471 réponses à ce sujet

[HiroVoid]

robertthebard wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And I'm inclined to agree with him.

I don't really agree with him that it removes player agency.

It does though, since from what we know, if the ritual is successful, then the soul of the old god goes to the baby, and nobody has to die.  If you refused the ritual, and your warden died, then Morrigan ends up OGB anyway, then why bother refusing the ritual?  It makes that choice, which was a major choice, meaningless.  After all, did somebody refuse the ritual simply because they wanted to die, or did they refuse it because of the ramifications of the OGB?  Either way, it's a slap in the face to people that didn't do it.

It also wouldn't make sense since if Morrigan cared about the Warden, she probably would have just mentioned 'Hey.  One way or another, I'm getting this baby.  I suggest you use the method that comes out with you alive in it.'

[ohnotherancor]

HiroVoid wrote...

x0hn0th3r4nc0rx wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

May I put this to rest?

If the player didn't do the Dark Ritual, or didn't get Alistair or Loghain to do it, then it wasn't done. Had Morrigan figured out some way to otherwise do it, then nobody would have died when the Archdemon was slain. If she had some way to go about getting the Archdemon's soul without resorting to the Dark Ritual as she proposed it, then why did she go through all the trouble?

We could undoubtedly come up with some complex Plan B on Morrigan's part whereby she gets the Archdemon's soul but has to do something far more terrible-- but a) that removes the player's agency in the biggest single choice of Origins and would probably be pretty lame.

(emphasis mine)

And I'm inclined to agree with him.

Edit: I apologize if I'm coming off as a bit snappish. I don't mean to. The OGB is undeniably important and I'd like to see him again. Just not in every playthrough.

Old dev posts aren't always the most reliable source of confirmed news.  Plans change, and it's obvious they're still trying to figure out exactly what to do about this issue.  While this certainly reflects how he feels about it then and maybe at the moment, they may in the end, still feel its worth enough story value to have the plot element used in one way or another.

Oh, I know. I'm just saying that I still agree with what David Gaider wrote a year ago.

[brushyourteeth]

robertthebard wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And I'm inclined to agree with him.

I don't really agree with him that it removes player agency.

It does though, since from what we know, if the ritual is successful, then the soul of the old god goes to the baby, and nobody has to die.  If you refused the ritual, and your warden died, then Morrigan ends up OGB anyway, then why bother refusing the ritual?  It makes that choice, which was a major choice, meaningless.  After all, did somebody refuse the ritual simply because they wanted to die, or did they refuse it because of the ramifications of the OGB?  Either way, it's a slap in the face to people that didn't do it.

If you refused the ritual, it meant that your Warden wanted no part in a blood magic ritual that might keep anything related to the Blight's source alive, no interest in having a baby, or no interest in strong-arming Alistair into making a baby. Or it means you just really weren't thinking about what Morrigan would do if you said no.

But Morrigan... she wasn't going to follow you around for a whole year and then be turned away with nothing to show for it. She also didn't go out of her way to make herself likeable from the get-go, which tells me that asking for your permission was actually plan B. Plan A was probably set from day one, and whatever it was got her an old god baby without your help.

Just my take on things.

[force192]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Drilling down and making this a bit more specific with respect to the OGB (since it was the example given).

How would you prefer to see it played out? My impression is as something optional for those that did it, and those that didn't do the ritual obviously don't see it. Would an OGB plot that is essential be frustrating if there was an explanation that Morrigan made it work through some other means (this would allow those that told Morrigan to pike off to still have this plot).

I have some more thoughts but I don't want to assume too much before going forward.

I would be upset if any of the dragon age games were about the OGB.  Mostly becouse my Warden did the Ultimate Sacrifice. So it would feel like a copout or something. 

[TEWR]

robertthebard wrote...

then why bother refusing the ritual?

Unless I'm misremembering player agency and character agency and the Central Intelligence Agency and any other type of agency there is, then I say....

because you don't know she'll succeed. You are effectively the character you're playing as. You refuse because you think she'll be screwed over, because that's all the Warden knows at this point. That the player knows the OGB will always exist doesn't mean that the Warden knows.

What I know is not what Xanthos Aeducan knows.

Your motivations for refusing the ritual may differ depending on the person, but the extent of the choice is really that the Warden is dead in those playthroughs, not that the OGB is nonexistent.

