702 réponses à ce sujet

[Seboist]

KingZayd wrote...

Seboist wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

There's no explanation for why Shepards who have done Arrival. and HAVE been exposed to Object Rho aren't indoctrinated, despite everyone else who has been similarly exposed becoming indoctrinated.

Now, seeing as Bioware have made it so that both types of Shepard (arrival and non-arrival) end up with the same consequences plotwise (as seen with the grounding of the normandy), do you think they would give the types different levels of indoctrination? if not, why would they choose to make Arrival meaningless and not contribute to the story at all?

You realize you're talking about the same writers who used Shepard ressurection as little more than a cheap plot device to fast forward two years and who had such a groundbreaking medical advance amount to absolutely nothing don't you? The exploration of the theme of mortality is the kind of thing that seperates genuine sci-fi from pulp schlock from the 30s.

And Arrival is just a speck of sand in a desert full of plot points and foreshadowing that go absolutely nowhere in ME.

And yet, Arrival was made while ME3 was being planned. You don't think that maybe they decided to put some relevant plot points in Arrival? You think they decided to ignore the whole expansion completely?

Of course. The whole Batarian issue? Irrelevent in ME3. The subtle indicator you could continue working with Cerberus in ME3(Hackett only says "this isn't a Cerberus ship if base was destroyed)? Also Irrrelevent.

Here's a short list I made recently of other plot points that go absolutely nowhere.

ME1:

- Council and/or Udina recognizing the Reaper threat and preparing for war.

-Wrex being pissed at the Rachni Queen being released and vowing that the Krogans with deal with them.

-Balak warning of a great wave of violence as the "Batarian nation"
rises up. In retrospect the Batarians not being a key player in ME2 is
mind boggling.

- The all human council (they had to axe this due to "ah yes reapers" retardation)

Ascension novel:

-The Quarians scheming to get a Reaper to control the Geth.

ME2:

- Xen wanting to take control of the Geth

- The Geth Dyson sphere

- Dark Energy

- Cerberus controlled Geth plot with Overlord.

- Liara as a major supporting character as the Shadow Broker.

- Why Harbinger wanted Shepard's body

Retribution novel:

- TIM being open to the possibility of working with Shepard and/or Anderson again.

- Cerberus being severely crippled(uh huh)

Modifié par Seboist, 21 mai 2012 - 12:35 .

[LadySayuri]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Shepard has never had to justify being able to resist indoctrination because Shepard has never been under the effects of indoctrination. Shepard has never had waking-visions and halucinations, voices in the head while awake, professed empathy or understanding/admiration for Reaper ideals, or seen the resolution waver.

Shepard has never been under prolonged exposure to Reaper indoctrination either: the only opportunity was at Arrival, but for their own (plot) reasons the Reapers wanted Shepard's mind and body intact.

Indoctrination has degrees, just because Shepard's halucinations were in dreams instead of while awake doesn't mean they aren't proof of indoctrination. Look at TIM. In the very beginning of ME2, before Shepard dies, we see that TIM has the glowing blue eyes that are a sign of indoctrination. Two years later, even though his motives are unclear, he is still trying to stop the Reapers by stopping the Collectors. It wasn't until ME3 that TIM wanted to control the Reapers instead of destroying him. My point is that just because Shepard wasn't willing to surrender to the Reapers doesn't mean they did not have some hold on her. As for the resolution wavering, isn't that exactly what happens in the Crucible? Were there not some conflict in Shepard's mind, the Destroy option would have been the only option. And it certainly wouldn't have been presented as the Renegade choice. Now that I think about it, didn't Shepard see Anderson and TIM making those decisions in, wait, a halucination? Of course that could have just been a cinematic choice or the Catalyst's doing, but it's something to think about.

Now about Shepard never being exposed to Reaper indoctrination. I really don't feel like repeating myself since I already said Shep spent two days in close contact with Rho. Arguing whether Arrival is canon or not is a moot point since Casey has said on record there is no 'canon', that every playthrough is valid. But since Arrival was a bridge to ME3, and putting Shepard under arrest for his work with Cerberus would have set up things just as well, I'm led to believe that there was SOMETHING important about Shep spending so much time near a force of indoctrination.

[Aaleel]

UrgentArchengel wrote...

