471 réponses à ce sujet

[Sacred_Fantasy]

fchopin wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Dreamer? How can I be a dreamer when it happens at DA 2's prologue? The entire darkspwans was eliminated by a single fire breath. Flemeth is no truly a human. She is not an abomination either. Read what Morrigan's said about her through Witch Hunt's dialogue I quote for you. It's was mentoined right there. Or are you purposely ignore it? OGB is tied to DR and tied to DAO main plot. It hurts to know it;s not the game you play isn't it? Am I sure you had your own reason for hating the OGB or Morrigan, spesifically but that's NOT the point of this discussion. 

We are talking a bunch of darkspawn in DA2 of about 10 or 15 of them that i could have taken care of if Flemeth did not interrupt and you think this is the problem that the Warden had is it?
 
The text you quoted was not in my game, what is not included in my game is not real therefore it has no substance.

The text exist in my game and it's real. Therefore it has substance. So how do you account that? Not cannon? My choice doesn't matter? or both OGB and US were mistakes presented to players since both are not considered "canon"?  Awakening doesn't recognize ultimate sacrifice in every player's game therefore your game has no substance either.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 01 juin 2012 - 11:47 .

[fchopin]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

fchopin wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Dreamer? How can I be a dreamer when it happens at DA 2's prologue? The entire darkspwans was eliminated by a single fire breath. Flemeth is no truly a human. She is not an abomination either. Read what Morrigan's said about her through Witch Hunt's dialogue I quote for you. It's was mentoined right there. Or are you purposely ignore it? OGB is tied to DR and tied to DAO main plot. It hurts to know it;s not the game you play isn't it? Am I sure you had your own reason for hating the OGB or Morrigan, spesifically but that's NOT the point of this discussion. 

We are talking a bunch of darkspawn in DA2 of about 10 or 15 of them that i could have taken care of if Flemeth did not interrupt and you think this is the problem that the Warden had is it?
 
The text you quoted was not in my game, what is not included in my game is not real therefore it has no substance.

The text exist in my game and it's real. Therefore it has substance. So how do you account that? Not cannon? My choice doesn't matter? or both OGB and US were mistakes presented to players since both are not considered "canon" anyway. Awakening doesn't recognize ultimate sacrifice in every player's game therefore your game has no substance either.

If it exists in your game then it does have substance but at the same time Bioware has to make sure that both our games make sense in DA3 and not just one of us.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Urzon wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Dreamer? How can I be a dreamer when it happens at DA 2's prologue? The entire darkspwans was eliminated by a single fire breath. Flemeth is no truly a human. She is not an abomination either. Read what Morrigan's said about her through Witch Hunt's dialogue I quote for you. It's was mentoined right there. Or are you purposely ignore it? OGB is tied to DR and tied to DAO main plot. It hurts to know it;s not the game you play isn't it? Am I sure you had your own reason for hating the OGB or Morrigan, spesifically but that's NOT the point of this discussion. 

She isn't afraid of the darkspawn, if anything; she is afraid of the Taint that they carry. A legion of grunts and a couple of ogres? No problem. The Taint on the other hand leads to a fast death, maddness, loss of control, and all sorts of dark unknown things.

I agree but she is capable to hide beyond the darkspawn detection. She could easily avoid the darkspawn.

Urzon wrote...

And if the theory about her being an Old God for some sort of divine being as true... She basically becomes some sort of twisted puppet bent on the death of the world.

I don't think she is an Old God. I don't know what she is. The only thing Morrigan mentioned was her mother was no truly human. Not abomination and manage to cheat death. She can aged and require to possess her daughters to maintain her youth. That's one criteria that prove she isn't a god.

But her ability to cheat death is something no ordinary human can do. Not even Shepard can trick past death against the reaper.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

fchopin wrote...
If it exists in your game then it does have substance but at the same time Bioware has to make sure that both our games make sense in DA3 and not just one of us.

That's what are we discussing now. Brocolly, Dakota Strider, me and some other people propose a divergent storyline akin to The Withcher. Allan seem to suggest canonize OGB akin to Fallout but would like to know what players had in mind first.

