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#26
Asante81

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Kalamity_Jones wrote...

@Asante81 - Yea, but one of the Dwarven merchants in Orzammar mentioned if dwarfs aren't near raw lyrium, they become less immune to its effects as opposed to being around it all the time (As is the case for all the Dwarves in Orzimmar.) It might not be to far fetched to say maybe their immunity to magic wanes just enough to be pulled into the fade unwillingly? The story does span over a few years though it doesn't seem it at all so even going from Ostagar to Circle tower would be maybe half a year in game time?


I'm not sure if that is supposed to be valid for individuals spending some years away of lyrium or generations of topside born dwarves...

#27
Kalamity_Jones

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Asante81 wrote...

Kalamity_Jones wrote...

@Asante81 - Yea, but one of the Dwarven merchants in Orzammar mentioned if dwarfs aren't near raw lyrium, they become less immune to its effects as opposed to being around it all the time (As is the case for all the Dwarves in Orzimmar.) It might not be to far fetched to say maybe their immunity to magic wanes just enough to be pulled into the fade unwillingly? The story does span over a few years though it doesn't seem it at all so even going from Ostagar to Circle tower would be maybe half a year in game time?


I'm not sure if that is supposed to be valid for individuals spending some years away of lyrium or generations of topside born dwarves...



Care to explain? Slightly confused on what you mean.

#28
Asante81

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I mean, I'm rather sure it took several generations to DEVELOP that immunity. So I'm rather sure it won't go away that easily.

Do you remember the Templars lyrium addiction? They'll stay like that for the rest of their lives even if they stop taking it. (Especially when they do)

Dagna the dwarven girl who wanted to study at the tower KNEW that she would NEVER be able to actually DO magic, but she was happy enough to study the lyrium effect thingy.

What I mean is, that developing such a genetic immunity takes a while and getting rid of it takes a while too.

So I mean that dwarven merchant refers to dwarves being born topside, away from large amounts of raw lyrium in the xth generation.

#29
Kalamity_Jones

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Asante81 wrote...

I mean, I'm rather sure it took several generations to DEVELOP that immunity. So I'm rather sure it won't go away that easily.
Do you remember the Templars lyrium addiction? They'll stay like that for the rest of their lives even if they stop taking it. (Especially when they do)
Dagna the dwarven girl who wanted to study at the tower KNEW that she would NEVER be able to actually DO magic, but she was happy enough to study the lyrium effect thingy.
What I mean is, that developing such a genetic immunity takes a while and getting rid of it takes a while too.
So I mean that dwarven merchant refers to dwarves being born topside, away from large amounts of raw lyrium in the xth generation.


True, but dwarves aren't exactly immune to lyrium (Confusing I know, especially since we've been slining that word alot Lol.) But, the Merchant Dwarf I've been mentioning, you know the one that got lyrium in his blood, says that even they can't be around it all the time, 2-3 times a week at most, and if substantial amounts are put into their bodies, they can die just the same. So maybe its not so much immunity but a resistance, which would seem to be easier to wear off then a immunity built up over generations, though it would still be hard to fight the Generation argument even when put like that, unless the resistance is similar to like a tan, you get it (Lyrium resistance) if you keep going in the sun (Near raw ore), but if you stop for a long period of time, you become pale again (lose the resistance). Best comparison I can give to what I think could be happening.

#30
Asante81

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I never said they're immune to lyrium. I said being around lyrium all the time makes them immune to magic ;) (Ehm being able to cast magic and not having any connection to the fade)

It's the reason why there isn't a dwarven mage origin. Well... sounds like one of the half-eaten things development wise...

#31
Kalamity_Jones

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Asante81 wrote...

I never said they're immune to lyrium. I said being around lyrium all the time makes them immune to magic ;) (Ehm being able to cast magic and not having any connection to the fade)
It's the reason why there isn't a dwarven mage origin. Well... sounds like one of the half-eaten things development wise...


