702 réponses à ce sujet

[Tom Lehrer]

Mac Walters can't even write a good comic but people still think he can pull something like IT off?

[Inebrianus]

What about the prothean VI on Thessia? Apparently it has the ability to detect the presence of indoctrinated people but he said nothing to Shepard. For those who insist that the indoctrinated presence he mentioned just before Kai Leng arrives actually meant Shepard, then why would he willingly give the secret of catalyst in the cerberus base to Shepard if Shepard was indoctrinated at that point?

[FoxShadowblade]

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

And Javik certainly isn't canon in my game. No one's aware of his existance.

 

The **** you talking about? He is canon, BioWare has established that.

What is with all the dense people around here?

[KingZayd]

Aaleel wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Vapaä wrote...

ohupthis wrote...

Scientists on the 'dead' reaper, were indoc'd in a few hours, starting with the first few hours, having suspicions of being watched.

Few hours ? One of the scientists start having hallucinations after three days with headache

LadySayuri wrote...

In Arrival, Shepard was asleep in the Project Base for two whole days, very near the artifact that indoctrinated Kenson.

Arrival is not canon

And why would Shepards not doing Arrival be more canon than Shepards doing Arrival?

Well neither is canon.  What happened in your game happened in your game.  If someone wants to use Arrival as proof of why their Shepard may have been indoctrinated, fine.  But no one should use it as proof as to why someone elses Shepard may be indoctrinated.

There's no explanation for why Shepards who have done Arrival. and HAVE been exposed to Object Rho aren't indoctrinated, despite everyone else who has been similarly exposed becoming indoctrinated.

Now, seeing as Bioware have made it so that both types of Shepard (arrival and non-arrival) end up with the same consequences plotwise (as seen with the grounding of the normandy), do you think they would give the types different levels of indoctrination? if not, why would they choose to make Arrival meaningless and not contribute to the story at all?

[FoxShadowblade]

Inebrianus wrote...

What about the prothean VI on Thessia? Apparently it has the ability to detect the presence of indoctrinated people but he said nothing to Shepard. For those who insist that the indoctrinated presence he mentioned just before Kai Leng arrives actually meant Shepard, then why would he willingly give the secret of catalyst in the cerberus base to Shepard if Shepard was indoctrinated at that point?

The VI did mention something about security protocols being broken..or something. Shepard being indoctrinated is a good theory, it just isn't true.

As established by BioWare

When the hell are people going to get that?

[Taboo]

[Seboist]

Tom Lehrer wrote...

Mac Walters can't even write a good comic but people still think he can pull something like IT off?

The ITers are so deluded that they can't see the forest for the trees. That "theory" falls apart the moment you take a quick look at the previous hackery of the writers.

[Vapaa]

KingZayd wrote...

And why would Shepards not doing Arrival be more canon than Shepards doing Arrival?

Neither of them are canon, it's just that people can't use Arrival to support the IT

KingZayd wrote...

There's no explanation for why Shepards who have done Arrival.

Yes there is

Modifié par Vapaä, 21 mai 2012 - 12:04 .

[KingZayd]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Pretty sure with IT Shepard would have to be super ultra special, not the other way around.

not really.

Well he breaks free of indoctrination, something that no one is able to do. That makes him super ultra special.

He resists indoctrination, if only for a while.

After Vermire (where Shepard told him he was indoctrinated), Saren started to have doubts. Sovereign responded by implanting Saren, and deepening his indoctrination (to a point where he was still able to put a bullet in his brain) . If resisting indoctrination wasn't possible why implant him and deepen his indoctrination? Was Saren super ultra special?

[Adugan]

IT has a shape that fits into all the plotholes in ME3. However, sometimes circles do fit into square holes... it is just a coincidence because of the large amount of plot holes in the game.

[Aaleel]

Inebrianus wrote...