[Plaintiff]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

She can aged and require to possess her daughters to maintain her youth. That's one criteria that prove she isn't a god.

Where is it stated that gods cannot age?

I seem to remember that Archdemons could move their "souls" to other darkspawn if their bodies were destroyed. The fact that Flemeth possesses the same talents makes 'Old God' a more likely possibilty, not less so.

In any case, calling something a 'god' does not make it so (or, paradoxically, calling it a god is the only criteria that makes it so). There is nothing to indicate that Old Gods are actual 'deities' as we understand the term today. All that we have actually seen is a very powerful dragon. 

Modifié par Plaintiff, 01 juin 2012 - 12:08 .

[Urzon]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

I agree but she is capable to hide beyond the darkspawn detection. She could easily avoid the darkspawn.

The darkspawn taint the land. The Taint seeps into the earth and corrupt anything it touchs, and it takes awhile for the Taint to receed and fade away. Flemeth might be able to hide from the darkspawn, but she can't hide from the land itself if the Blight continued.

I don't think she is an Old God. I don't know what she is. The only thing Morrigan mentioned was her mother was no truly human. Not abomination and manage to cheat death. She can aged and require to possess her daughters to maintain her youth. That's one criteria that prove she isn't a god.

But her ability to cheat death is something no ordinary human can do. Not even Shepard can trick past death against the reaper.

Morrigan only thought that Flemeth was going to try and possess her for immortality. She later recants that in WH.

Taken from your own post eariler...

Morrigan: I thought I knew what Flemeth planned. I thought what she craved was immortality. And yet I was wrong. So very wrong.

She might be able to cheat death, but we don't know if she actuallys ages or not. So far all we do know, she could very well be immortal. Her pendant/Horcrux was just her way to cheat death when someone, that is powerful enough, does kill her.

Modifié par Urzon, 01 juin 2012 - 12:10 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Plaintiff wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

She can aged and require to possess her daughters to maintain her youth. That's one criteria that prove she isn't a god.

Where is it stated that gods cannot age?

I seem to remember that Archdemons could move their "souls" to other darkspawn if their bodies were destroyed. The fact that Flemeth possesses the same talents makes 'Old God' a more likely possibilty, not less so.

Moving souls to other vessels is not equvalent to the process of aging. It simply mean changing host. There is no indication that Archdemon could age. We only know they had been buried underground for a very long time. 

Plaintiff wrote...

In any case, calling something a 'god' does not make it so (or, paradoxically, calling it a god is the only criteria that makes it so). There is nothing to indicate that Old Gods are actual 'deities' as we understand the term today. All that we have actually seen is a very powerful dragon. 

I was responding to Urzon's post as he was refering Flemeth as the old god. Our lack of knowledge regarding the nature of gods and deities is precisely why we shouldn't assume one. To my understanding if god can age then god can die due to nature cause. And we have no information that god can die of normal cause. The elven gods certainly don't die due to aging. The Arlathan elves themselves were known for their immortality.  

[Urzon]

Plaintiff wrote...

Where is it stated that gods cannot age?

I seem to remember that Archdemons could move their "souls" to other darkspawn if their bodies were destroyed. The fact that Flemeth possesses the same talents makes 'Old God' a more likely possibilty, not less so.

In any case, calling something a 'god' does not make it so (or, paradoxically, calling it a god is the only criteria that makes it so). There is nothing to indicate that Old Gods are actual 'deities' as we understand the term today. All that we have actually seen is a very powerful dragon. 

Not to mention, it is heavily implied that Cory from Legacy had a body snatching talent as well. Though with him, he was able to possess a Grey Warden that had a soul. Something which they Archdemons can't do. I'm guessing they both involve the use of the Taint, and use that as a connection between the two parties.

The Archdemon's soul/spirit can't compute with a mortal's soul, so they destory each other. That is why they seek out the closest darkspawn, since they are basically a blank canvas. Cory's on the other hand still has a human soul, so he can repress/destory/absorb the host's soul for his own.

Modifié par Urzon, 01 juin 2012 - 12:22 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Urzon wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

I agree but she is capable to hide beyond the darkspawn detection. She could easily avoid the darkspawn.

