702 réponses à ce sujet

[llbountyhunter]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Going from the in game evidence, everycycle has their own indoctrinated splinter group who wants to control the reapers, and by extension, every cycle has their own TIM that starts it.

Uh, no: we've had indications of exactly one other cycle that even attempted a Control strategy. That is not evidence of every cycle wanting to do so by any means.

Vigil says that every cycle plays out in the same way dude... Should I grab a youtube vid to remind you?

Please show me where Vigil says that... and if you were referring to the Prothean VI on Thessia and not the VI that only appeared in ME1, find where he was referring to the Control group in particular rather than the Cycle as a whole.

After all, the Reapers could simply create a schism regardless of what the dominant desire is: your position demands that every cycle choose the same one, destroy. If a Cycle was trying for Control, then the Reapers could simply create a Destroy-splinter group: the gain for the Reapers isn't in the objective, but in the schism itself.

actually i dont think they would make a destroy splinter group.... if the majority of the cycle was going for control, doesnt that just mean that the tactic worked?

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 21 mai 2012 - 06:10 .

[balance5050]

I like IT because it's fun to talk about and there is an intelligent answer for everything, unlike the "bioware sucks" people out there.

[mauro2222]

balance5050 wrote...

"Later we discovered that they were indoctrinated"

"sounds like history is repeating itself"

"our studies of past ages have lead us to beleive that time is cyclical, many patterns repeat, - THE SAME CONFLICTS ARE EXPRESSED IN EVERY CYCLE."

http://www.youtube.c...K0WYH6xE#t=70s

That could also mean Rachni Wars, Krogan Wars, Geth Wars... all of them to weaken the galaxy.

We have the Metacon wars with the Protheans.

[balance5050]

mauro2222 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

"Later we discovered that they were indoctrinated"

"sounds like history is repeating itself"

"our studies of past ages have lead us to beleive that time is cyclical, many patterns repeat, - THE SAME CONFLICTS ARE EXPRESSED IN EVERY CYCLE."

http://www.youtube.c...K0WYH6xE#t=70s

That could also mean Rachni Wars, Krogan Wars, Geth Wars... all of them to weaken the galaxy.

We have the Metacon wars with the Protheans.

Very good!

[Dean_the_Young]

balance5050 wrote...

"Later we discovered that they were indoctrinated"

"sounds like history is repeating itself"

"our studies of past ages have lead us to beleive that time is cyclical, many patterns repeat, - THE SAME CONFLICTS ARE EXPRESSED IN EVERY CYCLE."

http://www.youtube.c...K0WYH6xE#t=70s 

And yet not in the exact same way: we already know that our cycle has not been a mere repitition of the Prothean cycle, simply by talking with Javik.

Your problem is that you're trying to read an absolute literalism from a generalization... even though the the preceding sentence fragment disclaims an absolute (many patterns, as opposed to all). Infact, the very statement your sighting is a philosophical belief, not an assertion of absolute fact.

The VI does not provide any standing or evidence that all Reaping Cycles see the Reapers create a control-based schism. The VI tells of exactly one other schism: the Protheans own. And even that is different from ours, because while the Prothean schism was created by the Reapers the Cerberus attempt is neither a schism (Cerberus was already a seperate group) nor was it caused by the Reapers (Cerberus sought Control on its own motivations).

[dreman9999]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Actually the entirre games lore tells you that indoctrination can be implimented in many different way, Saren was just one example of hundreds.

Indoctrination is implanted in two ways: the field effect (what Reapers and specific Reaper artifacts emit), and implants. All indoctrination weakens the mind and capabilities of the subject over time, however.

Even the codex says we don't fully understand it and obviously they're right, considering Rana, Aequitas, and all the other anomilies.

They don't understand all of it, but they do understand parts of it. The debilitative nature of it was a key point in Saren's character of ME1: Sovereign wasn't risking ruining its best agent.