In addition. Arrival was considered canon. Comics and novels are canon, and in Conviction, it was the reason Shepard was arrested. The only reason it isn't canon anymore is because too many people whined about there Shepard blowing up a Batarian system. Did you ever think that was the point? It's not about what you want. You (Shepard) are dropped into a situation where the ultimate evil is on our door step and the minutes are quite literally counting down. It's not Renegade, your Shepard can try to get the systems to evacuate, but of course that doesn't happen. It's Shepard's greatest failure, after failing to save Kaiden/Ashley. Your not supposed to like it. Your supposed to deal with it, cope with inadvertently killing millions. That's why your on Earth, and the whining is probably why there was no trial.

It had nothing to do with people whining and everything to do with Bioware trying to make ME3 a good jump in point for new players.  They didn't want new players starting their game and saying WTH am I on trial for, what is this all about, I never killed anyone.

Modifié par Aaleel, 21 mai 2012 - 01:07 .

[KingZayd]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

KingZayd wrote...


Who says the indoctrination is gone (overcome) in either case? I don't. The way i see it, is the choice determines how much more indoctrinated Shepard becomes when he wakes up. The series has portrayed indoctrination as being more than a discrete (1 or 0) variable, and instead is more of a continuous variable.

Shiala can hear the voices, and refers to herself as indoctrinated despite being in control. The way i understand it, indoctrination is a continuous variable that increases with time once it is started, and happens faster the more reapers there are in the galaxy (Shiala, doesn't hear the voice when only Sovereign is in the galaxy, doesn't when no reapers are in the galaxy, but hears them when tons are in the galaxy).

and on the flip side, who says ALL free will is gone for either case? yes, the more indoctrinated you are, the less able free will  you have but it is more than zero. At the very least, i'd imagine a paragon interrupt suicide would be possible.

Seeing as though all of reality is warped and you need to do fantastic to get a high enough EMS to break free, it's pretty safe to assume Shepard was heavily indoctrinated. Despite having warped views both TIM and Saren could tell the difference between reality and dreams, whereas Shepard reached the stage where he's indoctrinated enough to completely re-imagine reality and it's incredibly difficult to break free.

Every strong willed character in the game could resist long enough to shoot themselves in the head or relay a few lines of dialogue, with that level of indoctrination Shepard would never be able to climb out of rubble, reach the conduit, activate the Crucible and fight off TIM whilst being heavily injured. It just stretches the level of implausability to the extreme.

Reality can be warped all the time when you're unconscious (being knocked unconscious, and maybe even nearly dead by a Reaper beam). We don't KNOW you need high EMS to break free. Just because you only see the body there with high EMS doesn't mean it's not there anyway. You don't see a corpse there after all.

Saren was having doubts after Vermire. Sovereign had him implanted and the indoctrination was deepened next time you met him. Why bother, if resisting wasn't possible? Even at this late, more heavily indoctrinated stage, Saren was able to blow his brains out. We don't know what he was capable of doing between Vermire and the the implantation.

Saren and TIM are about the only examples we have of people who would be about as strong willed as Shepard, and have to deal with indoctrination. Sovereign was apparently worried that Saren could rebel, hence the implantation. Evolution, suggests TIM has been slightly indoctrinated since the Contact War. Since he's been helping through ME2, that would suggest TIM has been fighting indoctrination for a while.

[Malditor]

I wonder if you ever thought about maybe that is the reason that the Reapers have been so interested in Shepard. They noticed he never has been able to be touched by indoctrination and therefore is an anomoly that they need in order to find out why. That would explain why they always need to take him alive instead of just destroying him like anything else that defies them.

[UrgentArchengel]

@KingZayd. Remember. Both Saren and TIM were extremely interested in Reaper Indoctrination. We know Saren was trying to see if he could stop Soverign from indoctrinating him, but maybe TIM was trying to be more proactive and extreme. Why stop them when he could just do the same to them. I could see TIM screaming at reaper images and reports, "Control me will you? Let's see how you like it!" There are lots of similarities between the two when you think of it.

[UrgentArchengel]

Malditor wrote...

I wonder if you ever thought about maybe that is the reason that the Reapers have been so interested in Shepard. They noticed he never has been able to be touched by indoctrination and therefore is an anomoly that they need in order to find out why. That would explain why they always need to take him alive instead of just destroying him like anything else that defies them.