What about the prothean VI on Thessia? Apparently it has the ability to detect the presence of indoctrinated people but he said nothing to Shepard. For those who insist that the indoctrinated presence he mentioned just before Kai Leng arrives actually meant Shepard, then why would he willingly give the secret of catalyst in the cerberus base to Shepard if Shepard was indoctrinated at that point?

Well to fair, it said that Cerberus deactivated it's security protocols, so it would have told anyone. 

But the VI obviously wasn't talking about Shepard on Thessia.  It said that if Shepard insisted on fighting on it woud help him/her with the Crucible, so it trusted Shepard.  It was onviously talking about Kai Leng.

I've seen some people say that you weren't indoctrinated then and aren't indoctrinated until you pick control.  They're a bunch of different versions of the Indoctrination Theories, so it really depends on who you're talking to.

[KingZayd]

Vapaä wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

And why would Shepards not doing Arrival be more canon than Shepards doing Arrival?

Neither of them are canon, it's just that people can't use Arrival to support the IT

KingZayd wrote...

There's no explanation for why Shepards who have done Arrival.

Yes there is

So please,  explain why Shepards who have done Arrival are immune to these artifacts that have indoctrinated everyone else they've activated on?

[Seboist]

KingZayd wrote...

There's no explanation for why Shepards who have done Arrival. and HAVE been exposed to Object Rho aren't indoctrinated, despite everyone else who has been similarly exposed becoming indoctrinated.

Now, seeing as Bioware have made it so that both types of Shepard (arrival and non-arrival) end up with the same consequences plotwise (as seen with the grounding of the normandy), do you think they would give the types different levels of indoctrination? if not, why would they choose to make Arrival meaningless and not contribute to the story at all?

You realize you're talking about the same writers who used Shepard ressurection as little more than a cheap plot device to fast forward two years and who had such a groundbreaking medical advance amount to absolutely nothing don't you? The exploration of the theme of mortality is the kind of thing that seperates genuine sci-fi from pulp schlock from the 30s.

And Arrival is just a speck of sand in a desert full of plot points and foreshadowing that go absolutely nowhere in ME.

[Clayless]

KingZayd wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Pretty sure with IT Shepard would have to be super ultra special, not the other way around.

not really.

Well he breaks free of indoctrination, something that no one is able to do. That makes him super ultra special.

He resists indoctrination, if only for a while.

After Vermire (where Shepard told him he was indoctrinated), Saren started to have doubts. Sovereign responded by implanting Saren, and deepening his indoctrination (to a point where he was still able to put a bullet in his brain) . If resisting indoctrination wasn't possible why implant him and deepen his indoctrination? Was Saren super ultra special?

Resisting it isn't the same as overcoming it. You would then continue the game with a Shepard that has the Reapers best interests at heart.

[Aaleel]

KingZayd wrote...

There's no explanation for why Shepards who have done Arrival. and HAVE been exposed to Object Rho aren't indoctrinated, despite everyone else who has been similarly exposed becoming indoctrinated.

Now, seeing as Bioware have made it so that both types of Shepard (arrival and non-arrival) end up with the same consequences plotwise (as seen with the grounding of the normandy), do you think they would give the types different levels of indoctrination? if not, why would they choose to make Arrival meaningless and not contribute to the story at all?

Well all Shepard's a different past arrival, that's why I don't agree with the IT, it makes all Shepard's equal.  They all had the same exposure to reaper tech, there are side missions in ME3 dealing with reaper tech that Shepard's may not have done. 

- All Shepard's didn't take the Virmire death the same.
- Some Shepard's have the guilt of not going to get their crew in time and many dying, and some saved their entire crew.
- Some Shepard's lost people on the SM, some lost none.
- SOme Shepard's just lost Mordin and Legion in ME3, some lost more people.

But everyone ends up in the exact same mental state, with the exact same exposure to reaper tech fighting in their mind.  I just don't agree with it.

[AtlasMickey]

IT is neither well-thought-out nor does it explain anything.