1. And indoctrination come in stages. It can be quick or last for years. That's his point.
http://masseffect.wi...#Indoctrination 
Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years. 

And his point is invalidated that for TIM to be indoctrinated from the start, he'd have to be indoctrinated for decades.

Understand the magnitude difference. Indoctrination is short to medium-term. It is not a long-term affliction. TIM has passed into the long-term from his initial exposure to Reaper tech, which he was already a clear non-normal at the same time.

2.But they still understood it the point of understanding it symtoms. The only thing Sonvergin or any reaper would care about is to make sure they don't understand it tothe point of controling it like what happend with cerberus in ME3.

This is irrelevant to what we are actually discussing.

1. You do know is another exaple for this long term indoctrination.....Saren.And he really was indoctrinated for decades.
2.That's relevent. You missing the issue on whether the reapers cared if organics know the synthoms. They did not. The can hide it anyway they want. That is made clear on the way theytoo down the protheans crucible project. You don't think the protheans did not know about indoctrination? That they did not check for it all the time? Yet it was the key reason why the project failed.
It's relivent to think about what the reapers cared that organics find out about indoctrination.

Modifié par dreman9999, 21 mai 2012 - 06:20 .

[mauro2222]

balance5050 wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

"Later we discovered that they were indoctrinated"

"sounds like history is repeating itself"

"our studies of past ages have lead us to beleive that time is cyclical, many patterns repeat, - THE SAME CONFLICTS ARE EXPRESSED IN EVERY CYCLE."

http://www.youtube.c...K0WYH6xE#t=70s

That could also mean Rachni Wars, Krogan Wars, Geth Wars... all of them to weaken the galaxy.

We have the Metacon wars with the Protheans.

Very good!

Yeah...but, while Cerberus does stupid things, they're a threat to the Reapers, not an asset.

[balance5050]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

"Later we discovered that they were indoctrinated"

"sounds like history is repeating itself"

"our studies of past ages have lead us to beleive that time is cyclical, many patterns repeat, - THE SAME CONFLICTS ARE EXPRESSED IN EVERY CYCLE."

http://www.youtube.c...K0WYH6xE#t=70s 

And yet not in the exact same way: we already know that our cycle has not been a mere repitition of the Prothean cycle, simply by talking with Javik.

Your problem is that you're trying to read an absolute literalism from a generalization... even though the the preceding sentence fragment disclaims an absolute (many patterns, as opposed to all). Infact, the very statement your sighting is a philosophical belief, not an assertion of absolute fact.

The VI does not provide any standing or evidence that all Reaping Cycles see the Reapers create a control-based schism. The VI tells of exactly one other schism: the Protheans own. And even that is different from ours, because while the Prothean schism was created by the Reapers the Cerberus attempt is neither a schism (Cerberus was already a seperate group) nor was it caused by the Reapers (Cerberus sought Control on its own motivations).

Like Neo says "It's just another form of control"

[Dean_the_Young]

llbountyhunter wrote...

actually i dont think they would make a destroy splinter group.... if the majority of the cycle was going for control, doesnt that just mean that the tactic worked?

No, it doesn't, because getting them to believe in Control isn't the point. Control ruins the Reaper's plans just as much as any other. We know this because of the 'Congratulations, you saved the galaxy' message from the post-game on any ending, Control included.

The Reapers don't want the organics to pursue Control. They want a schism so that the Organics will fail regardless.

It's the division of resources, not the goal pursued, that matter.

[llbountyhunter]

well the comic makes it seem as if though TIM was indoctrinated, especially since he could understand the artifact.

however it is possible that the "decay" happens when your in constant contact with reaper tech. after the artifact was the destroyed the decay process stopped, but not the effects of indoctrination (this does not contradict the husks dying after the reaper severs contact because husks are already completely transformed)

I also think true indoctrination resumed to TIM in me3 thanks to having prolonged contact with the reaper larvae for several months

[Dean_the_Young]

balance5050 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

"Later we discovered that they were indoctrinated"

"sounds like history is repeating itself"

"our studies of past ages have lead us to beleive that time is cyclical, many patterns repeat, - THE SAME CONFLICTS ARE EXPRESSED IN EVERY CYCLE."

http://www.youtube.c...K0WYH6xE#t=70s 

And yet not in the exact same way: we already know that our cycle has not been a mere repitition of the Prothean cycle, simply by talking with Javik.

