702 réponses à ce sujet

[Aiyie]

Vapaä wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

where did you get than from? some have fallen after mere hours. in the comic book introducing TIM, his friend was indoctrinated nearly instantaniously, after touching a reaper artifact.

http://masseffect.wi.../Indoctrination 

That's not indoctrination, that's DNA rewritting, indoctrination is the process of mind controlling someone, not forcing reaper tech into his body

Besides, your link cleary mentions "days perhaps a week"

dreman9999 wrote...

That's to loss their minds.....Not
from reapers to start indoctrination... Remeber the theory is the
Shepard is in the prosses of indoctination.

I know the theory, but the first symptoms of indoctrination came after days of continuous exposure

we don't know exactly how indocrination works.  why are people assuming a timeframe, when its clearly stated that the reapers can alter the timeframe required to indoctrinate people, as they see fit to do so?

for all we know its entirely possible that indoctrination can be instantaneous, or its just as plausible that it does have a certain minimum time.  we simply do not have enough information to objectively state, one way or the other, which is the case.

for that matter, we don't even know if its possible to be partially indoctrinated.  is it an all or nothing deal?  can you be only partially indoctrinated and thus, only partially under the reaper's influence?  is it that the initial stages of indoctrination simply influence your actions, while full indoctrination allows them full control?  and again, what is the timeline between going from the influence stage to the full control stage, if that is indeed how it works?

alot of assumptions based on incomplete information from both the pro-IT'rs and the anti-IT'rs.

Modifié par Aiyie, 22 mai 2012 - 03:43 .

[llbountyhunter]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

me1,2,3.... the me books and comics..... mass effect wiki...... the codex..... 

I guess context doesn't matter a jiffy, right? 

Physical alteration in what terms?

sorry, the physical alteration has to be by the reapers... (usualy throught the use of nanites as dicovered in me3)

[llbountyhunter]

llbountyhunter wrote...

Vapaä wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

http://masseffect.wi...#Indoctrination 

Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. 

Yup, does that inclue physical implants inside the victim's body ? no

so according to you grayson was not indoctrinated? LOL

[The Night Mammoth]

dreman9999 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

me1,2,3.... the me books and comics..... mass effect wiki...... the codex..... 

I guess context doesn't matter a jiffy, right? 

Physical alteration in what terms?

http://masseffect.wi...#Indoctrination 
The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions. 

And if you knew waht the limbic system does.....The fact that the reapers can control it would scare you. It you entire behavior.
 

Why do people keep doing this? 

Explain your point. 

[Vapaa]

macrocarl wrote...

And Harby is believed to be the oldest of the Reapers so maybe
days is more appropriate if he's stronger? That's speculation, I know, but any
way you cut it, the amount of time it takes to get Shep indoctrinated is
kind of up in the air.

That only count for the beam scene when Harby shows himself, but if Sovereign takes days to indoctrinate someone, how can some random artifacts indoctrinate Shepard in mere hours ?(Shepard is said to have strong will)

macrocarl wrote...
As for TIM's friend getting his DNA rewritten, where was that stated?

"DNA rewritting" is indeed not a very apropriate term; I use it for every form of physical alteration of one's body through implants (like Saren, Grayson) or genetic rewritting (the Adjudants or whatever it's called)

Idoctrination is a purely "ranged" process wich only damage the victim's brain via EM fiels and ultrasonic noise

[llbountyhunter]

Vapaä wrote...

macrocarl wrote...

And Harby is believed to be the oldest of the Reapers so maybe
days is more appropriate if he's stronger? That's speculation, I know, but any
way you cut it, the amount of time it takes to get Shep indoctrinated is
kind of up in the air.

That only count for the beam scene when Harby shows himself, but if Sovereign takes days to indoctrinate someone, how can some random artifacts indoctrinate Shepard in mere hours ?(Shepard is said to have strong will)

macrocarl wrote...
As for TIM's friend getting his DNA rewritten, where was that stated?