The darkspawn taint the land. The Taint seeps into the earth and corrupt anything it touchs, and it takes awhile for the Taint to receed and fade away. Flemeth might be able to hide from the darkspawn, but she can't hide from the land itself if the Blight continued.

Nevertheless, stopping the blight is not her primary motive. It's the archdemon or rather the old god's soul that she's pursue. Get the old god's soul's and the blight is over by itself since the old god's soul is the tainted Archdemon.  

Morrigan only thought that Flemeth was going to try and possess her for immortality. She later recants that in WH.

Taken from your own post eariler...

Morrigan: I thought I knew what Flemeth planned. I thought what she craved was immortality. And yet I was wrong. So very wrong.

That's just one part of it. 

Urzon wrote...

She might be able to cheat death, but we don't know if she actuallys ages or not. So far all we do know, she could very well be immortal. Her pendant/Horcrux was just her way to cheat death when someone, that is powerful enough, does kill her.

Yes we do know. We know some of Flemeth's history from both Morrigan and Leliana. Regardless of their version, both agreed that Flemeth was once known for her beauty who married once.

 We learn further from Morrigan,  through Black Grimoire's, that Flemeth once had other daughters but the warden never see any of them. Morrigan replied, "They're all Flemeths"  It was recorded in the Black Grimoire that Flemeth possess all her daughters' bodies to maintain her youth. And Morrigan became concern that she would be her next target. Which prompted her to ask the warden's help to retrive the Flemeth's Grimoire. 

[Dakota Strider]

(so much discussed while I slept, going to try to address a couple of the highpoints)

Flemeth and Morrigan's fear of the Darkspawn:   They put on a nice show for the sake of the Warden and Alistair to give a valid reason for Morrigan travelling with them.  If those two "witches" had shown total nonchalance about the upcoming blight, and swarms of darkspawn, the suspicions of the Wardens would have been even greater, and they would have likely refused to allow Morrigan to accompany them.  Flemeth is likely the most powerful living (?) creature in Thedas, and could probably take on the Warden and Hawke together, on their best days.  Morrigan while young, is not short of confidence, and while she may not believe she will ever be as powerful as Flemeth, she certainly believes she will be strong enough to protect herself from her "mother", in the future.   Do you really believe that Flemeth was concerned about losing her little hut in the woods?  The Taint was a concern true, but all they had to do was have Flemeth turn into a dragon, and let Morrigan hitch a ride, and fly out of range across the sea.   The Blight would be ended eventually, when Ferelden fell, and the Warden army from other countries came in to clean it up.  So, there was no urgent need for Flemeth and Morrigan to have the Warden and Alistair end the Blight, just because of the darkspawn....

Did Morrigan/Flemeth really need to mate with a Warden to get OGB?:  But what they did need, is to be near the Archdemon, when he was slain.  And they may have, or may not have needed some newly-minted Warden blood/essensce to help capture the Old God essense.  But it is very possible that they already had what they needed long before the Dark Ritual was even proposed to the Warden.  Flemeth could have collected as much New Warden blood (and other fluids) as she needed when Alistair and the Warden were unconscious and being nursed back to health after Ostagar in Flemeth's hut.  Morrigan probably had countless opportunities to collect some Warden blood after the numerous combats they shared, while travelling together.  The Warden would have never suspected.   I still believe, in agreement with many others, that the Dark Ritual was simply the easiest way to achieve OGB, not the only way.  And I also believe Morrigan may have elected not to do DR at all, but gave the Warden the choice, as a chance to save his/her life, if not out of love, then for a sense of fairness.  As I stated before Morrigan is not evil, and she probably felt she owed the Warden a chance to live (regardless of how well the PC got along with her).

Modifié par Dakota Strider, 01 juin 2012 - 02:36 .

[robertthebard]

brushyourteeth wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And I'm inclined to agree with him.

I don't really agree with him that it removes player agency.