I see no reason to believe that Morrigan didn't have a Plan B since it's not like her -- especially when Flemeth was the one who told Morrigan to get an OGB, and Flemeth is the type to have backup plans as well -- or that Morrigan gave up because the Warden said no.

Saying no does not in any way, shape, or form mean that someone will give up on doing something, if they really want it or need it.

Hirovoid wrote...

It also wouldn't make sense since if Morrigan cared about the Warden, she probably would have just mentioned 'Hey.  One way or another, I'm getting this baby.  I suggest you use the method that comes out with you alive in it.'

I've already established why I feel that this is justifiable.

Morrigan: Well, I'm still going to get an OGB eventually.
Warden: Not if I kill you first. Then there's no OGB, ever.

I can easily see why Morrigan would've kept that information to herself, if she felt that revealing she has a Plan B would've jeopardized her life.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 juin 2012 - 04:25 .

[Dakota Strider]

Not aiming this at anyone personally. However, I think this is a situation where the NPC can prove to be more cunning than the PC. Morrigan is not evil, she has her values and own set of ethics. So, after a year of companionship, whether or not she got along with the Warden, she probably felt compelled to offer a chance to save a life, and give the Warden that option. If she is then refused, she has no reason to let the Warden know that she has other options. And since the Warden rejected her, when she attempted to save his, or another companion's life, she would definitely be the type to not give a 2nd chance to accept the DR, by revealing she had other options. You might call it spite, and Morrigan could definitely be spiteful when properly motivated.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

x0hn0th3r4nc0rx wrote...

@ Dakota Strider
@ Sacred_Fantasy

I am much more interested in seeing divergent storylines based on the DR choice instead of seeing the OGB present in all playthroughs. Not as major as The Witcher 2, but something akin to that.

Divergent storyline is what we advocated, at least at the beginning of DA 3 - lack of  resources  is why a total divergent storyline is not feasible. Even though I prefer it that way. 

x0hn0th3r4nc0rx wrote.

There might be a way to implement the OGB without making it seem like a retcon, but I'm currently not seeing it. David Gaider previously said this:

- snip -

And I'm inclined to agree with him.

Edit: I apologize if I'm coming off as a bit snappish. I don't mean to. The OGB is undeniably important and I'd like to see him again. Just not in every playthrough.

Thank you for reposting David Gaider's post. It's been more than a year I think. I can't remember exactly but my DA: Genesis storyline was written spesifically to counter David's argument. It gets lost after sometime tho and I was busy with my fellows coders at Sourceforge discussing open projects games under Public licence. So  never get to address David's post. Allow me if you will. 

David Gaider wrote...

May I put this to rest?

Sure. I'm fine with that. I'll write it myself. Actually, I already write some of it myself. 

David Gaider wrote...

If the player didn't do the Dark Ritual, or didn't get Alistair or Loghain to do it, then it wasn't done. Had Morrigan figured out some way to otherwise do it, then nobody would have died when the Archdemon was slain. If she had some way to go about getting the Archdemon's soul without resorting to the Dark Ritual as she proposed it, then why did she go through all the trouble?

Because she would need to go through all the more troubles if she didn't propose DR. And why would anyone pick a more difficult path when a more easier solution is present?

David Gaider wrote...

We could undoubtedly come up with some complex Plan B on Morrigan's part whereby she gets the Archdemon's soul but has to do something far more terrible-- but a) that removes the player's agency in the biggest single choice of Origins and would probably be pretty lame.

a) and work for those who choose DR and OGB as well. So shouldn't their decision matter as those who didn't ? 

[Dave of Canada]

If they're hypothetically going to tip-toe around to try and pretend the player had any agency at all, I'd feel far more insulted than simply saying the ritual happened. Sorry, though ME3's Rachni / Cerberus / Council / ect was insulting enough to the player, we don't need a repeat of that.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 01 juin 2012 - 06:12 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

The Rachni situation is part of what led to me asking this question.  Is part of the problem with the messaging though?  Or the implementation.  Had there been some sort of consequence for the Rachni choice in ME1, perhaps fans would have been more accepting?  As it stands, the only time you see a consequence of the Rachni decision is in ME3 (unless I'm mistaken).

In terms of messaging, if we state straight up that some choices are going to be canonized to allow for a tighter story, is that okay?  Essentially, were ME fans upset because the choice was meaningless, or was it more because they were led to believe it'd be more impactful than what was ultimately delivered.

