78 réponses à ce sujet

[deathwing200]

Aesir Rising wrote...

Gandalf has bigger fish to fry other than tossing out 6d6 fireballs at every passing goblin.

He doesn't toss a fireball when swarms of orcs are invading and crushing everything in their path. I guess that's also not important.

[kingthrall]

I forget their is 1 more wizard in tolkein called Ragnar the brown, ive tried to look for so much information on him at one time in tolkien books he is the forgotten wizard. Everyone knows about sauroman the white and gandalf the grey, well this wizard was a shapeshifter turned into bears ect and lived in the wilds. Shame that i forgot if thats his name or not i should look it up.

[Trajan60]

Gandalf had his staff broken by the Witch King of Angmar and would've been pwned had it not been for Rohan's army arriving and saving his arse. He is weak.

[Wolfva2]

Trajan, that's in the movie.  In the book his staff didn't break.  The Witch King wasn't to excited to fight him either, although he was ready to.  I'm thinking Gandalf thought he had to fight Witchy because of the prophecy, and not being a man he probably could have taken the Witch king.  Who may have been a powerful sorceror at one time and have some power granted him by his master, but was still facing a man who defeated one of Morgoth's luetanants, a Balrog.

Kingthrall, Radagast wasn't the forgotten mage; he was the 3rd known one.  There were 5 sent to Middle Earth, 2 I'm not sure were ever named and sort of lost interest in everything, Radagast the Brown who became enamored of animals and ended up losing interest in everything else, though he'd help Gandalf when asked, and of course Gandalf and Sauroman.

[Aldandil]

Could Gandalf throw fireballs? It's always pretty vague when it comes to what Gandalf could and could not do, but as far as I know, no one ever throws fireballs in any of Tolkiens books. Gandalf does something with fire when they are attacked by wolves at some point, and in Bilbo he kills a goblin with a lightning, but that is about as far as it goes. To me, it seems as if magic doesn't really take on physical shape very often. Gandalf casts the most spells, and that is as far as it goes. Otherwise, magic is mostly used for crafting stuff and playing mindgames.

[Aesir Rising]

deathwing200 wrote...

Aesir Rising wrote...

Gandalf has bigger fish to fry other than tossing out 6d6 fireballs at every passing goblin.

He doesn't toss a fireball when swarms of orcs are invading and crushing everything in their path. I guess that's also not important.

True, but we also see him do things like (using the movies as reference for ease of communication):

* One-shot 4 or 5 Nazgul with an AoE spell (I'll call it "Cone of Light of Illuvatar") defending the retreating horsemen of Gondor.

* Using his Heroic Aura spell, single-handedly reverse the retreat of the Minas Tirith guardsmen and completely nullify the Fear (Sustained spell of the nazgul spec). In the books this was clearer... the Nazgul made men cower in fear by their mere presence.

* Cast Mana Armor that completely protected himself from any damage at all from the simultaneous attacks from the Fellowship DPSers (Gimli, Legolas, and Aragorn- when they thought he was Saruman).

* Tanked Saruman's fireball and without singing a single one of his quite massive eyebrows (movie, not books)

* Solo'd a Balrog of Morgoth (orange con for sure) using only one pot during the entire 48-hour boss fight.  (the pot was his vial of "Secret Fire").

* Stealth+Invis far enough into Sauron's Black Tower to listen in on the conversation/interrogation of Gollum.

* Call epic mounts like Gwaihir (greatest of the remaining Eagles) and Shadowfax, Lord of All Horses.

Try calling your epic mount in DA.

Unfortunately, he was OOM when he got caught by surprise by the King of the Nazgul.  If the Riders of Rohan hadn't shown up them to distract him, Gandalf *might* have had to reload from a save.  All things considered, he played through the entire War of the Ring having only reloaded one time during the whole campaign (Balrog fight, when he was still Gandalf the Grey).  That's hard-core.

Modifié par Aesir Rising, 10 décembre 2009 - 03:09 .

[SheffSteel]

Yeah, sure Tolkien sucked. Whatever.
I'm just glad Gandalf never had to deal with red, green, blue, black, pink and polka dot dragons.
"Dude, we have to create 60 monsters to fill out the Monster manual, but we only have ten decent ideas (and eight of those are recycled fantasy cliches)"
"No problem, just paint each creature six different colors and give it a different elemental attack, defense, or alignment. Yay, three day weekend."

Modifié par SheffSteel, 10 décembre 2009 - 03:12 .

[Trajan60]

[Bibdy]

Gandalf was an overrated electrician. Most significant thing he did was make big light-shows, all for the sake of letting the humans fight for themselves.

Shame on you, Gandalf. Take some pride on your work and drop a meteor storm on something.

[Razh2211]

He did seem to be immune to lightning damage.

[OBoile]

Wolfva2 wrote...