I highly doubt it, but if Shepard were to be immune, that would definiately make sense.

[Clayless]

KingZayd wrote...

Reality can be warped all the time when you're unconscious (being knocked unconscious, and maybe even nearly dead by a Reaper beam). We don't KNOW you need high EMS to break free. Just because you only see the body there with high EMS doesn't mean it's not there anyway. You don't see a corpse there after all.

Saren was having doubts after Vermire. Sovereign had him implanted and the indoctrination was deepened next time you met him. Why bother, if resisting wasn't possible? Even at this late, more heavily indoctrinated stage, Saren was able to blow his brains out. We don't know what he was capable of doing between Vermire and the the implantation.

Saren and TIM are about the only examples we have of people who would be about as strong willed as Shepard, and have to deal with indoctrination. Sovereign was apparently worried that Saren could rebel, hence the implantation. Evolution, suggests TIM has been slightly indoctrinated since the Contact War. Since he's been helping through ME2, that would suggest TIM has been fighting indoctrination for a while.

Despite that, both of them never got to the stage of indoctrination where they couldn't tell reality from dreams. Shepard did. Also what happens to Shepard if he picks one of the other 2 options? Does he die? Doe he get turned into a mindless indoctrinated husk?

That means he's either moments away from death, having to fight off stronger indoctrination than even TIM and Saren had to deal with (TIM was quite husk like but even he wasn't moments away from being mindless), or both. At that stage, despite his ability to resist, he wouldn't be able to continue.

[Aaleel]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Reality can be warped all the time when you're unconscious (being knocked unconscious, and maybe even nearly dead by a Reaper beam). We don't KNOW you need high EMS to break free. Just because you only see the body there with high EMS doesn't mean it's not there anyway. You don't see a corpse there after all.

Saren was having doubts after Vermire. Sovereign had him implanted and the indoctrination was deepened next time you met him. Why bother, if resisting wasn't possible? Even at this late, more heavily indoctrinated stage, Saren was able to blow his brains out. We don't know what he was capable of doing between Vermire and the the implantation.

Saren and TIM are about the only examples we have of people who would be about as strong willed as Shepard, and have to deal with indoctrination. Sovereign was apparently worried that Saren could rebel, hence the implantation. Evolution, suggests TIM has been slightly indoctrinated since the Contact War. Since he's been helping through ME2, that would suggest TIM has been fighting indoctrination for a while.

Despite that, both of them never got to the stage of indoctrination where they couldn't tell reality from dreams. Shepard did. Also what happens to Shepard if he picks one of the other 2 options? Does he die? Doe he get turned into a mindless indoctrinated husk?

That means he's either moments away from death, having to fight off stronger indoctrination than even TIM and Saren had to deal with (TIM was quite husk like but even he wasn't moments away from being mindless), or both. At that stage, despite his ability to resist, he wouldn't be able to continue.

Moreso if you take the part of the IT that says the boy on Earth is fake.  They were making Shepard see visions while wide awake at a very early stage of the game.

[KingZayd]

Seboist wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Seboist wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

There's no explanation for why Shepards who have done Arrival. and HAVE been exposed to Object Rho aren't indoctrinated, despite everyone else who has been similarly exposed becoming indoctrinated.

Now, seeing as Bioware have made it so that both types of Shepard (arrival and non-arrival) end up with the same consequences plotwise (as seen with the grounding of the normandy), do you think they would give the types different levels of indoctrination? if not, why would they choose to make Arrival meaningless and not contribute to the story at all?

You realize you're talking about the same writers who used Shepard ressurection as little more than a cheap plot device to fast forward two years and who had such a groundbreaking medical advance amount to absolutely nothing don't you? The exploration of the theme of mortality is the kind of thing that seperates genuine sci-fi from pulp schlock from the 30s.

And Arrival is just a speck of sand in a desert full of plot points and foreshadowing that go absolutely nowhere in ME.

And yet, Arrival was made while ME3 was being planned. You don't think that maybe they decided to put some relevant plot points in Arrival? You think they decided to ignore the whole expansion completely?