"DNA rewritting" is indeed not a very apropriate term; I use it for every form of physical alteration of one's body through implants (like Saren, Grayson) or genetic rewritting (the Adjudants or whatever it's called)

Idoctrination is a purely "ranged" process wich only damage the victim's brain via EM fiels and ultrasonic noise

these are both forms of indoctrination, because the dna is not being "rewriten" exactly its being replaced by reaper tech.

[The Night Mammoth]

llbountyhunter wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

me1,2,3.... the me books and comics..... mass effect wiki...... the codex..... 

I guess context doesn't matter a jiffy, right? 

Physical alteration in what terms?

sorry, the physical alteration has to be by the reapers... (usualy throught the use of nanites as dicovered in me3)

You can have physical alteration by Reaper technology without being indoctrinated. Saren being a good case-study. Indoctrination happened slowly for him, after implantation of cybernetic parts. 

However, the different between mental indoctination and physical alteration is blurred. Indoctination can occur without it. Ultra-sonic waves condition the mind, nothing physical about the subject is changed. 

Indoctrination does usually happen eventually if you start implanting Reaper tech into organics.

Nanites are used to create husks, or maybe it was Cerberus's method of indoctrination. 

[llbountyhunter]

Aiyie wrote...

Vapaä wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

where did you get than from? some have fallen after mere hours. in the comic book introducing TIM, his friend was indoctrinated nearly instantaniously, after touching a reaper artifact.

http://masseffect.wi.../Indoctrination 

That's not indoctrination, that's DNA rewritting, indoctrination is the process of mind controlling someone, not forcing reaper tech into his body

Besides, your link cleary mentions "days perhaps a week"

dreman9999 wrote...

That's to loss their minds.....Not
from reapers to start indoctrination... Remeber the theory is the
Shepard is in the prosses of indoctination.

I know the theory, but the first symptoms of indoctrination came after days of continuous exposure

we don't know exactly how indocrination works.  why are people assuming a timeframe, when its clearly stated that the reapers can alter the timeframe required to indoctrinate people, as they see fit to do so?

for all we know its entirely possible that indoctrination can be instantaneous, or its just as plausible that it does have a certain minimum time.  we simply do not have enough information to objectively state, one way or the other, which is the case.

for that matter, we don't even know if its possible to be partially indoctrinated.  is it an all or nothing deal?  can you be only partially indoctrinated and thus, only partially under the reaper's influence?  is it that the initial stages of indoctrination simply influence your actions, while full indoctrination allows them full control?  and again, what is the timeline between going from the influence stage to the full control stage, if that is indeed how it works?

alot of assumptions based on incomplete information from both the pro-IT'rs and the anti-IT'rs.

actually, aside from being very good, the ME books give us a view of the mind of a person becoming indctrinated.

[dreman9999]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Kai Lang and Kalheen Sanders in ME3 say otherwize. They use Paul Greysons experiance in ME:retrubution in ME3's plot as well as the books explains how Saren found Sovergin...
The books are cannon because they are mentions in the main plot.

EITHER. 

What?

You haven't been following what I'm saying, so you failed to register the significance of the word either in that post. 

You just wrote ether. Whatis that sappost to mean. We have book character in ME3 and some how, the books are not cannon?

You haven't been following what I'm saying, so you failed to register the significance of the word either in the post you quoted. 

How can it be ether when it just is? How can you have book character in the story that refer to the books and the books not be cannon?

That's what I'm getting at. You haven't been following what I've been saying before you jumped in without context. 

There is no canon in Mass Effect. There's no one official storyline. All of them have certain fixed events, plot points that remain constant, but that's different from having canon and non-canon. The number of variables prohibit that. 