I think the Rachni situation comes from the fact that it WASN'T canonized. It didn't assume all players saved the Rachni... it basically gave a cop out answer as to why the Rachni were still present despite deciding to kill the queen in ME1. 

In Fallout, it wasn't stated that the Vault Dweller helped the Raiders and destroyed Shady Sands, but ultimately there were survivors who formed the NCR... the choice to help Shady Sands was canonized. That's the difference. People can accept that a choice just isn't recognized. They have bigger problems when their choice is recognized in the absolute most weak fashion possible (I.e. alien machine clone). 

[fchopin]

There should not be an OGB in DA3 unless it is done in some other way and is shown but must not involve DAO, if not it would be a disaster and take Bioware in to kid stories that have no meaning.

The OGB was never meant to happen in Dragon Age games, it was just something to make the game more exciting, if they wanted this to happen all they had to do was just ask the warden to volunteer and not mention Alistair to have a back door as a backup.

No more magic stones that come from invisible realms Bioware, please make sure the skeleton of the story is created first and is solid before other missions and companions are added in the game, and make sure NPC’s are not just for insignificant trivialities.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Agreed that it seems a bit cheap.  While it'd maintain reactive cohesion with prior choices, does it actually make for a better game and a more interesting story?

For the fans it's difficult to judge this because we don't know the significance of the OGB. If he's not meant to be super-important then it's a moot point. Throw him in a few quests that only the DR people will be able to play, have him as a companion, whatever.

But if Morrigan's child is meant to be super-important somehow, a part of the Plot Grande that cannot be dispensed with, and there is an awesome story attached...in the past I've said "Go for it," but that's because I can roll with a retcon if it's handled gracefully -- that is, openly acknowledged as a retcon and not fobbed off with a pitiful explanation on how it was totally logical no matter what (apologies if this seems mean-spirited of me >.< I just find the latter method...insulting). Hell, you can even slap a suggestion on the game box that players import their DR Wardens and warn them it adheres to a certain continuity. There'll be bickering either way, sure, but no one will be able to say they were blindsided.

Alternately, kill the OGB in the continuities where he lived. This is something another BSNer blogged about not so long ago. Get him old enough, if necessary, and kill him in a dramatic scene. There are two more Blights to look forward to, or so the lore says, ergo two more chances to produce another OGB. And the next time around you can railroad the pregnancy.

Alternately again, generate another OGB whether or not the DR happened. If it was truly Flemeth's idea, does she still want one? Do the Grey Wardens know where the final archdemons rest? A deliberate trek to find one, slay it and snare its soul could be a tale unto itself, with all kinds of repercussions, not the least could be choosing between that OGB and Morrigan's son for something in the future.

In the end, a big problems with the DR is that it was touted as 'one of the most important choices in the game' or something like that, and a lot of fans have taken that to heart. But for it to be an important choice...you can't just run with one side of it. You can't devote an entire game to that one side of the choice without addressing the other, yet still expect that choice to have had any meaning.

But I have Wardens on both sides of the Ritual line, so I'm good. I can write fanfiction for whoever doesn't get a canon continuity.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

fchopin wrote...
The OGB was never meant to happen in Dragon Age games, it was just something to make the game more exciting, if they wanted this to happen all they had to do was just ask the warden to volunteer and not mention Alistair to have a back door as a backup.

Flemeth saved the warden because of pure essence of the old god.
Flemeth prepared Morrigan the Dark Ritual because of pure essence of the old god.
Flemeth send Morrigan to aid the Warden because of pure essence of the old god.
Flemeth plan it from the beginning. Otherwise she would have left the warden to die in the tower. 
Flemeth didn't care about the blight. She only craved for immortality and  the pure essence of the old god that can only be purified by the new warden's tainted blood.

OGB was meant to happen.  The child was mentioned in the epilogue and Witch Hunt. But some people purposely dismiss Witch Hunt because it's not" their canon" and somehow David Gaider get caught by it.

Ultimate Sacrifice is the one that wasn't meant to happen. That's why we get a lot of back up either from DR or through Alistair/Logain sacrifice. That' is why Awakening Import never recognize the dead warden. But I'm glad ultimate sacrifice exist because it was an epic ending.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 01 juin 2012 - 10:11 .