Ahh, I see what you mean. Looks like we were arguing about two different things xD Probably a small lack development wise, but eh.. either way I'm rather glad they let a dwarf get pulled in, loosing your pc, or in my case, my Off-Tank would be bad.. =p

#32
Asante81

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Hehe... well, my first time there was with a mage without any healing skill... wasn't very... pleasant at times... especially certain mobs there that are rather immune to certain types of damage... I was - of course - skilled in... *cough*

#33
Kalamity_Jones

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Sound like a very fun adventure ;] First time I played, I didn't even know there was a healing skill for mages >.> (Never took the time to look, Auto-Level FTW!) So I was of course, downing Health Poultices like it was nobodies business. I found it weird that Morrigan didn't have one, (I killed Wynne for the record.) Till I seen an enemy mage use it, then I actually level'd her myself and found it.. 17 levels in the game..

#34
Original182

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Wouldn't Shale be even more of a bafflement?

#35
Kalamity_Jones

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Original182 wrote...

Wouldn't Shale be even more of a bafflement?

*head explodes* Bafflement? I think the Sloth Demon would let us out just so he didn't have to figure out how he even managed it..

#36
Freestorm Skinn

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I hate the Fade level too. The transformation skills may be nifty, but all the backtracking drove me nuts.

#37
Original182

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Pimpmyvanagon wrote...
Take Oghren with you next time you do the segment, his dialogue mentions that as an issue.


Oghren spends most of his time drunk, so we can excuse him.

Though this means that the dwarves are wrong, and who can blame them, seeing as they're cut off from the world of magic, and Dagna is the first in many years to study magic.

But I don't see how it is a contradiction. Even if dwarves are resistant to magic, can never be mages, and don't dream, it doesn't change the fact that the Fade exists. It is there whether people believe it or not. The Fade is like space, it is there whether people can normally go there or not.

So dwarves cannot travel to the Fade in their dreams like other mortals. But to me I have no problem believing that they can be forced into it, through powerful magic. Dwarves are only resistant to magic, not immune to it.

Edit: So I don't understand why dwarves cannot be in the Fade. Someone please tell me what I'm missing.

Modifié par Original182, 10 décembre 2009 - 07:49 .


#38
Mnemnosyne

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Yeah, dwarves in the fade makes sense in that while they may not be able to enter it by any natural means, being forced in is reasonably logical.

I do agree - I have a bigger issue with Shale being able to go into the Fade (and I presume that if you bring Shale there, he goes in - I haven't actually played that part with Shale). It just doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense to me.. Then again, maybe given the nature of golems in this world, it makes more sense than it seems to at first. It's not as though a golem is an inanimate object brought to life purely through the use of magic.

As for your companions seeing "better" illusions, maybe. But even Weishhaupt had that ugly brown in a lot of places, it looked very obviously like every other time you wind up in the Fade. I just think the Fade sections of the game could have been a lot better done by not sticking to a single motif for the whole thing. Surely their level and art designers had more ideas that they could have used...

#39
Draconis6666

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i think that the reason weishhaupt looks off still for you is because your character isnt buying into the illusion from the beginning. From the moment you arrive your character feels something is off and thats why it still looks off and is obvious you are in the fade.



to your companions who are buying into the illusion i assume it looks alot more real.

#40
Tripedius

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Being resistant to magic doesn't mean your soul can't be riped out. At least that's how I interpret the events in the tower. So the sloth demon can probably pull out Shale's soul too (although wasnt that in the anvil?)/

#41
Chezdon

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Asante81 wrote...

*laughs*
I don't know what peoples problems are with the ghost bridge.
Took me about a minute to test out all the panels, 2 minutes to write down which panels does what and 5mins to figure out that you need to have the number one time on the right side and one time on the left side to activate it fully...


I didn't even write anything down. Just guessed and it probably took me about 10 minutes. Same with the Shale town part with the "connect board". Just keep guessing and you'll get there eventually!