Of course. The whole Batarian issue? Irrelevent in ME3. The subtle indicator you could continue working with Cerberus in ME3(Hackett only says "this isn't a Cerberus ship if base was destroyed)? Also Irrrelevent.

Here's a short list I made recently of other plot points that go absolutely nowhere.

ME1:

- Council and/or Udina recognizing the Reaper threat and preparing for war.

-Wrex being pissed at the Rachni Queen being released and vowing that the Krogans with deal with them.

-Balak warning of a great wave of violence as the "Batarian nation"
rises up. In retrospect the Batarians not being a key player in ME2 is
mind boggling.

- The all human council (they had to axe this due to "ah yes reapers" retardation)

Ascension novel:

-The Quarians scheming to get a Reaper to control the Geth.

ME2:

- Xen wanting to take control of the Geth

- The Geth Dyson sphere

- Dark Energy

- Cerberus controlled Geth plot with Overlord.

- Liara as a major supporting character as the Shadow Broker.

- Why Harbinger wanted Shepard's body

Retribution novel:

- TIM being open to the possibility of working with Shepard and/or Anderson again.

- Cerberus being severely crippled(uh huh)

Xen wanting to control the Geth was apparently cut from this game. Apparently her experiments were meant to go out of control.

Dyson sphere was blown up by the Quarians.

It is believed the Crucible makes use of Dark Energy.

If you give Legion to Cerberus, they control him, and he defends the base.

Liara did seem a rubbish Shadow Broker.

Harbinger plans to have Shepard by indoctrinating him, according to Arrival.

TIM might not have been opposed to working with Anderson and Shepard, but they weren't quite so open minded concerning TIM.

Cerberus strengthened itself using Sanctuary, and before the Reapers came.

Also, when did Wrex vow that? He's certainly not happy about it, and believes Shepard's making a huge mistake. That said, Wrex DOES send Aralakh company to either scout/deal with the Rachni.

The Batarian issue is dealt with in ME3. The Batarians are pissed at humans for the destruction of that system, but they're also screwed due to the reapers hitting them first. Also, all those batarians refugess we see.

[KingZayd]

Aaleel wrote...

UrgentArchengel wrote...

In addition. Arrival was considered canon. Comics and novels are canon, and in Conviction, it was the reason Shepard was arrested. The only reason it isn't canon anymore is because too many people whined about there Shepard blowing up a Batarian system. Did you ever think that was the point? It's not about what you want. You (Shepard) are dropped into a situation where the ultimate evil is on our door step and the minutes are quite literally counting down. It's not Renegade, your Shepard can try to get the systems to evacuate, but of course that doesn't happen. It's Shepard's greatest failure, after failing to save Kaiden/Ashley. Your not supposed to like it. Your supposed to deal with it, cope with inadvertently killing millions. That's why your on Earth, and the whining is probably why there was no trial.

It had nothing to do with people whining and everything to do with Bioware trying to make ME3 a good jump in point for new players.  They didn't want new players starting their game and saying WTH am I on trial for, what is this all about, I never killed anyone.

New players? I would be very surprised if they knew much of what was going on. It's a stupid idea to base the ending of a trilogy around "new players".

[Aaleel]

KingZayd wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

UrgentArchengel wrote...

In addition. Arrival was considered canon. Comics and novels are canon, and in Conviction, it was the reason Shepard was arrested. The only reason it isn't canon anymore is because too many people whined about there Shepard blowing up a Batarian system. Did you ever think that was the point? It's not about what you want. You (Shepard) are dropped into a situation where the ultimate evil is on our door step and the minutes are quite literally counting down. It's not Renegade, your Shepard can try to get the systems to evacuate, but of course that doesn't happen. It's Shepard's greatest failure, after failing to save Kaiden/Ashley. Your not supposed to like it. Your supposed to deal with it, cope with inadvertently killing millions. That's why your on Earth, and the whining is probably why there was no trial.

It had nothing to do with people whining and everything to do with Bioware trying to make ME3 a good jump in point for new players.  They didn't want new players starting their game and saying WTH am I on trial for, what is this all about, I never killed anyone.

New players? I would be very surprised if they knew much of what was going on. It's a stupid idea to base the ending of a trilogy around "new players".

That was one of the sales pitches, perfect place to jump in.  I think it's dumb to try and jump in on the final installment of a trilogy too, but they tried.