Their's not offical cannon for the player controled cannon...Not for the basis. Book are part of the basis part of the connon. There things that happen no matter what Shepard does. Liara always becomes the shadow broker and gets Shepards body for cerberus, Anderdon will alway tell you how he met Saren, Saren will alway find and be indoctrinated by Sovergin...I can go one. Don't confuse the fact that the player controled connon having no cannon means the base of the cannon the player base cannon has no cannon. You have to spring boardoff of something.

[Vapaa]

llbountyhunter wrote...

Vapaä wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

http://masseffect.wi...#Indoctrination 

Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. 

Yup, does that inclue physical implants inside the victim's body ? no

so according to you grayson was not indoctrinated? LOL

Oh he definitely was, the difference is: Reaper implants inside your body (Grayson, Ben) will indoctrinate you, but you doesn't have to have implants to be indoctrinated, the brainwasching proccess is enough

[llbountyhunter]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

me1,2,3.... the me books and comics..... mass effect wiki...... the codex..... 

I guess context doesn't matter a jiffy, right? 

Physical alteration in what terms?

sorry, the physical alteration has to be by the reapers... (usualy throught the use of nanites as dicovered in me3)

You can have physical alteration by Reaper technology without being indoctrinated. Saren being a good case-study. Indoctrination happened slowly for him, after implantation of cybernetic parts. 

However, the different between mental indoctination and physical alteration is blurred. Indoctination can occur without it. Ultra-sonic waves condition the mind, nothing physical about the subject is changed. 

Indoctrination does usually happen eventually if you start implanting Reaper tech into organics.

Nanites are used to create husks, or maybe it was Cerberus's method of indoctrination. 

I assumed saren was already indoctrinated, and the implants just gave the reapers more control... could be wrong though.

[llbountyhunter]

Vapaä wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

Vapaä wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

http://masseffect.wi...#Indoctrination 

Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. 

Yup, does that inclue physical implants inside the victim's body ? no

so according to you grayson was not indoctrinated? LOL

Oh he definitely was, the difference is: Reaper implants inside your body (Grayson, Ben) will indoctrinate you, but you doesn't have to have implants to be indoctrinated, the brainwasching proccess is enough

thats what I have been saying..... <_<

[Vapaa]

llbountyhunter wrote...

these are both forms of indoctrination, because the dna is not being "rewriten" exactly its being replaced by reaper tech.

That's huskification, and the Adju-whatever it's called from ME Invasion rewrette DNA that's clearly stated in the comic

[The Night Mammoth]

dreman9999 wrote...
Their's not offical cannon for the player controled cannon...Not for the basis. Book are part of the basis part of the connon. There things that happen no matter what Shepard does. Liara always becomes the shadow broker and gets Shepards body for cerberus, Anderdon will alway tell you how he met Saren, Saren will alway find and be indoctrinated by Sovergin...I can go one. Don't confuse the fact that the player controled connon having no cannon means the base of the cannon the player base cannon has no cannon. You have to spring boardoff of something.

Yes which is why noted the different between having canon and non-canon, and just not having canon at all. 

For the former you will always have one singe set of events, and alternatives that aren't official. This does not occur in Mass Effect. Every variable is as valid as any other. 

Having no canon allows you to tailor the story however you want. There will always be set events, but there's a difference between these events being canon and having no canon. 

[dreman9999]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

me1,2,3.... the me books and comics..... mass effect wiki...... the codex..... 

I guess context doesn't matter a jiffy, right? 

Physical alteration in what terms?

http://masseffect.wi...#Indoctrination 
The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions. 

And if you knew waht the limbic system does.....The fact that the reapers can control it would scare you. It you entire behavior.
 

Why do people keep doing this? 

Explain your point. 

The limbic system controls the feelings,emotions, behavior, fears, happiness, sadness, and visualistion of a person. People get hallucintions from it and dream. PTSD is based in this system as well.
If the reapers can control the limbic system, they can control the behavior and feelings of any person. This is a physical control a person with indoctrination because the only way to do this is with chemical or electriacl impulses.

Modifié par dreman9999, 22 mai 2012 - 03:54 .