Remember, Gandalf wasn't actually a mage atall. He was an istari. Completely different class. But people called him a wizard because they didn't know what else to call him and being a secretive old bugger he never corrected them.

Exactly! A more accurate description of Gandalf would be an angel or lesser diety embodied in human form. He was not a "mage".

[Trajan60]

I suspect Gandalf was a homosexual. The way he smiled when the hobbits were frolicking on the bed in Rivendell made me feel uncomfortable.

[Razh2211]

Mckellen probably added some of his own to the character.

[_Rainier]

@those of you bagging on Tolkien. Please point out a better fantasy writer. For bonus points, cite Salvatore, Hickman, or some other schlock-fest-hack-for-tweens so we can all laugh at your poor taste.

[Aedan_Cousland]

Wolfva2 wrote...

Remember, Gandalf wasn't actually a mage atall. He was an istari. Completely different class. But people called him a wizard because they didn't know what else to call him and being a secretive old bugger he never corrected them.

Exactly.

Gandfalf isn't really a wizard, he just gets mistaken as one by most mortals. Gandfalf's real name was Olorin and he was one of the Maiar, divine beings that or more or less equivalent to angels. That is why he is able to return as Gandalf the White after he 'dies' fighting the Balrog. He was sent back to Middle-Earth by Eru Illuvatar, basically God in Tolkien's universe.

If you wanted to compare Gandalf to someone from the DAO universe, he would be a benovelent fade spirit.

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 10 décembre 2009 - 05:21 .

[rmp]

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

Wolfva2 wrote...

Remember, Gandalf wasn't actually a mage atall. He was an istari. Completely different class. But people called him a wizard because they didn't know what else to call him and being a secretive old bugger he never corrected them.

Exactly.

Gandfalf isn't really a wizard, he just gets mistaken as one by most mortals. Gandfalf's real name was Olorin and he was one of the Maiar, divine beings that or more or less equivalent to angels. That is why he is able to return as Gandalf the White after he 'dies' fighting the Balrog. He was sent back to Middle-Earth by Eru Illuvatar, basically God in Tolkien's universe.

If you wanted to compare Gandalf to someone from the DAO universe, he would be a benovelent fade spirit.

Does that apply to all 'wizards' or just Gandalf? What about the evil wizard in the tower (can't remember his name)?

[Bibdy]

If you wanted to compare Gandalf to someone from the DAO universe, he would be a benovelent fade spirit.

A benevolent fade spirit that needed to drop some beatdowns on some suckas...

Modifié par Bibdy, 10 décembre 2009 - 05:26 .

[Razh2211]

rmp wrote...
Does that apply to all 'wizards' or just Gandalf? What about the evil wizard in the tower (can't remember his name)?

All of the human mages are Maiar. It's Saruman. And other one is Radagast.

I wouldn't say the modern fantasy writers are better then Tolkien, but there's a lot more to draw inspiration from nowadays. There are more libraries, more writers, more stories, there's internet.
To name a few writers. R Scott Bakker, George R.R. Martin, Guy Gayvriel Kay, Tad Williams, Roger Zelazny. And each of them also has good sides and bad sides.

Modifié par Razh2211, 10 décembre 2009 - 05:35 .

[Aedan_Cousland]

rmp wrote...

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

Wolfva2 wrote...

Remember, Gandalf wasn't actually a mage atall. He was an istari. Completely different class. But people called him a wizard because they didn't know what else to call him and being a secretive old bugger he never corrected them.

Exactly.

Gandfalf isn't really a wizard, he just gets mistaken as one by most mortals. Gandfalf's real name was Olorin and he was one of the Maiar, divine beings that or more or less equivalent to angels. That is why he is able to return as Gandalf the White after he 'dies' fighting the Balrog. He was sent back to Middle-Earth by Eru Illuvatar, basically God in Tolkien's universe.

If you wanted to compare Gandalf to someone from the DAO universe, he would be a benovelent fade spirit.

Does that apply to all 'wizards' or just Gandalf? What about the evil wizard in the tower (can't remember his name)?

Pretty much all the named wizards in the books have the same origins as Gandalf. (and so aren't really wizards)

Saruman, like Gandalf, was a Maiar that had been sent to Middle-Earth to aid it's peoples against Sauron. Unlike Gandalf of course, he turned to the Dark Side.

[hellodie]

_Rainier wrote...
@those of you bagging on Tolkien. Please point out a better fantasy writer. For bonus points, cite Salvatore, Hickman, or some other schlock-fest-hack-for-tweens so we can all laugh at your poor taste.

David Eddings for his Belgariad?
I prefered the Belgariad to Lord of the Rings. But I haven't read other Tolkien books; I'm just comparing these two sagas.

Modifié par hellodie, 10 décembre 2009 - 05:37 .

[MerinTB]

Mordaedil wrote...

