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[dreman9999]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Difficult to say. His motivations for helping Sovereign were his own, to start with. The Reaper didn't persuade him as far as I know, he basically volunteerd. 

Only later, after he had parts implanted, did he fall fully under Sovereign's control. Whether the implants contributed is unknown, but we know indoctrination is largely a mentail process, and not a physical one. 

doesnt indoctrination make you want to help the reapers?  

It does, eventually. But Saren began helping Sovereign due to his own motivations and ideals, rather than control.

At the start. Obviously, he was a thrall before he realised the truth. 

That makes no sense.....The reapershave been know to warp a person idealology to help them...And you saying that they are not doing it now? Remeber, you did convince him to help you in the end.

[llbountyhunter]

nevermind/

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 22 mai 2012 - 04:08 .

[Aiyie]

llbountyhunter wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

me1,2,3.... the me books and comics..... mass effect wiki...... the codex..... 

I guess context doesn't matter a jiffy, right? 

Physical alteration in what terms?

sorry, the physical alteration has to be by the reapers... (usualy throught the use of nanites as dicovered in me3)

You can have physical alteration by Reaper technology without being indoctrinated. Saren being a good case-study. Indoctrination happened slowly for him, after implantation of cybernetic parts. 

However, the different between mental indoctination and physical alteration is blurred. Indoctination can occur without it. Ultra-sonic waves condition the mind, nothing physical about the subject is changed. 

Indoctrination does usually happen eventually if you start implanting Reaper tech into organics.

Nanites are used to create husks, or maybe it was Cerberus's method of indoctrination. 

I assumed saren was already indoctrinated, and the implants just gave the reapers more control... could be wrong though.

always kinda thought, based on the way Saren talked about being "improved" by the reapers... that he had simply been resisting indoctrination after his little chat with Shepard on Virmire...

the reapers put the implants in as an additional means of control once they found that straight up indoctrination wasn't working as effectively anymore.

hence why Saren thought of the reaper tech infesting his body as being an improvement... they merely reinforced the indoctrination already present in his mind.

[llbountyhunter]

Aiyie wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

me1,2,3.... the me books and comics..... mass effect wiki...... the codex..... 

I guess context doesn't matter a jiffy, right? 

Physical alteration in what terms?

sorry, the physical alteration has to be by the reapers... (usualy throught the use of nanites as dicovered in me3)

You can have physical alteration by Reaper technology without being indoctrinated. Saren being a good case-study. Indoctrination happened slowly for him, after implantation of cybernetic parts. 

However, the different between mental indoctination and physical alteration is blurred. Indoctination can occur without it. Ultra-sonic waves condition the mind, nothing physical about the subject is changed. 

Indoctrination does usually happen eventually if you start implanting Reaper tech into organics.

Nanites are used to create husks, or maybe it was Cerberus's method of indoctrination. 

I assumed saren was already indoctrinated, and the implants just gave the reapers more control... could be wrong though.

always kinda thought, based on the way Saren talked about being "improved" by the reapers... that he had simply been resisting indoctrination after his little chat with Shepard on Virmire...

the reapers put the implants in as an additional means of control once they found that straight up indoctrination wasn't working as effectively anymore.

hence why Saren thought of the reaper tech infesting his body as being an improvement... they merely reinforced the indoctrination already present in his mind.

but he was spouting that same stuff right up until the end, which makes me think he was indoctrinated since the beggining. 


I thought they put the implants on him because he failed to kill shepard....

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 22 mai 2012 - 04:17 .

[Bob3terd]

dreman9999 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
They are more cannon then the choicesin the games because no matter what the players do, the events of the book happen. That's way they are cannon.

They aren't more canon than Wreav leading the Krogan over Wrex leading them. That's why there is no canon systme to speak of. 

Again, no matter what the player does...Anderson met Saren 20 years before ME1.....And Anderson tell you about it.
No matter what, Cerberus tries to get Gillian Grayson back....And Tali tells you about it.
No matter what, Anderson shoots Kai Lang in the knees in ME:retrubution....And Anderson tells you this.
As Player we can control were Wrex or wreave is in charge..... But we have no control on the events in the bookd...That is why they are cannon...Because they always happen.

