702 réponses à ce sujet

[llbountyhunter]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

actually, while your point makes sense, the game makes it seem like all indoctrinated agents do not want to destroy the reapers.

They don't have to actually want to destroy the Reapers while under indoctrination. They can simply lie: privately go 'yay Reapers!' while viewing what they do as a necessary part of that glory.

every single person indoctrinated we encounter, either wants to use them, or to unite with them.

Or to fall to them: Doctor Kenson in Arrival.

1.Which is why their is a chance TIM can be indoctriated...

No, because we have the books and comics to know TIM's own thoughts on the matter.

Hint: he's not lying in his motivations.

2.Kenson wanted to unite with them and revere them.

Kenson wanted various things at different points, and she was willing to do whatever the Reapers wanted her to do.

Indoctrination =/= public sycophantry.

I dont think you understand indoctrination.....

[mauro2222]

dreman9999 wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Uhm, they control every asspect of our evoluition, our past and our future, they already are in control and thats why contorl isa reaper creedo that will get you to start thinking like them.

What the hell...?

They do not control every aspect of our evolution, just the "next" step.
The Reapers' main objective is to defend organics from a technological singularity... nothing more.
Cerberus wants to use the Reapers as tools, weapons to achieve power in the galaxy... nothing more.

The reaper goal is to stop the conflict of organics and synthetic not protect organics.
Also, they do want to control organic evolution...That's why the make organics into reaper...To force evolution.

That's what I said... amazing isn't it?

If they preserve organic chow (essence) in a reaper form, they are protecting it.

[Dean_the_Young]

dreman9999 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

But that also can be another form of inflence by the reapers. Get cerberus to consider everyone an enemy including the reapers and havethem hinder the people the reapers want to harvest.

And Shepard's plan to gather everyone for a conventional liberation of Earth could be a form of influence by the Reapers, leading everyone into a conventional defeat.

Could. Wasn't.

Cerberus's antagonism in ME3 is never implied to be because it is controlled by the Reapers, as opposed to its own choice. TIM succumbs to the Reapers after Mars, not before.

Yes, the beings who want to perserve organics in reaper form want to trick organics to joining together, which allows the organic to be better tat kill reapers which they us to perserve organics, so that they can perseve organics...
How does that make sense....It like yoursay they are willing to risk the lost of the many reaper they used to perseve organics to make a few reapers.That's coming out less then what they had and goes ageint their goal.

How does tricking the organics to put all their eggs in a basket the Reapers can crush in a single decisive battle rather than waste years with hit-and-run attacks taking small tolls make any sense?

Well, a basic sense of military strategy would be one part of it.

[balance5050]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
The reaper goal is to stop the conflict of organics and synthetic not protect organics.

It's to protect organic life as whole from annihilation at the hands of synthetics.

Well, that's what the Catalyst proposes, but you'd be insane to believe it. 

Also, they do want to control organic evolution...That's why the make organics into reaper...To force evolution.

Eh.................. what? 

No, they don't want the control organic evolution. If they did; they would. 

Making Reapers from organics is apparently their way of saving the genetic 'essence' of a species, so not everything about them is completely wiped out. 

Still doesn't excuse them committing genocide. 

The kid even tells you that they left all that neat tech so that "organics would develop along the paths we decide" They are controlling us. They have been for ages.

[The Night Mammoth]

mauro2222 wrote...

Yes, he has no reason to lie about his purpose... if he lies with the options he gives you, is another story.

It doesn't have to be lying, just telling you what it thinks is the truth, even thought that's contary to what the narrative teaches you. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Bill Casey wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Fortunately for the galaxy, probabilities are not the same as possibilities. TIM was indoctrinated afterwards... but TIM was also correct before his indoctrination. You can take control of the Reapers.

Indoctrination means you are embued with a belief structure, though...
The Reapers alter people's beliefs to suit their needs...

And...?

I assume you left off with half a point that got deleted or something, because that neither contradicts or even addresses what you quoted.

[mauro2222]

balance5050 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
The reaper goal is to stop the conflict of organics and synthetic not protect organics.

It's to protect organic life as whole from annihilation at the hands of synthetics.

Well, that's what the Catalyst proposes, but you'd be insane to believe it. 

Also, they do want to control organic evolution...That's why the make organics into reaper...To force evolution.

Eh.................. what? 

No, they don't want the control organic evolution. If they did; they would. 

Making Reapers from organics is apparently their way of saving the genetic 'essence' of a species, so not everything about them is completely wiped out. 

Still doesn't excuse them committing genocide. 

The kid even tells you that they left all that neat tech so that "organics would develop along the paths we decide" They are controlling us. They have been for ages.

Technological progress =/= biological evolution.

Besides, Sovereign =/= Catalyst.

[balance5050]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

But that also can be another form of inflence by the reapers. Get cerberus to consider everyone an enemy including the reapers and havethem hinder the people the reapers want to harvest.