[KingZayd]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Reality can be warped all the time when you're unconscious (being knocked unconscious, and maybe even nearly dead by a Reaper beam). We don't KNOW you need high EMS to break free. Just because you only see the body there with high EMS doesn't mean it's not there anyway. You don't see a corpse there after all.

Saren was having doubts after Vermire. Sovereign had him implanted and the indoctrination was deepened next time you met him. Why bother, if resisting wasn't possible? Even at this late, more heavily indoctrinated stage, Saren was able to blow his brains out. We don't know what he was capable of doing between Vermire and the the implantation.

Saren and TIM are about the only examples we have of people who would be about as strong willed as Shepard, and have to deal with indoctrination. Sovereign was apparently worried that Saren could rebel, hence the implantation. Evolution, suggests TIM has been slightly indoctrinated since the Contact War. Since he's been helping through ME2, that would suggest TIM has been fighting indoctrination for a while.

Despite that, both of them never got to the stage of indoctrination where they couldn't tell reality from dreams. Shepard did. Also what happens to Shepard if he picks one of the other 2 options? Does he die? Doe he get turned into a mindless indoctrinated husk?

That means he's either moments away from death, having to fight off stronger indoctrination than even TIM and Saren had to deal with (TIM was quite husk like but even he wasn't moments away from being mindless), or both. At that stage, despite his ability to resist, he wouldn't be able to continue.

People outside the mass effect universe also have dreams that seem real at the time. You don't have to be heavily indoctrinated for that. As to how well they slept, how do you know?

Maybe not far from death, but it's not stronger indoctrination,

[KingZayd]

Aaleel wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Reality can be warped all the time when you're unconscious (being knocked unconscious, and maybe even nearly dead by a Reaper beam). We don't KNOW you need high EMS to break free. Just because you only see the body there with high EMS doesn't mean it's not there anyway. You don't see a corpse there after all.

Saren was having doubts after Vermire. Sovereign had him implanted and the indoctrination was deepened next time you met him. Why bother, if resisting wasn't possible? Even at this late, more heavily indoctrinated stage, Saren was able to blow his brains out. We don't know what he was capable of doing between Vermire and the the implantation.

Saren and TIM are about the only examples we have of people who would be about as strong willed as Shepard, and have to deal with indoctrination. Sovereign was apparently worried that Saren could rebel, hence the implantation. Evolution, suggests TIM has been slightly indoctrinated since the Contact War. Since he's been helping through ME2, that would suggest TIM has been fighting indoctrination for a while.

Despite that, both of them never got to the stage of indoctrination where they couldn't tell reality from dreams. Shepard did. Also what happens to Shepard if he picks one of the other 2 options? Does he die? Doe he get turned into a mindless indoctrinated husk?

That means he's either moments away from death, having to fight off stronger indoctrination than even TIM and Saren had to deal with (TIM was quite husk like but even he wasn't moments away from being mindless), or both. At that stage, despite his ability to resist, he wouldn't be able to continue.

Moreso if you take the part of the IT that says the boy on Earth is fake.  They were making Shepard see visions while wide awake at a very early stage of the game.

I don't believe that. In fact I was diagreeing with dreman on his thread about this.

[Aaleel]

KingZayd wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Reality can be warped all the time when you're unconscious (being knocked unconscious, and maybe even nearly dead by a Reaper beam). We don't KNOW you need high EMS to break free. Just because you only see the body there with high EMS doesn't mean it's not there anyway. You don't see a corpse there after all.

Saren was having doubts after Vermire. Sovereign had him implanted and the indoctrination was deepened next time you met him. Why bother, if resisting wasn't possible? Even at this late, more heavily indoctrinated stage, Saren was able to blow his brains out. We don't know what he was capable of doing between Vermire and the the implantation.

Saren and TIM are about the only examples we have of people who would be about as strong willed as Shepard, and have to deal with indoctrination. Sovereign was apparently worried that Saren could rebel, hence the implantation. Evolution, suggests TIM has been slightly indoctrinated since the Contact War. Since he's been helping through ME2, that would suggest TIM has been fighting indoctrination for a while.