[fchopin]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

fchopin wrote...
The OGB was never meant to happen in Dragon Age games, it was just something to make the game more exciting, if they wanted this to happen all they had to do was just ask the warden to volunteer and not mention Alistair to have a back door as a backup.

Flemeth saved the warden because of pure essence of the old god.
Flemeth prepared Morrigan the Dark Ritual because of pure essence of the old god.
Flemeth send Morrigan to aid the Warden because of pure essence of the old god.
Flemeth plan it from the beginning. Otherwise she would have left the warden to die in the tower. 
Flemeth didn't care about the blight. She only craved for immortality and  the pure essence of the old god that can only be purified by the new warden's tainted blood.

OGB was meant to happen.  The child was mentioned in the epilogue and Witch Hunt. But some people purposely dismiss Witch Hunt because it's not" their canon" and somehow David Gaider get caught by it.

Ultimate Sacrifice is the one that wasn't meant to happen. That's why we get a lot of back up either from DR or through Alistair/Logain sacrifice. That' is why Awakening Import never recognize the dead warden. But I'm glad ultimate sacrifice exist because it was an epic ending.

Flemeth did not save the warden because of OGB she did it to for the darkspawn, she knew the warden would stop them but thought she could use her or him in other ways also.
If the warden is female how would that help with OGB? If that was the case all she had to do was save Alistair.
 
You are correct when you say that Flemeth is the person who wanted the OGB but Flemeth has other ways of getting what she wants, the warden was only one way but i am sure there are other ways.
 
You can tell Morigan to get lost any time you want and she is nor necessary for the game. You can play 99% of the game without her.
 
Have no idea what the witch hunt is as i don’t remember this.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

fchopin wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

fchopin wrote...
The OGB was never meant to happen in Dragon Age games, it was just something to make the game more exciting, if they wanted this to happen all they had to do was just ask the warden to volunteer and not mention Alistair to have a back door as a backup.

Flemeth saved the warden because of pure essence of the old god.
Flemeth prepared Morrigan the Dark Ritual because of pure essence of the old god.
Flemeth send Morrigan to aid the Warden because of pure essence of the old god.
Flemeth plan it from the beginning. Otherwise she would have left the warden to die in the tower. 
Flemeth didn't care about the blight. She only craved for immortality and  the pure essence of the old god that can only be purified by the new warden's tainted blood.

OGB was meant to happen.  The child was mentioned in the epilogue and Witch Hunt. But some people purposely dismiss Witch Hunt because it's not" their canon" and somehow David Gaider get caught by it.

Ultimate Sacrifice is the one that wasn't meant to happen. That's why we get a lot of back up either from DR or through Alistair/Logain sacrifice. That' is why Awakening Import never recognize the dead warden. But I'm glad ultimate sacrifice exist because it was an epic ending.

Flemeth did not save the warden because of OGB she did it to for the darkspawn, she knew the warden would stop them but thought she could use her or him in other ways also.

Flemeth has no use for darkspwan to be stopped. She is capable to deal massive blow on entire darkspwan army all by herself as proven when she saved Hawke..And her hut was hidden well enough. She only had the use of new warden's tainted blood for OGB. I remember Morrigan said, "I was meant to do this." when she offer DR . But Morrigan wasn't plan on it either. She was forced to offer DR because she did not want to see the Warden die. 

fchopin wrote...

If the warden is female how would that help with OGB? If that was the case all she had to do was save Alistair.

Because she had problem with Alistair earlier. Remember how Alistair being suspicious of her when they retrive the warden's treaty? It was the warden who impressed Flemeth. And thankfully she made the right decision because Alistair was broken so much he became useless until the warden awaken. Without femake warden, Alistair would not perform DR.
 

fchopin wrote...


You are correct when you say that Flemeth is the person who wanted the OGB but Flemeth has other ways of getting what she wants, the warden was only one way but i am sure there are other ways.

That other ways is precisely what we are discussing now without dismissing the choice taken by those who choose US.
 

fchopin wrote...
You can tell Morigan to get lost any time you want and she is nor necessary for the game. You can play 99% of the game without her.

 
Actually, no. Flemeth intend to possess Morrigan's to maintain her youth through the Grimoire. Morrrigan was to be a vessel for OGB and she would benefit from it when she possess Morrigan's body. Apparently she failed because Morrigan send the warden to kill her instead. It was not possible to seduced the Warden as an old hag and even if she could she would need to save Hawke first as Plan B in case Morrigan decided to turn against her. And she was right about it.

fchopin wrote...
Have no idea what the witch hunt is as i don’t remember this.