Arrival however does not always happen to shepard, depending on wether you played it or not. The book is irrelevant to those who did not play arrival because marines did it on their playthrough. Wether its canon or not the point originally is this is when shepard got indoc, if he did not go the ending should be different if thats when he got indoc'd regardless of wether its canon or not.

[llbountyhunter]

Bob3terd wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
They are more cannon then the choicesin the games because no matter what the players do, the events of the book happen. That's way they are cannon.

They aren't more canon than Wreav leading the Krogan over Wrex leading them. That's why there is no canon systme to speak of. 

Again, no matter what the player does...Anderson met Saren 20 years before ME1.....And Anderson tell you about it.
No matter what, Cerberus tries to get Gillian Grayson back....And Tali tells you about it.
No matter what, Anderson shoots Kai Lang in the knees in ME:retrubution....And Anderson tells you this.
As Player we can control were Wrex or wreave is in charge..... But we have no control on the events in the bookd...That is why they are cannon...Because they always happen.

Arrival however does not always happen to shepard, depending on wether you played it or not. The book is irrelevant to those who did not play arrival because marines did it on their playthrough. Wether its canon or not the point originally is this is when shepard got indoc, if he did not go the ending should be different if thats when he got indoc'd regardless of wether its canon or not.

it should be.... but it isnt, so its canon.

[Aiyie]

Bob3terd wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
They are more cannon then the choicesin the games because no matter what the players do, the events of the book happen. That's way they are cannon.

They aren't more canon than Wreav leading the Krogan over Wrex leading them. That's why there is no canon systme to speak of. 

Again, no matter what the player does...Anderson met Saren 20 years before ME1.....And Anderson tell you about it.
No matter what, Cerberus tries to get Gillian Grayson back....And Tali tells you about it.
No matter what, Anderson shoots Kai Lang in the knees in ME:retrubution....And Anderson tells you this.
As Player we can control were Wrex or wreave is in charge..... But we have no control on the events in the bookd...That is why they are cannon...Because they always happen.

Arrival however does not always happen to shepard, depending on wether you played it or not. The book is irrelevant to those who did not play arrival because marines did it on their playthrough. Wether its canon or not the point originally is this is when shepard got indoc, if he did not go the ending should be different if thats when he got indoc'd regardless of wether its canon or not.

actually it does.

regardless of whether you, the player, completed arrival or not... canonically it happened.  what the exact sequence of events surrounding Arrival are is up for debate in that case, since its never explicitly stated...

but the fact that you went to Batarian space, rescued Kenson, and crashed an asteroid into a relay and wiped out a few hundred thousand Batarians is canon, and does not change regardless of anything the player does, or does not do.

its the entire reason you are on Earth in lockup, with the Normandy confiscated by the Alliance, at the start of ME3.

same sort of thing as happened with Liara becoming the Broker... it happens whether you did LoTSB or not.

Modifié par Aiyie, 22 mai 2012 - 04:34 .

[dreman9999]

Bob3terd wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
They are more cannon then the choicesin the games because no matter what the players do, the events of the book happen. That's way they are cannon.

They aren't more canon than Wreav leading the Krogan over Wrex leading them. That's why there is no canon systme to speak of. 

Again, no matter what the player does...Anderson met Saren 20 years before ME1.....And Anderson tell you about it.
No matter what, Cerberus tries to get Gillian Grayson back....And Tali tells you about it.
No matter what, Anderson shoots Kai Lang in the knees in ME:retrubution....And Anderson tells you this.
As Player we can control were Wrex or wreave is in charge..... But we have no control on the events in the bookd...That is why they are cannon...Because they always happen.

Arrival however does not always happen to shepard, depending on wether you played it or not. The book is irrelevant to those who did not play arrival because marines did it on their playthrough. Wether its canon or not the point originally is this is when shepard got indoc, if he did not go the ending should be different if thats when he got indoc'd regardless of wether its canon or not.