Despite that, both of them never got to the stage of indoctrination where they couldn't tell reality from dreams. Shepard did. Also what happens to Shepard if he picks one of the other 2 options? Does he die? Doe he get turned into a mindless indoctrinated husk?

That means he's either moments away from death, having to fight off stronger indoctrination than even TIM and Saren had to deal with (TIM was quite husk like but even he wasn't moments away from being mindless), or both. At that stage, despite his ability to resist, he wouldn't be able to continue.

Moreso if you take the part of the IT that says the boy on Earth is fake.  They were making Shepard see visions while wide awake at a very early stage of the game.

I don't believe that. In fact I was diagreeing with dreman on his thread about this.

I know you don't agree with the kid being a vision for the very reason I listed.  I try and keep track

Modifié par Aaleel, 21 mai 2012 - 01:37 .

[KingZayd]

UrgentArchengel wrote...

@KingZayd. Remember. Both Saren and TIM were extremely interested in Reaper Indoctrination. We know Saren was trying to see if he could stop Soverign from indoctrinating him, but maybe TIM was trying to be more proactive and extreme. Why stop them when he could just do the same to them. I could see TIM screaming at reaper images and reports, "Control me will you? Let's see how you like it!" There are lots of similarities between the two when you think of it.

I think they're both very similar at least in terms of mental strength and determination. thing iswe saw Saren at his worst. We've seen TIM vary considerably. Also, I struggle to imagine TIM screaming at reaper images like that.. he's much more calm than that. What if the cigarettes are a coping mechanism? But the Cerberus base videos do seem to suggest that he's aware of the dangers. Also, i find it interesting that he specifies his special surgery should be done without anaesthetic. Is that a precaution, to prevent him totally losing control  (whether or  not it succeeds in the end) 

[KingZayd]

Aaleel wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

UrgentArchengel wrote...

In addition. Arrival was considered canon. Comics and novels are canon, and in Conviction, it was the reason Shepard was arrested. The only reason it isn't canon anymore is because too many people whined about there Shepard blowing up a Batarian system. Did you ever think that was the point? It's not about what you want. You (Shepard) are dropped into a situation where the ultimate evil is on our door step and the minutes are quite literally counting down. It's not Renegade, your Shepard can try to get the systems to evacuate, but of course that doesn't happen. It's Shepard's greatest failure, after failing to save Kaiden/Ashley. Your not supposed to like it. Your supposed to deal with it, cope with inadvertently killing millions. That's why your on Earth, and the whining is probably why there was no trial.

It had nothing to do with people whining and everything to do with Bioware trying to make ME3 a good jump in point for new players.  They didn't want new players starting their game and saying WTH am I on trial for, what is this all about, I never killed anyone.

New players? I would be very surprised if they knew much of what was going on. It's a stupid idea to base the ending of a trilogy around "new players".

That was one of the sales pitches, perfect place to jump in.  I think it's dumb to try and jump in on the final installment of a trilogy too, but they tried.

Doesn't mean the game was designed for the new players. I think it's just a case of PR, where they try and expand their audience, by saying it's okay if they haven't played the earlier games. But yeah, if that's what they did, then that was stupid.

[UrgentArchengel]

KingZayd wrote...

UrgentArchengel wrote...

@KingZayd. Remember. Both Saren and TIM were extremely interested in Reaper Indoctrination. We know Saren was trying to see if he could stop Soverign from indoctrinating him, but maybe TIM was trying to be more proactive and extreme. Why stop them when he could just do the same to them. I could see TIM screaming at reaper images and reports, "Control me will you? Let's see how you like it!" There are lots of similarities between the two when you think of it.

I think they're both very similar at least in terms of mental strength and determination. thing iswe saw Saren at his worst. We've seen TIM vary considerably. Also, I struggle to imagine TIM screaming at reaper images like that.. he's much more calm than that. What if the cigarettes are a coping mechanism? But the Cerberus base videos do seem to suggest that he's aware of the dangers. Also, i find it interesting that he specifies his special surgery should be done without anaesthetic. Is that a precaution, to prevent him totally losing control  (whether or  not it succeeds in the end) 

Okay, maybe screaming was a bit much, but at least saying it to himself

[KingZayd]

Aaleel wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Reality can be warped all the time when you're unconscious (being knocked unconscious, and maybe even nearly dead by a Reaper beam). We don't KNOW you need high EMS to break free. Just because you only see the body there with high EMS doesn't mean it's not there anyway. You don't see a corpse there after all.