And Shepard's plan to gather everyone for a conventional liberation of Earth could be a form of influence by the Reapers, leading everyone into a conventional defeat.

Could. Wasn't.

Cerberus's antagonism in ME3 is never implied to be because it is controlled by the Reapers, as opposed to its own choice. TIM succumbs to the Reapers after Mars, not before.

Yes, the beings who want to perserve organics in reaper form want to trick organics to joining together, which allows the organic to be better tat kill reapers which they us to perserve organics, so that they can perseve organics...
How does that make sense....It like yoursay they are willing to risk the lost of the many reaper they used to perseve organics to make a few reapers.That's coming out less then what they had and goes ageint their goal.

How does tricking the organics to put all their eggs in a basket the Reapers can crush in a single decisive battle rather than waste years with hit-and-run attacks taking small tolls make any sense?

Well, a basic sense of military strategy would be one part of it.

So the reapers did trick us then, cool. I like stories that force you to think for yourself.

[dreman9999]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
The reaper goal is to stop the conflict of organics and synthetic not protect organics.

It's to protect organic life as whole from annihilation at the hands of synthetics.

Well, that's what the Catalyst proposes, but you'd be insane to believe it. 

Also, they do want to control organic evolution...That's why the make organics into reaper...To force evolution.

Eh.................. what? 

No, they don't want the control organic evolution. If they did; they would. 

Making Reapers from organics is apparently their way of saving the genetic 'essence' of a species, so not everything about them is completely wiped out. 

Still doesn't excuse them committing genocide. 

1. There issue was the conflict not just to protect life. Remeber, oneof their point was wha happen to the geth on rennoch.
2.They turn organics into reaper...They say it's a form of asendance...The next stage of evolution......That means they want to control the evolution of organic life. Bu the thing is finding organic life is difficult. That why they use the mass relay trap...It's a lure

[The Night Mammoth]

balance5050 wrote...

The kid even tells you that they left all that neat tech so that "organics would develop along the paths we decide" They are controlling us. They have been for ages.

I'm aware. 

All I'm saying (in a post you missed) is that their control is limited, pretty loose. 

They stear the rough technological path of basic galactic travel and sometimes the governmental structure of certain civilizations. Their control is nothing near as absolute as you made it out to be. 

[Dean_the_Young]

balance5050 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

"We need to hurry, the troops are already hearing voices."

...you do realize what Project Sanctuary achieved, yes?

Yep, they were trying to gain control of the reapers forces.

They also successfully gained control of their own forces regardless.

Cerberus troopers with Reaper tech implants are under Cerberus control thanks to Project Sanctuary. When they lose their own control, that's when incidents like Benning happen.

[mauro2222]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

Yes, he has no reason to lie about his purpose... if he lies with the options he gives you, is another story.

It doesn't have to be lying, just telling you what it thinks is the truth, even thought that's contary to what the narrative teaches you. 

Haha, true.

[dreman9999]

mauro2222 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
The reaper goal is to stop the conflict of organics and synthetic not protect organics.

It's to protect organic life as whole from annihilation at the hands of synthetics.

Well, that's what the Catalyst proposes, but you'd be insane to believe it. 

Also, they do want to control organic evolution...That's why the make organics into reaper...To force evolution.

Eh.................. what? 

No, they don't want the control organic evolution. If they did; they would. 

Making Reapers from organics is apparently their way of saving the genetic 'essence' of a species, so not everything about them is completely wiped out. 

Still doesn't excuse them committing genocide. 

The kid even tells you that they left all that neat tech so that "organics would develop along the paths we decide" They are controlling us. They have been for ages.

Technological progress =/= biological evolution.

Besides, Sovereign =/= Catalyst.

 
Too much technologial progress=stop of biologiacl evolution.

[Dragoncloud]

Jawsomebob wrote...

Explain to me this?

In 3 games Bioware never even gets into the topic of "Shepard" being indoctornated. People around him go to the reaper side but the game never even goes in a direction where it even CONSIDERS shepard even ebing partially indoctrianated.

Why is that?

Why is shepard excluded from indoctronation. He isn't. Do you really think Bioware would end the series without Shepard and why he is able to resist indoctronation being addressed.

Liara, the doctor, joker, anderson...no one ever goes "hey shepard I have been thinking. I am suprised you are unable to be indoctronated. Are you that strong willed? That's amazing!"

The ending addresses this.

Spoiler

prothean vi kindoff makes you non-indoctrinated until atleast after you kill kai leng, only time you are close to indoctrination is when TIM tries to control you, but the 'shadows' dissapear after you shoot him (or whatever you did, i just shot him when i could)

Modifié par Dragoncloud, 21 mai 2012 - 06:53 .

[The Night Mammoth]

dreman9999 wrote...
1. There issue was the conflict not just to protect life. Remeber, oneof their point was wha happen to the geth on rennoch.