Shepard doesn have to help Liara becaome the Shadow broker....She still becomes the Shadow broker anyway....
Sme concept with indoctrination, BW would just use something else...Like the 3 years of on and of contact with reaper tech Shepard had.

[The Night Mammoth]

dreman9999 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Difficult to say. His motivations for helping Sovereign were his own, to start with. The Reaper didn't persuade him as far as I know, he basically volunteerd. 

Only later, after he had parts implanted, did he fall fully under Sovereign's control. Whether the implants contributed is unknown, but we know indoctrination is largely a mentail process, and not a physical one. 

doesnt indoctrination make you want to help the reapers?  

It does, eventually. But Saren began helping Sovereign due to his own motivations and ideals, rather than control.

At the start. Obviously, he was a thrall before he realised the truth. 

That makes no sense.....The reapershave been know to warp a person idealology to help them...And you saying that they are not doing it now? Remeber, you did convince him to help you in the end.

No, I'm not saying anything of the sort. 

I said Saren began helping Sovereign because of his own motivations and ideals. He volunteered, seeing the Reapers as an unstoppable foe and the only way anyone could survive is to help them. 

Eventually he was indoctrinated. 

[Hadeedak]

Aiyie wrote...

Bob3terd wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
They are more cannon then the choicesin the games because no matter what the players do, the events of the book happen. That's way they are cannon.

They aren't more canon than Wreav leading the Krogan over Wrex leading them. That's why there is no canon systme to speak of. 

Again, no matter what the player does...Anderson met Saren 20 years before ME1.....And Anderson tell you about it.
No matter what, Cerberus tries to get Gillian Grayson back....And Tali tells you about it.
No matter what, Anderson shoots Kai Lang in the knees in ME:retrubution....And Anderson tells you this.
As Player we can control were Wrex or wreave is in charge..... But we have no control on the events in the bookd...That is why they are cannon...Because they always happen.

Arrival however does not always happen to shepard, depending on wether you played it or not. The book is irrelevant to those who did not play arrival because marines did it on their playthrough. Wether its canon or not the point originally is this is when shepard got indoc, if he did not go the ending should be different if thats when he got indoc'd regardless of wether its canon or not.

actually it does.

regardless of whether you, the player, completed arrival or not... canonically it happened.

its the entire reason you are on Earth in lockup, with the Normandy confiscated by the Alliance, at the start of ME3.

Or because you were working for Cerberus, which is what the game tells you if you played without arrival.

[The Night Mammoth]

dreman9999 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
They are more cannon then the choicesin the games because no matter what the players do, the events of the book happen. That's way they are cannon.

They aren't more canon than Wreav leading the Krogan over Wrex leading them. That's why there is no canon systme to speak of. 

Again, no matter what the player does...Anderson met Saren 20 years before ME1.....And Anderson tell you about it.
No matter what, Cerberus tries to get Gillian Grayson back....And Tali tells you about it.
No matter what, Anderson shoots Kai Lang in the knees in ME:retrubution....And Anderson tells you this.
As Player we can control were Wrex or wreave is in charge..... But we have no control on the events in the bookd...That is why they are cannon...Because they always happen.

That's not what canon and non-canon means. 

I know those are fixed events, but they aren't 'canon'. 

[Aiyie]

Hadeedak wrote...

Aiyie wrote...

Bob3terd wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
They are more cannon then the choicesin the games because no matter what the players do, the events of the book happen. That's way they are cannon.

They aren't more canon than Wreav leading the Krogan over Wrex leading them. That's why there is no canon systme to speak of. 

Again, no matter what the player does...Anderson met Saren 20 years before ME1.....And Anderson tell you about it.
No matter what, Cerberus tries to get Gillian Grayson back....And Tali tells you about it.
No matter what, Anderson shoots Kai Lang in the knees in ME:retrubution....And Anderson tells you this.
As Player we can control were Wrex or wreave is in charge..... But we have no control on the events in the bookd...That is why they are cannon...Because they always happen.

