dreman9999]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Going from the in game evidence, everycycle has their own indoctrinated splinter group who wants to control the reapers, and by extension, every cycle has their own TIM that starts it.

Uh, no: we've had indications of exactly one other cycle that even attempted a Control strategy. That is not evidence of every cycle wanting to do so by any means.

Vigil says that every cycle plays out in the same way dude... Should I grab a youtube vid to remind you?

Please show me where Vigil says that... and if you were referring to the Prothean VI on Thessia and not the VI that only appeared in ME1, find where he was referring to the Control group in particular rather than the Cycle as a whole.

After all, the Reapers could simply create a schism regardless of what the dominant desire is: your position demands that every cycle choose the same one, destroy. If a Cycle was trying for Control, then the Reapers could simply create a Destroy-splinter group: the gain for the Reapers isn't in the objective, but in the schism itself.

But the reaper do make the 
schism regardless of what the dominant desire.....The point still is that the crucible was still madeto stop the reapers.

[Dean_the_Young]

dreman9999 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Malditor wrote...

I'm not an IT person, well I'm an IT person for my job lol, but I don't think indoctrination would have presented itself until the Reapers were actually active. Therefore it would have started during ME1.
I'm not for or against IT though. Just pointing out a possible error in your thinking.

Except the ME1 lore establishes that Indoctrination doesn't work like that. It's not a long-term affect: it's an increasingly debilitative state that destroys the mind. Indoctrinated agents are on a scale of monthes, not decades.

The only way to keep functionality from decreasing is via Reaper implants to compensate... except the implants that indoctrinate TIM are in the ME3 timeframe, whereas if the artifact-implants had indoctrinated him TIM wouldn't have been in the role he was in either his comic or in the ME2-era timeline.

 
http://masseffect.wi...#Indoctrination 
"Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years."
.....:huh:It works like that.

...why yes, thank you for supporting my point that indoctrination is not an indefinite state to last for decades, as would be required for TIM if he were indoctrinated the entire time.

[Dean_the_Young]

dreman9999 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Going from the in game evidence, everycycle has their own indoctrinated splinter group who wants to control the reapers, and by extension, every cycle has their own TIM that starts it.

Uh, no: we've had indications of exactly one other cycle that even attempted a Control strategy. That is not evidence of every cycle wanting to do so by any means.

Vigil says that every cycle plays out in the same way dude... Should I grab a youtube vid to remind you?

Please show me where Vigil says that... and if you were referring to the Prothean VI on Thessia and not the VI that only appeared in ME1, find where he was referring to the Control group in particular rather than the Cycle as a whole.

After all, the Reapers could simply create a schism regardless of what the dominant desire is: your position demands that every cycle choose the same one, destroy. If a Cycle was trying for Control, then the Reapers could simply create a Destroy-splinter group: the gain for the Reapers isn't in the objective, but in the schism itself.

But the reaper do make the schism regardless of what the dominant desire.....The point still is that the crucible was still madeto stop the reapers.

While it's charming that you're trying to help, you're not tracking on what we're actually talking about here... or you have the most awkward way of phrasing agreement with me.  Please try again.

[dreman9999]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Actually the entirre games lore tells you that indoctrination can be implimented in many different way, Saren was just one example of hundreds.

Indoctrination is implanted in two ways: the field effect (what Reapers and specific Reaper artifacts emit), and implants. All indoctrination weakens the mind and capabilities of the subject over time, however.

Even the codex says we don't fully understand it and obviously they're right, considering Rana, Aequitas, and all the other anomilies.

They don't understand all of it, but they do understand parts of it. The debilitative nature of it was a key point in Saren's character of ME1: Sovereign wasn't risking ruining its best agent.

1. And indoctrination come in stages. It can be quick or last for years. That's his point.
http://masseffect.wi...#Indoctrination 
Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years. 
2.But they still understood it the point of understanding it symtoms. The only thing Sonvergin or any reaper would care about is to make sure they don't understand it tothe point of controling it like what happend with cerberus in ME3.

[dreman9999]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Malditor wrote...

I'm not an IT person, well I'm an IT person for my job lol, but I don't think indoctrination would have presented itself until the Reapers were actually active. Therefore it would have started during ME1.
I'm not for or against IT though. Just pointing out a possible error in your thinking.

Except the ME1 lore establishes that Indoctrination doesn't work like that. It's not a long-term affect: it's an increasingly debilitative state that destroys the mind. Indoctrinated agents are on a scale of monthes, not decades.

The only way to keep functionality from decreasing is via Reaper implants to compensate... except the implants that indoctrinate TIM are in the ME3 timeframe, whereas if the artifact-implants had indoctrinated him TIM wouldn't have been in the role he was in either his comic or in the ME2-era timeline.

 
http://masseffect.wi...#Indoctrination 
"Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years."
.....:huh:It works like that.

...why yes, thank you for supporting my point that indoctrination is not an indefinite state to last for decades, as would be required for TIM if he were indoctrinated the entire time.

What does..."Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years." mean?
Your not understanding how much control the reapers have over indoctriantion.

[balance5050]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Going from the in game evidence, everycycle has their own indoctrinated splinter group who wants to control the reapers, and by extension, every cycle has their own TIM that starts it.

Uh, no: we've had indications of exactly one other cycle that even attempted a Control strategy. That is not evidence of every cycle wanting to do so by any means.

Vigil says that every cycle plays out in the same way dude... Should I grab a youtube vid to remind you?

Please show me where Vigil says that... and if you were referring to the Prothean VI on Thessia and not the VI that only appeared in ME1, find where he was referring to the Control group in particular rather than the Cycle as a whole.

After all, the Reapers could simply create a schism regardless of what the dominant desire is: your position demands that every cycle choose the same one, destroy. If a Cycle was trying for Control, then the Reapers could simply create a Destroy-splinter group: the gain for the Reapers isn't in the objective, but in the schism itself.

"Later we discovered that they were indoctrinated"

"sounds like history is repeating itself"

"our studies of past ages have lead us to beleive that time is cyclical, many patterns repeat, - THE SAME CONFLICTS ARE EXPRESSED IN EVERY CYCLE."

http://www.youtube.c...K0WYH6xE#t=70s 

[Dean_the_Young]

dreman9999 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Actually the entirre games lore tells you that indoctrination can be implimented in many different way, Saren was just one example of hundreds.

Indoctrination is implanted in two ways: the field effect (what Reapers and specific Reaper artifacts emit), and implants. All indoctrination weakens the mind and capabilities of the subject over time, however.

Even the codex says we don't fully understand it and obviously they're right, considering Rana, Aequitas, and all the other anomilies.

They don't understand all of it, but they do understand parts of it. The debilitative nature of it was a key point in Saren's character of ME1: Sovereign wasn't risking ruining its best agent.

1. And indoctrination come in stages. It can be quick or last for years. That's his point.
http://masseffect.wi...#Indoctrination 
Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years. 

And his point is invalidated that for TIM to be indoctrinated from the start, he'd have to be indoctrinated for decades.

Understand the magnitude difference. Indoctrination is short to medium-term. It is not a long-term affliction. TIM has passed into the long-term from his initial exposure to Reaper tech, which he was already a clear non-normal at the same time.

2.But they still understood it the point of understanding it symtoms. The only thing Sonvergin or any reaper would care about is to make sure they don't understand it tothe point of controling it like what happend with cerberus in ME3.

This is irrelevant to what we are actually discussing.