The baby was mentioned in Witch  Hunt. Please refer to page 8 or 9 of this thread - I think. I did quote my entire conersation with Morrigan in Witch Hunt.

Edit: It was on page 7 on this thread sorry. I repost it again for convience.

Morrigan: Tell me: why did you come?
Maverick Cousland: I came for answers.
Morrigan: Answers. We all want answers. We had a deal, I save your life and in return you leave me be. Why should I answer any of your questions now?
Maverick Cousland: Because you owe me the truth.
Morrigan: Owe you? It was a fair trade I should think. But we were once close, that should be worth something, perhaps
Morrigan: Ask your questions then, since you have traveled so far.
Maverick Cousland: Tell me where the child is.
Morrigan: He is safe, and beyond your reach. All you need know is that the child is an innocent. He knows nothing of the destiny that lies before him.
Maverick Cousland: That’s not good enough
Morrigan: Because the child is yours? I understand. I will not share my plan with you. If your trust is insufficient, then your anger will have to do.
Maverick Cousland: What is your plan? I want to know.
Morrigan: My plan is to leave, and prepare the child for what is to come. Such preparation requires time. And power. I must have both if I am to be successful. More than this, I dare not say. Even to you.
Maverick Cousland: Why did you betray me?
Morrigan: I did not betray you. I left, just as I said I would.
Maverick Cousland: You used me to get what you wanted!
Morrigan: I fought with you! I put my life on the line to aid your quest! And then the battle came too soon. I had no choice but to go to you, and I did not want to see you die. And here you stand, alive. So do not speak to me of betrayal.
Morrigan: ‘Tis Flemeth you should beware of, not me. Hunt her, if you hunt anyone.
Maverick Cousland: Flemeth is dead.
Morrigan: My mother has tricked her way past death and more. She is no more finished than I am.
Morrigan: I thought I knew what Flemeth planned. I thought what she craved was immortality. And yet I was wrong. So very wrong. She is no blood mage, no abomination... She is not even truly human. The ritual was but a means to an end, a herald for what is to come.
Maverick Cousland: Why? What is going to happen?
Morrigan: Change is coming to the world. Many fear change and will fight it with every fiber of their being. But sometimes change is what they need most. Sometimes change is what sets them free.
Maverick Cousland: And is that what you want? To be free?
Morrigan: What I want... is unimportant now. I cannot tarry longer. The time has come for me to go.
Maverick Cousland: Take me with you.
Morrigan You.. cannot know what you ask. T’would be better if you stayed. For you, for us both.
Maverick Cousland: I want to be with you. No matter what.
Morrigan: Then come, my love. We will face the future together

END 3: The Warden and Morrigan kiss, and leave through the portal together.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 01 juin 2012 - 10:51 .

[fchopin]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
Flemeth has no use for darkspwan to be stopped. She is capable to deal massive blow on entire darkspwan army all by herself as proven when she saved Hawke..And her hut was hidden well enough. She only had the use of new warden's tainted blood for OGB. I remember Morrigan said, "I was meant to do this." when she offer DR . But Morrigan wasn't plan on it either. She was forced to offer DR because she did not want to see the Warden die. 

Another dreamer who thinks Flemeth will wave her hands and kill all the darkspawn.
We are back to Shepard and everyone expecting Shepard to kill all the reapers with a gun.
Sorry my friend but this is not the game i played. If Bioware want the OGB in DA3 then they will have to invent another way.

[whykikyouwhy]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Flemeth has no use for darkspwan to be stopped. She is capable to deal massive blow on entire darkspwan army all by herself as proven when she saved Hawke..And her hut was hidden well enough. She only had the use of new warden's tainted blood for OGB. I remember Morrigan said, "I was meant to do this." when she offer DR . But Morrigan wasn't plan on it either. She was forced to offer DR because she did not want to see the Warden die. 

I would venture to say that dialogue in DA:O indicates that Flemeth is indeed concerned about the darkspawn.

When the Warden first encounters Flemeth, she says this in regard to the treaties:

"Take them to your Grey Wardens and tell them this Blights threat is greater than they realize." 