Anyhow, I didn't mind the Fade so much. At least there was some different parts to it. The Deeproads however - one long boring dungeon for me :(

#42
Varenus Luckmann

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I really, really liked the Fade the first time.

I didn't dislike it the second time.

By the third time, I hated it.

By the fourth I loathed it.

#43
Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien

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Koyasha wrote...

Yeah, dwarves in the fade makes sense in that while they may not be able to enter it by any natural means, being forced in is reasonably logical.
I do agree - I have a bigger issue with Shale being able to go into the Fade (and I presume that if you bring Shale there, he goes in - I haven't actually played that part with Shale). It just doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense to me.. Then again, maybe given the nature of golems in this world, it makes more sense than it seems to at first. It's not as though a golem is an inanimate object brought to life purely through the use of magic.
As for your companions seeing "better" illusions, maybe. But even Weishhaupt had that ugly brown in a lot of places, it looked very obviously like every other time you wind up in the Fade. I just think the Fade sections of the game could have been a lot better done by not sticking to a single motif for the whole thing. Surely their level and art designers had more ideas that they could have used...


Spoiler - When you get to where Shale is, he is kind of in the same state when you first met him. Oh and he has a great line when you get to the Inner Sanctum.

I actually don't mind the Fade, I can understand people talking about backtracking to some extent, the thing is though if you pay attention, next time you do it, it should be easier. First playthrough I didn't know you could skip nodes and had to follow the lines, one at a time. Also I was stupidly trying to do a lot of the fights with my character rather than the forms, thankfully she was a 2H warrior so the golems weren't too bad except when there was 3 of them.

Done it 3 times now and I now know one of the best routes to go through it, especially as I got the game guide the other day and that confirmed my thoughts. First things first, IGNORE Templar Nightmare completely, leaving it to be the last place to go do (well obviously before the NPC party member nightmares that are connected to it.

Weisshaupt - Raw Fade (mouse form) - Darkspawn Invasion (spirit form) - Raw Fade (slay Yevena) - Burning Tower (Burning Man form) - Mages Asunder (golem form and slay Slavren) - Darkspawn Invasion (slay Uthkiel the crusher) - Burning Tower (slay Rhagos and free party member in nightmare connected to Burning tower/Mages Asunder) - Templar Nightmare (slay Vereveel) - Free remaining 2 party members - Inner Sanctum to kill Sloth

I will say that granted the Sloth Demon is more powerful than that spirit in the Brescillian Forest, but it seems a bit nuts that a couple of the characters know it isn't real but don't bother to try doing what the PC does (Sten and Morrigan). I think it would have been better if you have them in your party that it somehow blanks out their nightmare spot and when you arrive at the Inner Sanctum they make remarks on how stupid the Sloth Demon was to think it could fool them.

Kind of interesting if we will see the proper Weisshaupt Fortress in a future game and if it will have a room similar to the one in the Fade (albeit in proper colours, rather than in 'fadevision' as I like to call it).

Whilst I don't hate any of the quests, I can understand people hating the whole jumping through hoops that you have to do to complete the "Arl of Redcliffe" quest more. Though I suppose this is partially where some of the hate for the Circle Tower lies if you are wanting to ensure you don't sacrifice Isolde or kill Connor. Because then you obviously have to do the Circle Tower either before starting Redcliffe or when you get to making the choice of how you deal with Connor.

Anyway what is there not to hate about being able to shapeshift into a golem and clobbering stuff? (Why I love controlling Shale sometimes rather than my PC, specially in the final battle when using 'Hurl Rock' to knock the Darkspawn down like ten-pins :lol: )

#44
OneBadAssMother

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For the fade segment in the mages tower, do it in this order (after the raw fade and picking up the mouse form) - (darkspawn invasion - for spirit form) - (then burning tower for burning form) - (then mages asunder - for golem form). Get all the forms first, saves you too MUCH backtracking etc.