Saren was having doubts after Vermire. Sovereign had him implanted and the indoctrination was deepened next time you met him. Why bother, if resisting wasn't possible? Even at this late, more heavily indoctrinated stage, Saren was able to blow his brains out. We don't know what he was capable of doing between Vermire and the the implantation.

Saren and TIM are about the only examples we have of people who would be about as strong willed as Shepard, and have to deal with indoctrination. Sovereign was apparently worried that Saren could rebel, hence the implantation. Evolution, suggests TIM has been slightly indoctrinated since the Contact War. Since he's been helping through ME2, that would suggest TIM has been fighting indoctrination for a while.

Despite that, both of them never got to the stage of indoctrination where they couldn't tell reality from dreams. Shepard did. Also what happens to Shepard if he picks one of the other 2 options? Does he die? Doe he get turned into a mindless indoctrinated husk?

That means he's either moments away from death, having to fight off stronger indoctrination than even TIM and Saren had to deal with (TIM was quite husk like but even he wasn't moments away from being mindless), or both. At that stage, despite his ability to resist, he wouldn't be able to continue.

Moreso if you take the part of the IT that says the boy on Earth is fake.  They were making Shepard see visions while wide awake at a very early stage of the game.

I don't believe that. In fact I was diagreeing with dreman on his thread about this.

I know you don't agree with the kid being a vision for the very reason I listed.  I try and keep track

that's good . My interpretation involves, Shepard only seeing these things when he's been sleeping /  been knocked out

Modifié par KingZayd, 21 mai 2012 - 01:41 .

[KingZayd]

UrgentArchengel wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

UrgentArchengel wrote...

@KingZayd. Remember. Both Saren and TIM were extremely interested in Reaper Indoctrination. We know Saren was trying to see if he could stop Soverign from indoctrinating him, but maybe TIM was trying to be more proactive and extreme. Why stop them when he could just do the same to them. I could see TIM screaming at reaper images and reports, "Control me will you? Let's see how you like it!" There are lots of similarities between the two when you think of it.

I think they're both very similar at least in terms of mental strength and determination. thing iswe saw Saren at his worst. We've seen TIM vary considerably. Also, I struggle to imagine TIM screaming at reaper images like that.. he's much more calm than that. What if the cigarettes are a coping mechanism? But the Cerberus base videos do seem to suggest that he's aware of the dangers. Also, i find it interesting that he specifies his special surgery should be done without anaesthetic. Is that a precaution, to prevent him totally losing control  (whether or  not it succeeds in the end) 

Okay, maybe screaming was a bit much, but at least saying it to himself

Well, I think he's been intentionally isolating himself in that base for a reason, so I don't think he's welcoming the indoctrination. I think he's giving himself the best chance to fight it. But yeah, it does look very much like he thinks the Reapers would be susceptible to indoctrination. And it makes sense really.. assuming their minds are as organic as we are told.

And if there really is a puppeteer controlling the Reapers, I'd bet that's how. Seeing as they do appear sentient, and yet completely unware of such control.

Modifié par KingZayd, 21 mai 2012 - 01:45 .

[OH-UP-THIS!]

Aaleel wrote...

UrgentArchengel wrote...

In addition. Arrival was considered canon. Comics and novels are canon, and in Conviction, it was the reason Shepard was arrested. The only reason it isn't canon anymore is because too many people whined about there Shepard blowing up a Batarian system. Did you ever think that was the point? It's not about what you want. You (Shepard) are dropped into a situation where the ultimate evil is on our door step and the minutes are quite literally counting down. It's not Renegade, your Shepard can try to get the systems to evacuate, but of course that doesn't happen. It's Shepard's greatest failure, after failing to save Kaiden/Ashley. Your not supposed to like it. Your supposed to deal with it, cope with inadvertently killing millions. That's why your on Earth, and the whining is probably why there was no trial.

It had nothing to do with people whining and everything to do with Bioware trying to make ME3 a good jump in point for new players.  They didn't want new players starting their game and saying WTH am I on trial for, what is this all about, I never killed anyone.