From this video, here are a few quotes of interest:

"It has always been the Grey Wardens duty to unite the lands against the Blight."
"Perhaps he does not see that the evil behind it is the true threat." (regarding Loghain and the Blight)

Flemeth nudges both Alistair and the Warden into gathering an "army" to battle and stop the Blight. While yes, it could be for the underlying purpose of the DR and the OGB, an OGB would mean nothing if Thedas is overrun by darkspawn, specifically darkspawn led by an Archdemon.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

fchopin wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
Flemeth has no use for darkspwan to be stopped. She is capable to deal massive blow on entire darkspwan army all by herself as proven when she saved Hawke..And her hut was hidden well enough. She only had the use of new warden's tainted blood for OGB. I remember Morrigan said, "I was meant to do this." when she offer DR . But Morrigan wasn't plan on it either. She was forced to offer DR because she did not want to see the Warden die. 

Another dreamer who thinks Flemeth will wave her hands and kill all the darkspawn.
We are back to Shepard and everyone expecting Shepard to kill all the reapers with a gun.
Sorry my friend but this is not the game i played. If Bioware want the OGB in DA3 then they will have to invent another way.

Dreamer? How can I be a dreamer when it happens at DA 2's prologue? The entire darkspwans was eliminated by a single fire breath. Flemeth is no truly a human. She is not an abomination either. Read what Morrigan's said about her through Witch Hunt's dialogue I quote for you. It's was mentoined right there. Or are you purposely ignore it? OGB is tied to DR and tied to DAO main plot. It hurts to know it;s not the game you play isn't it? Am I sure you had your own reason for hating the OGB or Morrigan, spesifically but that's NOT the point of this discussion. 

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 01 juin 2012 - 11:17 .

[fchopin]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Dreamer? How can I be a dreamer when it happens at DA 2's prologue? The entire darkspwans was eliminated by a single fire breath. Flemeth is no truly a human. She is not an abomination either. Read what Morrigan's said about her through Witch Hunt's dialogue I quote for you. It's was mentoined right there. Or are you purposely ignore it? OGB is tied to DR and tied to DAO main plot. It hurts to know it;s not the game you play isn't it? Am I sure you had your own reason for hating the OGB or Morrigan, spesifically but that's NOT the point of this discussion. 

We are talking a bunch of darkspawn in DA2 of about 10 or 15 of them that i could have taken care of if Flemeth did not interrupt and you think this is the problem that the Warden had is it?
 
The text you quoted was not in my game, what is not included in my game is not real therefore it has no substance.

[AkiKishi]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Take a look at people's reactions to the Rachni situation in ME3.

And that's a lot smaller choice than what is the big defining end choice of the game, and something that potentially our wardens gave their lives for.

The Rachni situation is part of what led to me asking this question.  Is part of the problem with the messaging though?  Or the implementation.  Had there been some sort of consequence for the Rachni choice in ME1, perhaps fans would have been more accepting?  As it stands, the only time you see a consequence of the Rachni decision is in ME3 (unless I'm mistaken).

In terms of messaging, if we state straight up that some choices are going to be canonized to allow for a tighter story, is that okay?  Essentially, were ME fans upset because the choice was meaningless, or was it more because they were led to believe it'd be more impactful than what was ultimately delivered.

The Rachni was supposed to be about ending a speices. It's what made it a heavy moment. If it was just one Rachni Queen out of a couple of 100 left around then it loses that meaning. Dooming a spieces vs taking a risk that you won't be repeating the Rachni wars.

OGB is similiar in some ways. It was not about survival,I'd rather the glorious moment sang by Bards down the ages vs the onset of the taint and long walk (JudgeDredd referenece) to the deep roads. It was about bringing something back in it's pure form a world changing moment.

Morrigan should have a had triplets.

[AkiKishi]

fchopin wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Dreamer? How can I be a dreamer when it happens at DA 2's prologue? The entire darkspwans was eliminated by a single fire breath. Flemeth is no truly a human. She is not an abomination either. Read what Morrigan's said about her through Witch Hunt's dialogue I quote for you. It's was mentoined right there. Or are you purposely ignore it? OGB is tied to DR and tied to DAO main plot. It hurts to know it;s not the game you play isn't it? Am I sure you had your own reason for hating the OGB or Morrigan, spesifically but that's NOT the point of this discussion. 

We are talking a bunch of darkspawn in DA2 of about 10 or 15 of them that i could have taken care of if Flemeth did not interrupt and you think this is the problem that the Warden had is it?
 