It does though, since from what we know, if the ritual is successful, then the soul of the old god goes to the baby, and nobody has to die.  If you refused the ritual, and your warden died, then Morrigan ends up OGB anyway, then why bother refusing the ritual?  It makes that choice, which was a major choice, meaningless.  After all, did somebody refuse the ritual simply because they wanted to die, or did they refuse it because of the ramifications of the OGB?  Either way, it's a slap in the face to people that didn't do it.

If you refused the ritual, it meant that your Warden wanted no part in a blood magic ritual that might keep anything related to the Blight's source alive, no interest in having a baby, or no interest in strong-arming Alistair into making a baby. Or it means you just really weren't thinking about what Morrigan would do if you said no.

But Morrigan... she wasn't going to follow you around for a whole year and then be turned away with nothing to show for it. She also didn't go out of her way to make herself likeable from the get-go, which tells me that asking for your permission was actually plan B. Plan A was probably set from day one, and whatever it was got her an old god baby without your help.

Just my take on things.

Except that, in order for the ritual to work, the soul has to jump to the baby, not the warden, and if the warden dies, then the ritual doesn't work.  She also has to be carrying a baby that is fathered by someone that is "freshly" a Warden.  So some random Joe's kid isn't going to meet the criteria, as it is laid out in game.  There are literally thousands of posts regarding this on the DA O forums, it was hashed and rehashed and rehashed again and again for a year.  Motivations for and against were laid out, time and time again.  The only way that this can be handled is DLC.  People that elected to do the ritual, or want to use a ritual save game for a campaign can get it, those that didn't don't have to worry about it, since it won't affect their campaign in the slightest.  Even that is problematic though, depending on where that arc is going to go.

After all, if it turns out to be a Thedas shaking event, then people that opted to not do it are being castrated of their choice.  Only time will tell how this plays out, but I rather think Witch Hunt should be the end of the story.  Despite her confidence, Morrigan was in over her head, and everybody that went through the Eluvian is dead.  It's cliche, but it deals with it, and also handles one possible timeline of "what happens to the warden".

[Dakota Strider]

robertthebard wrote...

Except that, in order for the ritual to work, the soul has to jump to the baby, not the warden, and if the warden dies, then the ritual doesn't work.  She also has to be carrying a baby that is fathered by someone that is "freshly" a Warden.  So some random Joe's kid isn't going to meet the criteria, as it is laid out in game.  There are literally thousands of posts regarding this on the DA O forums, it was hashed and rehashed and rehashed again and again for a year.  Motivations for and against were laid out, time and time again.  The only way that this can be handled is DLC.  People that elected to do the ritual, or want to use a ritual save game for a campaign can get it, those that didn't don't have to worry about it, since it won't affect their campaign in the slightest.  Even that is problematic though, depending on where that arc is going to go.

After all, if it turns out to be a Thedas shaking event, then people that opted to not do it are being castrated of their choice.  Only time will tell how this plays out, but I rather think Witch Hunt should be the end of the story.  Despite her confidence, Morrigan was in over her head, and everybody that went through the Eluvian is dead.  It's cliche, but it deals with it, and also handles one possible timeline of "what happens to the warden".

You are accepting the premise, that Morrigan tells the Warden EVERYTHING there is to create the OGB.  You are also accepting the premise, that everything she tells the Warden was 100% true.  Morrigan only told what she believed was needed to get the Warden to agree to the DR.  It may have been the easiest way for her to get OGB.  The DR may not have even been necessary for her to get the OGB, and may have just been a way to save the life of the Warden.   Unless somebody gets ahold of Flemeth's grimoire and is able to decipher all of it, we only know what Flemeth and Morrigan allow us to know about it.  And anything they say, can be taken with a grain of salt, until it proves to be true, or is proven to be false.

[brushyourteeth]

robertthebard wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...
If you refused the ritual, it meant that your Warden wanted no part in a blood magic ritual that might keep anything related to the Blight's source alive, no interest in having a baby, or no interest in strong-arming Alistair into making a baby. Or it means you just really weren't thinking about what Morrigan would do if you said no.

But Morrigan... she wasn't going to follow you around for a whole year and then be turned away with nothing to show for it. She also didn't go out of her way to make herself likeable from the get-go, which tells me that asking for your permission was actually plan B. Plan A was probably set from day one, and whatever it was got her an old god baby without your help.