Shepard is able to resist indoctrination because she's strong in mind and character. That is more than a sufficient explanation.

[Taboo]

AtlasMickey wrote...

IT is neither well-thought-out nor does it explain anything.

Shepard is able to resist indoctrination because she's strong in mind and character. That is more than a sufficient explanation.

This.

[KingZayd]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Pretty sure with IT Shepard would have to be super ultra special, not the other way around.

not really.

Well he breaks free of indoctrination, something that no one is able to do. That makes him super ultra special.

He resists indoctrination, if only for a while.

After Vermire (where Shepard told him he was indoctrinated), Saren started to have doubts. Sovereign responded by implanting Saren, and deepening his indoctrination (to a point where he was still able to put a bullet in his brain) . If resisting indoctrination wasn't possible why implant him and deepen his indoctrination? Was Saren super ultra special?

Resisting it isn't the same as overcoming it. You would then continue the game with a Shepard that has the Reapers best interests at heart.

Who says the indoctrination is gone (overcome) in either case? I don't. The way i see it, is the choice determines how much more indoctrinated Shepard becomes when he wakes up. The series has portrayed indoctrination as being more than a discrete (1 or 0) variable, and instead is more of a continuous variable.

Shiala can hear the voices, and refers to herself as indoctrinated despite being in control. The way i understand it, indoctrination is a continuous variable that increases with time once it is started, and happens faster the more reapers there are in the galaxy (Shiala, doesn't hear the voice when only Sovereign is in the galaxy, doesn't when no reapers are in the galaxy, but hears them when tons are in the galaxy).

and on the flip side, who says ALL free will is gone for either case? yes, the more indoctrinated you are, the less able free will  you have but it is more than zero. At the very least, i'd imagine a paragon interrupt suicide would be possible.

[KingZayd]

Aaleel wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

There's no explanation for why Shepards who have done Arrival. and HAVE been exposed to Object Rho aren't indoctrinated, despite everyone else who has been similarly exposed becoming indoctrinated.

Now, seeing as Bioware have made it so that both types of Shepard (arrival and non-arrival) end up with the same consequences plotwise (as seen with the grounding of the normandy), do you think they would give the types different levels of indoctrination? if not, why would they choose to make Arrival meaningless and not contribute to the story at all?

Well all Shepard's a different past arrival, that's why I don't agree with the IT, it makes all Shepard's equal.  They all had the same exposure to reaper tech, there are side missions in ME3 dealing with reaper tech that Shepard's may not have done. 

- All Shepard's didn't take the Virmire death the same.
- Some Shepard's have the guilt of not going to get their crew in time and many dying, and some saved their entire crew.
- Some Shepard's lost people on the SM, some lost none.
- SOme Shepard's just lost Mordin and Legion in ME3, some lost more people.

But everyone ends up in the exact same mental state, with the exact same exposure to reaper tech fighting in their mind.  I just don't agree with it.

Not IT also makes all the Shepards equal by ignoring Object Rho.

Modifié par KingZayd, 21 mai 2012 - 12:18 .

[KingZayd]

Seboist wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

There's no explanation for why Shepards who have done Arrival. and HAVE been exposed to Object Rho aren't indoctrinated, despite everyone else who has been similarly exposed becoming indoctrinated.

Now, seeing as Bioware have made it so that both types of Shepard (arrival and non-arrival) end up with the same consequences plotwise (as seen with the grounding of the normandy), do you think they would give the types different levels of indoctrination? if not, why would they choose to make Arrival meaningless and not contribute to the story at all?

You realize you're talking about the same writers who used Shepard ressurection as little more than a cheap plot device to fast forward two years and who had such a groundbreaking medical advance amount to absolutely nothing don't you? The exploration of the theme of mortality is the kind of thing that seperates genuine sci-fi from pulp schlock from the 30s.

And Arrival is just a speck of sand in a desert full of plot points and foreshadowing that go absolutely nowhere in ME.