[llbountyhunter]

Vapaä wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

these are both forms of indoctrination, because the dna is not being "rewriten" exactly its being replaced by reaper tech.

That's huskification, and the Adju-whatever it's called from ME Invasion rewrette DNA that's clearly stated in the comic

your using different terms to describe the same thing.

[dreman9999]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Their's not offical cannon for the player controled cannon...Not for the basis. Book are part of the basis part of the connon. There things that happen no matter what Shepard does. Liara always becomes the shadow broker and gets Shepards body for cerberus, Anderdon will alway tell you how he met Saren, Saren will alway find and be indoctrinated by Sovergin...I can go one. Don't confuse the fact that the player controled connon having no cannon means the base of the cannon the player base cannon has no cannon. You have to spring boardoff of something.

Yes which is why noted the different between having canon and non-canon, and just not having canon at all. 

For the former you will always have one singe set of events, and alternatives that aren't official. This does not occur in Mass Effect. Every variable is as valid as any other. 

Having no canon allows you to tailor the story however you want. There will always be set events, but there's a difference between these events being canon and having no canon. 

But those sigle set of evens are canon...The books and comics are the same way the same way.

[The Night Mammoth]

llbountyhunter wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

me1,2,3.... the me books and comics..... mass effect wiki...... the codex..... 

I guess context doesn't matter a jiffy, right? 

Physical alteration in what terms?

sorry, the physical alteration has to be by the reapers... (usualy throught the use of nanites as dicovered in me3)

You can have physical alteration by Reaper technology without being indoctrinated. Saren being a good case-study. Indoctrination happened slowly for him, after implantation of cybernetic parts. 

However, the different between mental indoctination and physical alteration is blurred. Indoctination can occur without it. Ultra-sonic waves condition the mind, nothing physical about the subject is changed. 

Indoctrination does usually happen eventually if you start implanting Reaper tech into organics.

Nanites are used to create husks, or maybe it was Cerberus's method of indoctrination. 

I assumed saren was already indoctrinated, and the implants just gave the reapers more control... could be wrong though.

Difficult to say. His motivations for helping Sovereign were his own, to start with. The Reaper didn't persuade him as far as I know, he basically volunteerd. 

Only later, after he had parts implanted, did he fall fully under Sovereign's control. Whether the implants contributed is unknown, but we know indoctrination is largely a mentail process, and not a physical one. 

[The Night Mammoth]

dreman9999 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Their's not offical cannon for the player controled cannon...Not for the basis. Book are part of the basis part of the connon. There things that happen no matter what Shepard does. Liara always becomes the shadow broker and gets Shepards body for cerberus, Anderdon will alway tell you how he met Saren, Saren will alway find and be indoctrinated by Sovergin...I can go one. Don't confuse the fact that the player controled connon having no cannon means the base of the cannon the player base cannon has no cannon. You have to spring boardoff of something.

Yes which is why noted the different between having canon and non-canon, and just not having canon at all. 

For the former you will always have one singe set of events, and alternatives that aren't official. This does not occur in Mass Effect. Every variable is as valid as any other. 

Having no canon allows you to tailor the story however you want. There will always be set events, but there's a difference between these events being canon and having no canon. 

But those sigle set of evens are canon...The books and comics are the same way the same way.

It's one sequence brought about by books not having a choice system. 

They aren't 'more canon' than other variables. 

[dreman9999]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Their's not offical cannon for the player controled cannon...Not for the basis. Book are part of the basis part of the connon. There things that happen no matter what Shepard does. Liara always becomes the shadow broker and gets Shepards body for cerberus, Anderdon will alway tell you how he met Saren, Saren will alway find and be indoctrinated by Sovergin...I can go one. Don't confuse the fact that the player controled connon having no cannon means the base of the cannon the player base cannon has no cannon. You have to spring boardoff of something.

Yes which is why noted the different between having canon and non-canon, and just not having canon at all. 