Just my take on things.

Except that, in order for the ritual to work, the soul has to jump to the baby, not the warden, and if the warden dies, then the ritual doesn't work.  She also has to be carrying a baby that is fathered by someone that is "freshly" a Warden.  So some random Joe's kid isn't going to meet the criteria, as it is laid out in game.  There are literally thousands of posts regarding this on the DA O forums, it was hashed and rehashed and rehashed again and again for a year.  Motivations for and against were laid out, time and time again.  The only way that this can be handled is DLC.  People that elected to do the ritual, or want to use a ritual save game for a campaign can get it, those that didn't don't have to worry about it, since it won't affect their campaign in the slightest.  Even that is problematic though, depending on where that arc is going to go.

After all, if it turns out to be a Thedas shaking event, then people that opted to not do it are being castrated of their choice.  Only time will tell how this plays out, but I rather think Witch Hunt should be the end of the story.  Despite her confidence, Morrigan was in over her head, and everybody that went through the Eluvian is dead.  It's cliche, but it deals with it, and also handles one possible timeline of "what happens to the warden".

You're making a great point, but I still don't think it's a dealbreaker. It's very easy for me to believe that Flemeth actually knows much more about Archdemons, Old Gods, Darkspawn, and even Grey Wardens than Alistair, Riordan, and the Warden do. The DA universe is full of alternate possibilities for Morrigan to obtain the OGB, and I'm positive that her first priority was never to ask nicely or even to save the Warden's life. That was probably an option she chose to put on the table as a favor to save her friend's life and maybe avoid whatever unpleasantness she'd need to go through to get the OGB another way.

The game also said that if the Archdemon isn't killed by a Grey Warden, the OG soul will just find a random darkspawn to inhabit. Maybe Morrigan took the Joining. Maybe she in fact watched from the shadows and struck just before you did. Maybe it's a whole lot more complicated than that and we just don't have enough knowledge of the lore to even imagine the explanation yet. Like I said, you make a great point but I don't think it's a dealbreaker. Morrigan is tenacious - there's no way she gave up just because you wouldn't help her. She definitely had another plan.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

If you rejected DR, Morrigan said."You do what you must as I do what I must." before she turned into a wolf and left.

[brushyourteeth]

Filament wrote...

Being tenacious is fine and all, but there comes a point where nothing can be done about it no matter how pigheaded you are about doing it. I may really want to hold back the tide with my fists, but it's not going to happen. She may not have a choice in the matter.

Well you're not a BA (essentially) half-god mage with awesome side boob and a bunch of ancient, secret knowledge at your fingertips. Probably.

It could even be as simple as the fact that if she can use blood magic for the Dark Ritual, she could also use blood magic mind domination to coerce Alistair/Loghain into sleeping with her and simply erased their memory of it afterward. She also has ways of making sure that the Warden died anyway - she may not have enjoyed it, but I don't think for a second that she's above it.

and like I've said before, she could have taken the Joining and then found some random schmuck to get her pregnant that night using a similar ritual. A child with the taint works just as well as a different child with the taint.

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
If you rejected DR, Morrigan said."You do what you must as I do what I must." before she turned into a wolf and left.

Even I'd forgotten about this! Well done.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 01 juin 2012 - 04:25 .

[robertthebard]

brushyourteeth wrote...

You're making a great point, but I still don't think it's a dealbreaker. It's very easy for me to believe that Flemeth actually knows much more about Archdemons, Old Gods, Darkspawn, and even Grey Wardens than Alistair, Riordan, and the Warden do. The DA universe is full of alternate possibilities for Morrigan to obtain the OGB, and I'm positive that her first priority was never to ask nicely or even to save the Warden's life. That was probably an option she chose to put on the table as a favor to save her friend's life and maybe avoid whatever unpleasantness she'd need to go through to get the OGB another way.