Your problem is that you're trying to read an absolute literalism from a generalization... even though the the preceding sentence fragment disclaims an absolute (many patterns, as opposed to all). Infact, the very statement your sighting is a philosophical belief, not an assertion of absolute fact.

The VI does not provide any standing or evidence that all Reaping Cycles see the Reapers create a control-based schism. The VI tells of exactly one other schism: the Protheans own. And even that is different from ours, because while the Prothean schism was created by the Reapers the Cerberus attempt is neither a schism (Cerberus was already a seperate group) nor was it caused by the Reapers (Cerberus sought Control on its own motivations).

Like Neo says "It's just another form of control"

No, it isn't. A voluntary action out of greed and self-interest is not the same as a compulsion by brainwashing genocidal robots.

[balance5050]

mauro2222 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

"Later we discovered that they were indoctrinated"

"sounds like history is repeating itself"

"our studies of past ages have lead us to beleive that time is cyclical, many patterns repeat, - THE SAME CONFLICTS ARE EXPRESSED IN EVERY CYCLE."

http://www.youtube.c...K0WYH6xE#t=70s

That could also mean Rachni Wars, Krogan Wars, Geth Wars... all of them to weaken the galaxy.

We have the Metacon wars with the Protheans.

Very good!

Yeah...but, while Cerberus does stupid things, they're a threat to the Reapers, not an asset.

Yeah, it's not like he went to tell the reapers that we needed the citadel for the crucible plan, betraying organics at a crucial point and brown nosing reaper ass.... oh wait.

[balance5050]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

"Later we discovered that they were indoctrinated"

"sounds like history is repeating itself"

"our studies of past ages have lead us to beleive that time is cyclical, many patterns repeat, - THE SAME CONFLICTS ARE EXPRESSED IN EVERY CYCLE."

http://www.youtube.c...K0WYH6xE#t=70s 

And yet not in the exact same way: we already know that our cycle has not been a mere repitition of the Prothean cycle, simply by talking with Javik.

Your problem is that you're trying to read an absolute literalism from a generalization... even though the the preceding sentence fragment disclaims an absolute (many patterns, as opposed to all). Infact, the very statement your sighting is a philosophical belief, not an assertion of absolute fact.

The VI does not provide any standing or evidence that all Reaping Cycles see the Reapers create a control-based schism. The VI tells of exactly one other schism: the Protheans own. And even that is different from ours, because while the Prothean schism was created by the Reapers the Cerberus attempt is neither a schism (Cerberus was already a seperate group) nor was it caused by the Reapers (Cerberus sought Control on its own motivations).

Like Neo says "It's just another form of control"

No, it isn't. A voluntary action out of greed and self-interest is not the same as a compulsion by brainwashing genocidal robots.

TIM didn't start out as greedy or self serving though, I wonder what changed him;)

[dreman9999]

mauro2222 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

"Later we discovered that they were indoctrinated"

"sounds like history is repeating itself"

"our studies of past ages have lead us to beleive that time is cyclical, many patterns repeat, - THE SAME CONFLICTS ARE EXPRESSED IN EVERY CYCLE."

http://www.youtube.c...K0WYH6xE#t=70s

That could also mean Rachni Wars, Krogan Wars, Geth Wars... all of them to weaken the galaxy.

We have the Metacon wars with the Protheans.

Very good!

Yeah...but, while Cerberus does stupid things, they're a threat to the Reapers, not an asset.