[MGeezer]

Xeremius wrote...

The OP seems to forget that Gandalf was playing "hide and sick" with Sauron.
Sauron knew Gandalf was with the ring bearer, and Gandalf knew that any powerful spell would reveal his presence to the "Eye"...
Just my 2 cents...

A key point.  In one of the few times Gandalf uses a major spell in the first volume of the book, he worries that "There, I have written Gandalf for all to see..."

Second, as several have pointed out, he was sent to Middle Earth to be a guide and source of hope, not the ultiomate victor or as a power in his own right.  Saruman demonstrates what happens when wizard move to being powers in their right.

Third, we are never told exactly how Gandalf's, or anyone else's magic works, what are the limits on how often it can be used and with what cost.  We do know at one point that Gandalf says that he is very weak froma previous use of magic, or asks ther to move withoutlgiht because it is too difficult for him right now. 

[Razh2211]

MGeezer wrote...
Third, we are never told exactly how Gandalf's, or anyone else's magic works, what are the limits on how often it can be used and with what cost.  We do know at one point that Gandalf says that he is very weak froma previous use of magic, or asks ther to move withoutlgiht because it is too difficult for him right now. 

He does describe in short lines how he held off Balrog before the stairs and the bridge. I remember something about Balrog spamming counterspells for each Gandalf's spell. The fact that we didn't get to see it only adds more to the mistery of magic.

[Staylost]

And, Mr. Cousland, Sauron is also a Maiar. So is the Balrog.



The reason Gandalf didn't own everyone out of hand is because it was forbidden for the need of free choice. Gandalf himself says he might be able to beat Sauron 1 v. 1. A Balrog would an elite boss, comparable to the high dragon in DA.



The other two wizards of the five are the two Blue Wizards, who became distracted from their mission and went into the East.



These are the Five sent by the Valar (sp?) to combat the reemergence of Sauron's form:

Saruman the White.

Gandalf the Grey (who the wiser of the Valar (sp?) thought should be in charge).

Radegast the Red.

And the two Blue Eastern guys.



I realize the OP was just making a joke, I laughed, but some people are taking this seriously so I decided to tell them what's what.

[MerinTB]

_Rainier wrote...

@those of you bagging on Tolkien. Please point out a better fantasy writer. For bonus points, cite Salvatore, Hickman, or some other schlock-fest-hack-for-tweens so we can all laugh at your poor taste.

What better means is a matter of opinion -

I enjoyed Dragonlance Chronicles and the Crystal Shard Trilogy worlds more than LotR.  But you know what?  I enjoyed Tales of a 4th Grade Nothing and Frog and Toad more than LotR.

What is your gauge of "better"?
Better selling?
Better ranked by critics?
Better received by fans?
or "I think it is better"?

According to Audible here are the current top selling fantasy audio books as for September of 2009 - note they don't distinguish sci-fi from fantasy.

The Time Traveler’s Wife (Unabridged) Audrey Niffenegger
The Strain: Book One of the Strain Trilogy (Unabridged)
Twilight: The Twilight Saga, Book 1 (Unabridged)
Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell (Unabridged)
New Moon: The Twilight Saga, Book 2 (Unabridged)
Dune (Unabridged)
Breaking Dawn: The Twilight Saga, Book 4 (Unabridged)
Eclipse: The Twilight Saga, Book 3 (Unabridged)
The Hobbit
Good Omens: The Nice and Accurate Prophecies of Agnes Nutter, Witch (Unabridged)

Here's a site that does statistical analysis and gives you, by their methods, the top 100 Fantasy books - http://home.austarne...ists_books.html - here's the top of that list

J R R Tolkien Lord Of the Rings Trilogy 1954
J K Rowling Harry Potter Series 1997
J R R Tolkien The Hobbit 1937
Robert Jordan Wheel of Time Series 1990
George R R Martin A Song of Ice & Fire 1996
C S Lewia The Lion, the Witch & the Wardrobe [S2] 1950
David Eddinga The Belgariad Series 1982
Terry Goodkind Wizard's First Rule [S1] 1994
Raymond E Feist Magician [S1] 1982
Philip Pullman His Dark Materials Trilogy 1995

Whom do I think is better?  Pretty much every fantasy author I have read, save maybe Jordan (whom I also didn't enjoy at all.)  And in that list I'd include authors who I didn't enjoy their stories but at least thought they were well-written, like C.S. Lewis (good writer, not so crazy on most of his work.)

For far better whom I really like and think is a high-quality author, I put forth Neil Gaiman, Anne McCaffrey and H.P. Lovecraft.

If you need it to be High Fantasy then I'd drop down to Glenn Cook, Marion Zimmer Bradley, Roger Zelazny and, yes, J.K. Rowling.

Modifié par MerinTB, 10 décembre 2009 - 06:11 .