The game also said that if the Archdemon isn't killed by a Grey Warden, the OG soul will just find a random darkspawn to inhabit. Maybe Morrigan took the Joining. Maybe she in fact watched from the shadows and struck just before you did. Maybe it's a whole lot more complicated than that and we just don't have enough knowledge of the lore to even imagine the explanation yet. Like I said, you make a great point but I don't think it's a dealbreaker. Morrigan is tenacious - there's no way she gave up just because you wouldn't help her. She definitely had another plan.

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

If you rejected DR, Morrigan said."You do what you must as I do what I must." before she turned into a wolf and left.

In neither of these scenarios does the Warden striking the killing blow not die.  We can weave intricate "what if" scenarios, but that doesn't change that, as presented in game, there is no way, since the Warden dies, no matter which one it is, that she got the soul, or impregnated by a fWarden, if that was the case.  I could, if I wished to completely disregard the player's choice, write a very convincing way for it to happen, but it takes player choice all the way out of the game.  I could write the game in such a way that you had to play a mWarden, that you had to romance Morrigan, therefore providing a way for her to already be pregnant, but I still can't write a way for her to get the ritual when it was denied.  I can't write a way for the Warden to get the soul, and therefore die from killing the Archdemon, and still get both outcomes.  This is what the OGB demands happen, in some games.  It demands both outcomes.  Doing so completely removes the choice, thus railroading everyone into the same choices.

It's easy to write a book that way, but with interactive media, if an event doesn't happen, it doesn't happen, and coming back later and saying "nana na na na, it really happened anyway" is a slap in the face to offering a choice where there should have been none.

[robertthebard]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Urzon wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Dreamer? How can I be a dreamer when it happens at DA 2's prologue? The entire darkspwans was eliminated by a single fire breath. Flemeth is no truly a human. She is not an abomination either. Read what Morrigan's said about her through Witch Hunt's dialogue I quote for you. It's was mentoined right there. Or are you purposely ignore it? OGB is tied to DR and tied to DAO main plot. It hurts to know it;s not the game you play isn't it? Am I sure you had your own reason for hating the OGB or Morrigan, spesifically but that's NOT the point of this discussion. 

She isn't afraid of the darkspawn, if anything; she is afraid of the Taint that they carry. A legion of grunts and a couple of ogres? No problem. The Taint on the other hand leads to a fast death, maddness, loss of control, and all sorts of dark unknown things.

I agree but she is capable to hide beyond the darkspawn detection. She could easily avoid the darkspawn.

Urzon wrote...

And if the theory about her being an Old God for some sort of divine being as true... She basically becomes some sort of twisted puppet bent on the death of the world.

I don't think she is an Old God. I don't know what she is. The only thing Morrigan mentioned was her mother was no truly human. Not abomination and manage to cheat death. She can aged and require to possess her daughters to maintain her youth. That's one criteria that prove she isn't a god.

But her ability to cheat death is something no ordinary human can do. Not even Shepard can trick past death against the reaper.

Actually, the topic is why DA3 needs Hawke as the MC.  So derailing a derail isn't really all that significant.

[brushyourteeth]

robertthebard wrote...
It's easy to write a book that way, but with interactive media, if an event doesn't happen, it doesn't happen, and coming back later and saying "nana na na na, it really happened anyway" is a slap in the face to offering a choice where there should have been none.

I still disagree. Your Warden had the choice to take his/her chances with the Archdemon rather than be party to a blood magic ritual involving someone you may not actually want to have sex with that produces a child with the soul of something that's dangerous and potentially unholy. That was your choice. Morrigan, however, was not going to let that stop her (in my opinion).

[Dakota Strider]

robertthebard wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

You're making a great point, but I still don't think it's a dealbreaker. It's very easy for me to believe that Flemeth actually knows much more about Archdemons, Old Gods, Darkspawn, and even Grey Wardens than Alistair, Riordan, and the Warden do. The DA universe is full of alternate possibilities for Morrigan to obtain the OGB, and I'm positive that her first priority was never to ask nicely or even to save the Warden's life. That was probably an option she chose to put on the table as a favor to save her friend's life and maybe avoid whatever unpleasantness she'd need to go through to get the OGB another way.