They are an uncontroled asset of the reapers in away. Just because the reapers can influence them, does not mean they are with the reapers. It just means can get another enemy to fight another enemy.

[Dean_the_Young]

llbountyhunter wrote...

well the comic makes it seem as if though TIM was indoctrinated, especially since he could understand the artifact.

The comic made it seem as though TIM benefited from the device without being indoctrinated.

Cause he was, you know, opposing all those other indoctrinated people, and never showed signs of worshipping the Reapers, wanting to obey them, or actual indicators of being under their influence.

however it is possible that the "decay" happens when your in constant contact with reaper tech. after the artifact was the destroyed the decay process stopped, but not the effects of indoctrination (this does not contradict the husks dying after the reaper severs contact because husks are already completely transformed)

TIM is in constant contact with Reaper tech: the implants in his body.

I also think true indoctrination resumed to TIM in me3 thanks to having prolonged contact with the reaper larvae for several months

TIM is indoctrinated because of the special implants he has emplaced in himself, as we see the recording of on the Cerberus station.

[mauro2222]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

actually i dont think they would make a destroy splinter group.... if the majority of the cycle was going for control, doesnt that just mean that the tactic worked?

No, it doesn't, because getting them to believe in Control isn't the point. Control ruins the Reaper's plans just as much as any other. We know this because of the 'Congratulations, you saved the galaxy' message from the post-game on any ending, Control included.

The Reapers don't want the organics to pursue Control. They want a schism so that the Organics will fail regardless.

It's the division of resources, not the goal pursued, that matter.

That was my point, Control and Synthesis are not part of the Reaper's plan. Control just goes against their prime objective, they cease to reap. And Synthesis is not what the Reapers want, they preserve organics in reaper form they do not meld organics with synthetics.

[llbountyhunter]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

actually i dont think they would make a destroy splinter group.... if the majority of the cycle was going for control, doesnt that just mean that the tactic worked?

No, it doesn't, because getting them to believe in Control isn't the point. Control ruins the Reaper's plans just as much as any other. We know this because of the 'Congratulations, you saved the galaxy' message from the post-game on any ending, Control included.

The Reapers don't want the organics to pursue Control. They want a schism so that the Organics will fail regardless.

It's the division of resources, not the goal pursued, that matter.

actually, while your point makes sense, the game makes it seem like all indoctrinated agents do not want to destroy the reapers. every single person indoctrinated we encounter, either wants to use them, or to unite with them.

[balance5050]

"We need to hurry, the troops are already hearing voices."

[Dean_the_Young]

dreman9999 wrote...

They are an uncontroled asset of the reapers in away. Just because the reapers can influence them, does not mean they are with the reapers. It just means can get another enemy to fight another enemy.

Or turn it around: the Reapers are an uncontrolled asset to Cerberus. The Reapers fight the same people Cerberus fights, and Cerberus probably sees itself better off with each Homeworld falling to Reaper control.

[balance5050]

llbountyhunter wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

actually i dont think they would make a destroy splinter group.... if the majority of the cycle was going for control, doesnt that just mean that the tactic worked?

No, it doesn't, because getting them to believe in Control isn't the point. Control ruins the Reaper's plans just as much as any other. We know this because of the 'Congratulations, you saved the galaxy' message from the post-game on any ending, Control included.

The Reapers don't want the organics to pursue Control. They want a schism so that the Organics will fail regardless.

It's the division of resources, not the goal pursued, that matter.

actually, while your point makes sense, the game makes it seem like all indoctrinated agents do not want to destroy the reapers. every single person indoctrinated we encounter, either wants to use them, or to unite with them.

Yep, all that Shanxi did was plant the seed of control.

[mauro2222]

balance5050 wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

"Later we discovered that they were indoctrinated"

"sounds like history is repeating itself"

"our studies of past ages have lead us to beleive that time is cyclical, many patterns repeat, - THE SAME CONFLICTS ARE EXPRESSED IN EVERY CYCLE."

http://www.youtube.c...K0WYH6xE#t=70s

That could also mean Rachni Wars, Krogan Wars, Geth Wars... all of them to weaken the galaxy.