Arrival however does not always happen to shepard, depending on wether you played it or not. The book is irrelevant to those who did not play arrival because marines did it on their playthrough. Wether its canon or not the point originally is this is when shepard got indoc, if he did not go the ending should be different if thats when he got indoc'd regardless of wether its canon or not.

actually it does.

regardless of whether you, the player, completed arrival or not... canonically it happened.

its the entire reason you are on Earth in lockup, with the Normandy confiscated by the Alliance, at the start of ME3.

Or because you were working for Cerberus, which is what the game tells you if you played without arrival.

hmm, ok, i can't speak for that.

still though, the fact that Liara is the shadow broker no matter what, tells us that some things are canon, regardless of player input.

i am curious here though...

if you did BDTS in ME1, but didn't do Arrival, how does the conversation with that Batarian in the citadel holding bay go?  because i know that he mentioned me blowing up a relay in batarian space when i talked to him... but then again, i had done both BDTS and Arrival.

[llbountyhunter]

Hadeedak wrote...

Aiyie wrote...

Bob3terd wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
They are more cannon then the choicesin the games because no matter what the players do, the events of the book happen. That's way they are cannon.

They aren't more canon than Wreav leading the Krogan over Wrex leading them. That's why there is no canon systme to speak of. 

Again, no matter what the player does...Anderson met Saren 20 years before ME1.....And Anderson tell you about it.
No matter what, Cerberus tries to get Gillian Grayson back....And Tali tells you about it.
No matter what, Anderson shoots Kai Lang in the knees in ME:retrubution....And Anderson tells you this.
As Player we can control were Wrex or wreave is in charge..... But we have no control on the events in the bookd...That is why they are cannon...Because they always happen.

Arrival however does not always happen to shepard, depending on wether you played it or not. The book is irrelevant to those who did not play arrival because marines did it on their playthrough. Wether its canon or not the point originally is this is when shepard got indoc, if he did not go the ending should be different if thats when he got indoc'd regardless of wether its canon or not.

actually it does.

regardless of whether you, the player, completed arrival or not... canonically it happened.

its the entire reason you are on Earth in lockup, with the Normandy confiscated by the Alliance, at the start of ME3.

Or because you were working for Cerberus, which is what the game tells you if you played without arrival.

thats just a easy cover-up explanation..... I guess it depends on what you consider to be "canon"

[Aiyie]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
They are more cannon then the choicesin the games because no matter what the players do, the events of the book happen. That's way they are cannon.

They aren't more canon than Wreav leading the Krogan over Wrex leading them. That's why there is no canon systme to speak of. 

Again, no matter what the player does...Anderson met Saren 20 years before ME1.....And Anderson tell you about it.
No matter what, Cerberus tries to get Gillian Grayson back....And Tali tells you about it.
No matter what, Anderson shoots Kai Lang in the knees in ME:retrubution....And Anderson tells you this.
As Player we can control were Wrex or wreave is in charge..... But we have no control on the events in the bookd...That is why they are cannon...Because they always happen.

That's not what canon and non-canon means. 

I know those are fixed events, but they aren't 'canon'. 

how so?  i always thought of canon as being fixed events that the authors decided happened, irregardless of what the reader/player does.

sort of like how, in Kotor, even if you make your Revan a woman and go dark side... its canon that he was a dude and went back to the light side in the end... because the writers wanted it to be that way.

edit: this also happens to be why i never really had a problem with the lack of choice in ME3... to me it was never my story, it was someone's else's story that i was being allowed to view from different angles.

Modifié par Aiyie, 22 mai 2012 - 04:41 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Aiyie wrote...

how so?  i always thought of canon as being fixed events that the authors decided happened, irregardless of what the reader/player does.

sort of like how, in Kotor, even if you make your Revan a woman and go dark side... its canon that he was a dude and went back to the light side in the end... because the writers wanted it to be that way.

edit: this also happens to be why i never really had a problem with the lack of choice in ME3... to me it was never my story, it was someone's else's story that i was being allowed to view from different angles.

Well, it would be if certain points of the story were valued over others. 