And yet, Arrival was made while ME3 was being planned. You don't think that maybe they decided to put some relevant plot points in Arrival? You think they decided to ignore the whole expansion completely?

[Dude_in_the_Room]

alec1898 wrote...

Riddle me this.

Why give Shepard the ability to destroy the reapers if he in turn breaks their hold on him?

That could be easily explained.

Sheps mind might have conjured that during the dream state of indoctrination since it was on his mind for 3 full games.

[KingZayd]

AtlasMickey wrote...

IT is neither well-thought-out nor does it explain anything.

Shepard is able to resist indoctrination because she's strong in mind and character. That is more than a sufficient explanation.

Strange then, that (s)he's the only one in the galaxy that is strong in mind and character. except Shiala. But then she hears the voices, Shepard doesn't. His mind is stronger than the hive mind? WOW

[Vapaa]

KingZayd wrote...

So please,  explain why Shepards who have done Arrival are immune to these artifacts that have indoctrinated everyone else they've activated on?

Oh you meant this, sorry I misread

As for your question, I have no explanation but I can made some handwave up if you want

[jijeebo]

KingZayd wrote...

Seboist wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

There's no explanation for why Shepards who have done Arrival. and HAVE been exposed to Object Rho aren't indoctrinated, despite everyone else who has been similarly exposed becoming indoctrinated.

Now, seeing as Bioware have made it so that both types of Shepard (arrival and non-arrival) end up with the same consequences plotwise (as seen with the grounding of the normandy), do you think they would give the types different levels of indoctrination? if not, why would they choose to make Arrival meaningless and not contribute to the story at all?

You realize you're talking about the same writers who used Shepard ressurection as little more than a cheap plot device to fast forward two years and who had such a groundbreaking medical advance amount to absolutely nothing don't you? The exploration of the theme of mortality is the kind of thing that seperates genuine sci-fi from pulp schlock from the 30s.

And Arrival is just a speck of sand in a desert full of plot points and foreshadowing that go absolutely nowhere in ME.

And yet, Arrival was made while ME3 was being planned. You don't think that maybe they decided to put some relevant plot points in Arrival? You think they decided to ignore the whole expansion completely?

Well they wrote in the alternative scenario in ME3 AFTER they'd done Arrival, so yes... They decided to ignore the expansion.

Just like they more or less ignored the Rachni Queen and Collector Base decisions, both of which were a lot more important imo.

[Clayless]

KingZayd wrote...


Who says the indoctrination is gone (overcome) in either case? I don't. The way i see it, is the choice determines how much more indoctrinated Shepard becomes when he wakes up. The series has portrayed indoctrination as being more than a discrete (1 or 0) variable, and instead is more of a continuous variable.

Shiala can hear the voices, and refers to herself as indoctrinated despite being in control. The way i understand it, indoctrination is a continuous variable that increases with time once it is started, and happens faster the more reapers there are in the galaxy (Shiala, doesn't hear the voice when only Sovereign is in the galaxy, doesn't when no reapers are in the galaxy, but hears them when tons are in the galaxy).

and on the flip side, who says ALL free will is gone for either case? yes, the more indoctrinated you are, the less able free will  you have but it is more than zero. At the very least, i'd imagine a paragon interrupt suicide would be possible.

Seeing as though all of reality is warped and you need to do fantastic to get a high enough EMS to break free, it's pretty safe to assume Shepard was heavily indoctrinated. Despite having warped views both TIM and Saren could tell the difference between reality and dreams, whereas Shepard reached the stage where he's indoctrinated enough to completely re-imagine reality and it's incredibly difficult to break free.

Every strong willed character in the game could resist long enough to shoot themselves in the head or relay a few lines of dialogue, with that level of indoctrination Shepard would never be able to climb out of rubble, reach the conduit, activate the Crucible and fight off TIM whilst being heavily injured. It just stretches the level of implausability to the extreme.