The text you quoted was not in my game, what is not included in my game is not real therefore it has no substance.

Those are the darkspawn the engine was capable of showing. There were a lot more of them.

[Reznore57]

The question is not really the darkspanw problem IMHO.
It's clear Flemeth send Morrigan with the warden with something else in mind to just stop the blight.
So OGB or not , the question of why would flemeth would want a purified old god soul is still here.
Besides there's the whole Morrigan go throught the Eluvian thing , i don't remember if she does it if she's childless.
Whether you did the dark ritual or not , it doesn't change Flemeth/morrigan unknown motivation.
The thing is why would they bother if it wasn't important?
If it's just to save the soul for whatever reason and the child is normal and doesn't have an important future ahead of him , then it's fine.I guess flemeth might wait for another blight.And warn the player that slaying all the archdemon might be a catastrophe.
That's when as people outside of Bioware , we're stuck , because we have to guess how is the soul even relevant to the whole thing.....
And that's when I'm worried because i'm not even 100% sure Bioware knows how much is relevant.

I mean we can look at Mass Effect and see that if the major event of a story isn't already set in stone somewhere , it can hurt a game as a whole.
Me2 in the context of the trilogy is well irrelevant , we still have no idea why a super creepy human foetus terminator reaper was important.It was just a cheap plot device to provide the player an adventure to go along.And that's kinda bad.

[fchopin]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Those are the darkspawn the engine was capable of showing. There were a lot more of them.

How many do you think Flemeth killed?

[Urzon]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Dreamer? How can I be a dreamer when it happens at DA 2's prologue? The entire darkspwans was eliminated by a single fire breath. Flemeth is no truly a human. She is not an abomination either. Read what Morrigan's said about her through Witch Hunt's dialogue I quote for you. It's was mentoined right there. Or are you purposely ignore it? OGB is tied to DR and tied to DAO main plot. It hurts to know it;s not the game you play isn't it? Am I sure you had your own reason for hating the OGB or Morrigan, spesifically but that's NOT the point of this discussion. 

She isn't afraid of the darkspawn, if anything; she is afraid of the Taint that they carry. A legion of grunts and a couple of ogres? No problem. The Taint on the other hand leads to a fast death, maddness, loss of control, and all sorts of dark unknown things.

And if the theory about her being an Old God for some sort of divine being as true... She basically becomes some sort of twisted puppet bent on the death of the world.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Flemeth has no use for darkspwan to be stopped. She is capable to deal massive blow on entire darkspwan army all by herself as proven when she saved Hawke..And her hut was hidden well enough. She only had the use of new warden's tainted blood for OGB. I remember Morrigan said, "I was meant to do this." when she offer DR . But Morrigan wasn't plan on it either. She was forced to offer DR because she did not want to see the Warden die. 

I would venture to say that dialogue in DA:O indicates that Flemeth is indeed concerned about the darkspawn.

When the Warden first encounters Flemeth, she says this in regard to the treaties:

"Take them to your Grey Wardens and tell them this Blights threat is greater than they realize." 

From this video, here are a few quotes of interest:

"It has always been the Grey Wardens duty to unite the lands against the Blight."
"Perhaps he does not see that the evil behind it is the true threat." (regarding Loghain and the Blight)

Flemeth nudges both Alistair and the Warden into gathering an "army" to battle and stop the Blight. While yes, it could be for the underlying purpose of the DR and the OGB, an OGB would mean nothing if Thedas is overrun by darkspawn, specifically darkspawn led by an Archdemon.

It is the underlying purpose of DR and OGB. The entire blight talks was only a cover up. Morrigan was sent to make sure the wardens do not fail to kill the archdemon. And obtain the old god soul. And that's why Morrigan choose to hide beyond the The Eluvian Portal. To keep Flemeth away from reaching the baby.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 01 juin 2012 - 11:39 .

[AkiKishi]

fchopin wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Those are the darkspawn the engine was capable of showing. There were a lot more of them.

How many do you think Flemeth killed?

Who can say? But if the difference in numbers of things shown is reflected by Dawn of the Seeker, a lot.

You would not bother running from the numbers shown in the game because you have already killed twice that anyway.
But there are limits to what the engine can do. It really did fail to show any sort of desperation. You never got that looking out from Helms Deep feeling and seeing nothing in the distance but a sea of orcs.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 01 juin 2012 - 11:40 .