Which just amplifies the inane choice to make ME3 a "good" starting point, what a bunch of ingrates, cowtowing to the junior-shooter crowd.

[Clayless]

KingZayd wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Despite that, both of them never got to the stage of indoctrination where they couldn't tell reality from dreams. Shepard did. Also what happens to Shepard if he picks one of the other 2 options? Does he die? Doe he get turned into a mindless indoctrinated husk?

That means he's either moments away from death, having to fight off stronger indoctrination than even TIM and Saren had to deal with (TIM was quite husk like but even he wasn't moments away from being mindless), or both. At that stage, despite his ability to resist, he wouldn't be able to continue.

People outside the mass effect universe also have dreams that seem real at the time. You don't have to be heavily indoctrinated for that. As to how well they slept, how do you know?

Maybe not far from death, but it's not stronger indoctrination,

How would hallucinating saving the galaxy not mean he's heavily indoctrinated? This seems to be changing from "it was a trick because he's indoctrinated" into "he's a bit indoctrinated but it was mostly a dream".

Even then he'd still be indoctrinated enough that 2 of his 3 choices end in death and 5/6 (6/7?) endings also result in his death. If he's indoctrinated to the stage where the odds are heavily stacked against him, and he's so badly injured that he's mere moments from death outside of this big indoctrination hallucination, then there's no way he'd be able to reach the conduit, deal with TIM and activate the Crucible. Resist long enough to say a sentence or 3 or shoot yourself in the head? Fine. Resist for an absurd amount of time, and deal with someone who wants to kill you despite every fibre in your body agreeing with him, whilst trying to resist it as best you can, and then go and use a weapon to destroy the most important things in your life? Hmm, that sounds pretty implausible.

Also all of this ignores the fact that Harbinger is probably still sitting there above Shepard.

[Jawsomebob]

Orange Tee wrote...

ohupthis wrote...

alec1898 wrote...

Riddle me this.

Why give Shepard the ability to destroy the reapers if he in turn breaks their hold on him?

Again as stated numerous time before.............................the destroy option is ONLY SYMBOLIC!!!

How little of an imagination, does it take to miss this?

Op isn't the brightest one either lol.

Same guy who said the shape of the Council's chamber from ME1 looking like a Reaper was definitive proof of the IT. 

Honestly we all need to stfu about this stuff and wait to see what happens.

not what I said buddy. I said that map of the consul chambers resembled the path shepard walked for the ending.  I also said that the shape of the map was a REAPER.

Modifié par Jawsomebob, 21 mai 2012 - 02:12 .

[Jawsomebob]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Jawsomebob wrote...

Explain to me this?

In 3 games Bioware never even gets into the topic of "Shepard" being indoctornated. People around him go to the reaper side but the game never even goes in a direction where it even CONSIDERS shepard even ebing partially indoctrianated.

Why is that?

Why is shepard excluded from indoctronation. He isn't. Do you really think Bioware would end the series without Shepard and why he is able to resist indoctronation being addressed.

Liara, the doctor, joker, anderson...no one ever goes "hey shepard I have been thinking. I am suprised you are unable to be indoctronated. Are you that strong willed? That's amazing!"

The ending addresses this.

Shepard has never had to justify being able to resist indoctrination because Shepard has never been under the effects of indoctrination. Shepard has never had waking-visions and halucinations, voices in the head while awake, professed empathy or understanding/admiration for Reaper ideals, or seen the resolution waver.

Shepard has never been under prolonged exposure to Reaper indoctrination either: the only opportunity was at Arrival, but for their own (plot) reasons the Reapers wanted Shepard's mind and body intact.

I loled. What are the dreams with the little boy then.

[PsyrenY]

Jawsomebob wrote...

Why is shepard excluded from indoctronation.

Willpower. Just like your Warden/Hawke can stand up to demons (and other forces) that many lesser men and women cannot. 

Even a severely wounded/battered Shepard can resist indoctrination., even after three games worth of exposure. Shepard can also resist an Ardat-Yakshi's charm, Object Rho's control etc.

Jawsomebob wrote...

I loled. What are the dreams with the little boy then.

Guilt. But by all means, keep dreaming.
The beauty about IT is that you folks don't even need to download EC. You got your ending! Congrats.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 21 mai 2012 - 02:28 .