It's just that every eventuality, every variable, every different outcome this game allows is no better than any other. There's no one playthrough or story that prevails over others. 

Hence, 'canon' by its conventional meaning doesn't apply. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 22 mai 2012 - 04:48 .

[macrocarl]

Whether adding Reaper tech to one's body counts as indoc or not (it's kind of open to interpretation from what I've read) we don't know how long a time Indoc needs to get started. We don't know if it can be accumulative over a period of time, (like radiation therapy for instance) and so ultimately we don't know if the exposure Shep has had over the course of 3 games constitutes Reaper indoc or not. Although there's a real strong case.
Another thing to take note of is if Vega isn't referring to the buzzing of the Normandy's engine than he may be being effected by Reaper indoc via long distance transmissions. Now, since Vega's standing right next to Shep when he says it, it would make sense that Shep is within the sphere of influence as well. -Just wanted to bring up those points.

[Elite Midget]

thesnake777 wrote...

I think IT is a well thought out explanation. However I dont think thats what happened here.

They planned it than dropped it because it was "Too hard". So instead they gave us the Godchild and called it a day.

[Hadeedak]

Well, here's what happens in Arrival if you don't play it. Hackett sends a team of  marines in. They all die, but they relay is exploded.

In Shadow Broker, Liara takes an army of mercs. Feron dies. And Shepard is surprised to learn what her/his little blue buddy has been up to.

[dreman9999]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Aiyie wrote...

how so?  i always thought of canon as being fixed events that the authors decided happened, irregardless of what the reader/player does.

sort of like how, in Kotor, even if you make your Revan a woman and go dark side... its canon that he was a dude and went back to the light side in the end... because the writers wanted it to be that way.

edit: this also happens to be why i never really had a problem with the lack of choice in ME3... to me it was never my story, it was someone's else's story that i was being allowed to view from different angles.

Well, it would be if certain points of the story were valued over others. 

It's just that every eventuality, every variable, every different outcome this game allows is no better than any other. There's no one playthrough or story that prevails over others. 

Hence, 'canon' by its conventional meaning doesn't apply. 

You clearly going in circle. Saying it's not cannon even if it always happens no matter what makes no sense.
That like say ME's main character is Shepardis non-cannon. Or Shepard becaoming a spectre is non-cannon.

[llbountyhunter]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Well, it would be if certain points of the story were valued over others. 

It's just that every eventuality, every variable, every different outcome this game allows is no better than any other. There's no one playthrough or story that prevails over others. 

Hence, 'canon' by its conventional meaning doesn't apply. 

but some points are favored.. the shepard in the books/comics,  

made anderson counsler
kept the collector base
destroyed relay in arrival

 

[dreman9999]

Hadeedak wrote...

Well, here's what happens in Arrival if you don't play it. Hackett sends a team of  marines in. They all die, but they relay is exploded.

In Shadow Broker, Liara takes an army of mercs. Feron dies. And Shepard is surprised to learn what her/his little blue buddy has been up to.

But he plot is still written around it.... Not doing arrival doen't change the fact that Shepard is arrested. They just us a different reason why. The same can be said about indoctrination. If Shepard never was in arrival,he still in the process of indoctrination any way because of the 3 years of no and off contact with reaper tech.

[Hadeedak]

Shepard's been dead for two of those years.

[dreman9999]

Elite Midget wrote...

thesnake777 wrote...

I think IT is a well thought out explanation. However I dont think thats what happened here.

They planned it than dropped it because it was "Too hard". So instead they gave us the Godchild and called it a day.

No, they planned one way to revail it becuase it was too hard.. They changed it to Showing TIM controling Shepard with indoctriantion to reveal that Shepard is under the process of indoctrination.

[dreman9999]

Hadeedak wrote...

Shepard's been dead for two of those years.

Indoctrination does not go away. He still has lot of contact with reaper tech in ME1 and ME2.

[llbountyhunter]

Hadeedak wrote...

Shepard's been dead for two of those years.

that makes it five years... he was talking about since me1