No, it was to protect life. They stop the conflict to protect organic life as a whole. 

2.They turn organics into reaper...They say it's a form of asendance...The next stage of evolution......That means they want to control the evolution of organic life. Bu the thing is finding organic life is difficult. That why they use the mass relay trap...It's a lure

No, they want to ascend species to Reaper form, they do not control the evolutionary path. Their manipulation is very loose.

[balance5050]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

"We need to hurry, the troops are already hearing voices."

...you do realize what Project Sanctuary achieved, yes?

Yep, they were trying to gain control of the reapers forces.

They also successfully gained control of their own forces regardless.

Cerberus troopers with Reaper tech implants are under Cerberus control thanks to Project Sanctuary. When they lose their own control, that's when incidents like Benning happen.

To bad TIM couldn't keep himself from being indoctrinated.

[Dean_the_Young]

balance5050 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

"We need to hurry, the troops are already hearing voices."

...you do realize what Project Sanctuary achieved, yes?

Do you realise TIM still ended up indoctrinated?

You do realize that you're jumping into conversations you aren't actually tracking, don't you?

TIM wasn't using trooper implants.

Uhm, he still ended up indoctrinated no matter what he was using.

Yes. That is not in dispute. Dreman was jumping off on a tangent selective logic.

[balance5050]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
1. There issue was the conflict not just to protect life. Remeber, oneof their point was wha happen to the geth on rennoch.

No, it was to protect life. They stop the conflict to protect organic life as a whole. 

2.They turn organics into reaper...They say it's a form of asendance...The next stage of evolution......That means they want to control the evolution of organic life. Bu the thing is finding organic life is difficult. That why they use the mass relay trap...It's a lure

No, they want to ascend species to Reaper form, they do not control the evolutionary path. Their manipulation is very loose.

Not really, we use the relays they want us to use, we all gather at the citadel which is a reaper trap, they leave indoc devices scattered everywhere, they try to control us as much as they can really.

[Dean_the_Young]

llbountyhunter wrote...

I dont think you understand indoctrination.....

Since Retribution gives us a look at the mind of someone actively undergoing indoctrination (Grayson) and people who are not, and TIM does not follow any of the Grayson indicators even in his own mind, you'll have to make a position of any part you think is wrong.

[mauro2222]

dreman9999 wrote...

 
Too much technologial progress=stop of biologiacl evolution.

And...? You really are lost.

Comparing Prothean huskification to technological advancement is... stupid.
And no, biological evolution can never be stopped.

[balance5050]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

"We need to hurry, the troops are already hearing voices."

...you do realize what Project Sanctuary achieved, yes?

Do you realise TIM still ended up indoctrinated?

You do realize that you're jumping into conversations you aren't actually tracking, don't you?

TIM wasn't using trooper implants.

Uhm, he still ended up indoctrinated no matter what he was using.

Yes. That is not in dispute. Dreman was jumping off on a tangent selective logic.

Wut? I thought we were talking about TIM this whole time.... Wut?

[dreman9999]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
1. There issue was the conflict not just to protect life. Remeber, oneof their point was wha happen to the geth on rennoch.

No, it was to protect life. They stop the conflict to protect organic life as a whole. 

2.They turn organics into reaper...They say it's a form of asendance...The next stage of evolution......That means they want to control the evolution of organic life. Bu the thing is finding organic life is difficult. That why they use the mass relay trap...It's a lure

No, they want to ascend species to Reaper form, they do not control the evolutionary path. Their manipulation is very loose.

1. You clear miss the point made on rennoch...Did younot notice that the conflict we started by organics?
2.doyou even know why the reaper set up the mass relays?

[Dean_the_Young]

balance5050 wrote...

So the reapers did trick us then, cool. I like stories that force you to think for yourself.

The Reapers didn't trick us. Hackett always framed the Crucible force in terms of making the Crucible effective, not a conventional victory.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 21 mai 2012 - 06:59 .

[balance5050]

mauro2222 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

 
Too much technologial progress=stop of biologiacl evolution.

And...? You really are lost.

Comparing Prothean huskification to technological advancement is... stupid.
And no, biological evolution can never be stopped.

It stops when we get technology stuffed into our DNA through synthesis, evolution comes from strife, not from being the alpha.

[Dean_the_Young]

balance5050 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

"We need to hurry, the troops are already hearing voices."

...you do realize what Project Sanctuary achieved, yes?

Yep, they were trying to gain control of the reapers forces.

They also successfully gained control of their own forces regardless.

Cerberus troopers with Reaper tech implants are under Cerberus control thanks to Project Sanctuary. When they lose their own control, that's when incidents like Benning happen.

To bad TIM couldn't keep himself from being indoctrinated.

Yes, it was. It possibly had something to do with different sorts of implants, don'tchathink.