For the former you will always have one singe set of events, and alternatives that aren't official. This does not occur in Mass Effect. Every variable is as valid as any other. 

Having no canon allows you to tailor the story however you want. There will always be set events, but there's a difference between these events being canon and having no canon. 

But those sigle set of evens are canon...The books and comics are the same way the same way.

It's one sequence brought about by books not having a choice system. 

They aren't 'more canon' than other variables. 

They are more cannon then the choicesin the games because no matter what the players do, the events of the book happen. That's way they are cannon.

[dreman9999]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

me1,2,3.... the me books and comics..... mass effect wiki...... the codex..... 

I guess context doesn't matter a jiffy, right? 

Physical alteration in what terms?

sorry, the physical alteration has to be by the reapers... (usualy throught the use of nanites as dicovered in me3)

You can have physical alteration by Reaper technology without being indoctrinated. Saren being a good case-study. Indoctrination happened slowly for him, after implantation of cybernetic parts. 

However, the different between mental indoctination and physical alteration is blurred. Indoctination can occur without it. Ultra-sonic waves condition the mind, nothing physical about the subject is changed. 

Indoctrination does usually happen eventually if you start implanting Reaper tech into organics.

Nanites are used to create husks, or maybe it was Cerberus's method of indoctrination. 

I assumed saren was already indoctrinated, and the implants just gave the reapers more control... could be wrong though.

Difficult to say. His motivations for helping Sovereign were his own, to start with. The Reaper didn't persuade him as far as I know, he basically volunteerd. 

Only later, after he had parts implanted, did he fall fully under Sovereign's control. Whether the implants contributed is unknown, but we know indoctrination is largely a mentail process, and not a physical one. 

Indoctrination warps the belief of the person to make what the reaper belive or want logical. Saren was a being of order so the concept of order was used. Kenson was a being of descovery, so they warped her ideals to descovery to help them ....TIM is a being of control....And they waarped that too.
All this is basedin the persons limbic system....Which the reapers control with indoctrination.

[llbountyhunter]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Difficult to say. His motivations for helping Sovereign were his own, to start with. The Reaper didn't persuade him as far as I know, he basically volunteerd. 

Only later, after he had parts implanted, did he fall fully under Sovereign's control. Whether the implants contributed is unknown, but we know indoctrination is largely a mentail process, and not a physical one. 

doesnt indoctrination make you want to help the reapers?   but I do agree with indoctrination being more of a mental proccess.

[The Night Mammoth]

dreman9999 wrote...
They are more cannon then the choicesin the games because no matter what the players do, the events of the book happen. That's way they are cannon.

They aren't more canon than Wreav leading the Krogan over Wrex leading them. That's why there is no canon systme to speak of. 

[The Night Mammoth]

llbountyhunter wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Difficult to say. His motivations for helping Sovereign were his own, to start with. The Reaper didn't persuade him as far as I know, he basically volunteerd. 

Only later, after he had parts implanted, did he fall fully under Sovereign's control. Whether the implants contributed is unknown, but we know indoctrination is largely a mentail process, and not a physical one. 

doesnt indoctrination make you want to help the reapers?  

It does, eventually. But Saren began helping Sovereign due to his own motivations and ideals, rather than control.

At the start. Obviously, he was a thrall before he realised the truth. 

[dreman9999]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
They are more cannon then the choicesin the games because no matter what the players do, the events of the book happen. That's way they are cannon.

They aren't more canon than Wreav leading the Krogan over Wrex leading them. That's why there is no canon systme to speak of. 

Again, no matter what the player does...Anderson met Saren 20 years before ME1.....And Anderson tell you about it.
No matter what, Cerberus tries to get Gillian Grayson back....And Tali tells you about it.
No matter what, Anderson shoots Kai Lang in the knees in ME:retrubution....And Anderson tells you this.
As Player we can control were Wrex or wreave is in charge..... But we have no control on the events in the bookd...That is why they are cannon...Because they always happen.