We have the Metacon wars with the Protheans.

Very good!

Yeah...but, while Cerberus does stupid things, they're a threat to the Reapers, not an asset.

Yeah, it's not like he went to tell the reapers that we needed the citadel for the crucible plan, betraying organics at a crucial point and brown nosing reaper ass.... oh wait.

He needs the Citadel and the Reapers together... he's still a third party in this conflict and the reapers his enemy.
He believes that his control "powers" or the hell he has, is ready.

Modifié par mauro2222, 21 mai 2012 - 06:26 .

[dreman9999]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

"Later we discovered that they were indoctrinated"

"sounds like history is repeating itself"

"our studies of past ages have lead us to beleive that time is cyclical, many patterns repeat, - THE SAME CONFLICTS ARE EXPRESSED IN EVERY CYCLE."

http://www.youtube.c...K0WYH6xE#t=70s 

And yet not in the exact same way: we already know that our cycle has not been a mere repitition of the Prothean cycle, simply by talking with Javik.

Your problem is that you're trying to read an absolute literalism from a generalization... even though the the preceding sentence fragment disclaims an absolute (many patterns, as opposed to all). Infact, the very statement your sighting is a philosophical belief, not an assertion of absolute fact.

The VI does not provide any standing or evidence that all Reaping Cycles see the Reapers create a control-based schism. The VI tells of exactly one other schism: the Protheans own. And even that is different from ours, because while the Prothean schism was created by the Reapers the Cerberus attempt is neither a schism (Cerberus was already a seperate group) nor was it caused by the Reapers (Cerberus sought Control on its own motivations).

Like Neo says "It's just another form of control"

No, it isn't. A voluntary action out of greed and self-interest is not the same as a compulsion by brainwashing genocidal robots.

The thing your missing is that he is imposing this self-interest on other. You don't notice that TIM is using the same tatics asthe reapers.
Manipulating people using there very nature to bring them to a place where he can remake them as slave soldiers via indoctrination....That's sactuary I hope you know.

[balance5050]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

They are an uncontroled asset of the reapers in away. Just because the reapers can influence them, does not mean they are with the reapers. It just means can get another enemy to fight another enemy.

Or turn it around: the Reapers are an uncontrolled asset to Cerberus. The Reapers fight the same people Cerberus fights, and Cerberus probably sees itself better off with each Homeworld falling to Reaper control.

Strange that...

[Dean_the_Young]

llbountyhunter wrote...

actually, while your point makes sense, the game makes it seem like all indoctrinated agents do not want to destroy the reapers.

They don't have to actually want to destroy the Reapers while under indoctrination. They can simply lie: privately go 'yay Reapers!' while viewing what they do as a necessary part of that glory.

every single person indoctrinated we encounter, either wants to use them, or to unite with them.

Or to fall to them: Doctor Kenson in Arrival.

[dreman9999]

mauro2222 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

"Later we discovered that they were indoctrinated"

"sounds like history is repeating itself"

"our studies of past ages have lead us to beleive that time is cyclical, many patterns repeat, - THE SAME CONFLICTS ARE EXPRESSED IN EVERY CYCLE."

http://www.youtube.c...K0WYH6xE#t=70s

That could also mean Rachni Wars, Krogan Wars, Geth Wars... all of them to weaken the galaxy.

We have the Metacon wars with the Protheans.

Very good!

Yeah...but, while Cerberus does stupid things, they're a threat to the Reapers, not an asset.

Yeah, it's not like he went to tell the reapers that we needed the citadel for the crucible plan, betraying organics at a crucial point and brown nosing reaper ass.... oh wait.

He needs the Citadel and the Reapers together... he's still a third party in this conflict and the reapers his enemy.

But that doen't stop him from being influced by the reapers via indoctrination.