The game also said that if the Archdemon isn't killed by a Grey Warden, the OG soul will just find a random darkspawn to inhabit. Maybe Morrigan took the Joining. Maybe she in fact watched from the shadows and struck just before you did. Maybe it's a whole lot more complicated than that and we just don't have enough knowledge of the lore to even imagine the explanation yet. Like I said, you make a great point but I don't think it's a dealbreaker. Morrigan is tenacious - there's no way she gave up just because you wouldn't help her. She definitely had another plan.

In neither of these scenarios does the Warden striking the killing blow not die.  We can weave intricate "what if" scenarios, but that doesn't change that, as presented in game, there is no way, since the Warden dies, no matter which one it is, that she got the soul, or impregnated by a fWarden, if that was the case.  I could, if I wished to completely disregard the player's choice, write a very convincing way for it to happen, but it takes player choice all the way out of the game.  I could write the game in such a way that you had to play a mWarden, that you had to romance Morrigan, therefore providing a way for her to already be pregnant, but I still can't write a way for her to get the ritual when it was denied.  I can't write a way for the Warden to get the soul, and therefore die from killing the Archdemon, and still get both outcomes.  This is what the OGB demands happen, in some games.  It demands both outcomes.  Doing so completely removes the choice, thus railroading everyone into the same choices.

It's easy to write a book that way, but with interactive media, if an event doesn't happen, it doesn't happen, and coming back later and saying "nana na na na, it really happened anyway" is a slap in the face to offering a choice where there should have been none.

And you keep clinging to your belief that what you learned from Riarden, Alistair, and what Flemeth and Morrigan chose to tell you, is all you need to know regarding the subject.  Is it so hard for you to grasp that Morrigan might have held out information on your Warden, and basically hoodwinked him/her?

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

If you rejected DR, Morrigan said."You do what you must as I do what I must." before she turned into a wolf and left.

Great find.  I find it hard to believe that Morrigan feels that her "do what I must" means she gives up on the primary reason she has tagged along with the Warden for a year, and goes and cries in a corner somewhere.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

robertthebard wrote...
Actually, the topic is why DA3 needs Hawke as the MC.  So derailing a derail isn't really all that significant.

Lol. I was saying excatly the same thing as you do back then at page 6 or 7 of this thread. I suggest you read back the previous pages of this thread before you jump into any conclusion. Newcomerd always bothers me when they jump into discussion without any slightest idea what has been discussing.

robertthebard wrote...

In neither of these scenarios does the Warden striking the killing blow not die. We can weave intricate "what if" scenarios, but that doesn't change that, as presented in game, there is no way, since the Warden dies, no matter which one it is, that she got the soul, or impregnated by a fWarden, if that was the case. I could, if I wished to completely disregard the player's choice, write a very convincing way for it to happen, but it takes player choice all the way out of the game. I could write the game in such a way that you had to play a mWarden, that you had to romance Morrigan, therefore providing a way for her to already be pregnant, but I still can't write a way for her to get the ritual when it was denied. I can't write a way for the Warden to get the soul, and therefore die from killing the Archdemon, and still get both outcomes. This is what the OGB demands happen, in some games. It demands both outcomes. Doing so completely removes the choice, thus railroading everyone into the same choices.

It's easy to write a book that way, but with interactive media, if an event doesn't happen, it doesn't happen, and coming back later and saying "nana na na na, it really happened anyway" is a slap in the face to offering a choice where there should have been none.

Read back few pages earlier and get back to me after that. Let me know what you think about my silly idea. 

[Reznore57]

It depends a "retcon " to player decision if it's very well done with some explanation that goes beyond the "a Wizard did it " can be alright IMHO.Not if every decision is "rectonned " it just sucks.
The fact that npc have their own agenda and do things beyond your back that goes against what you've done is fair game.
We are the hero , not god in the story we do not have power over everything.Doesn't mean that we should feel powerless neither.It's a balance , something must be up for the player to shape and others don't.

[Salaya]

I disagree. Hawke was part of the problem. I sincerely hope her role in future titles is reduced or simply vanished.

I prefer the idea of creating a new character with each game; If possible, with race and personal history selection. I like Mass Effect, but I never felt attached to a character like Shepard (fixed ones) in western RPG. I vastly prefer characters like the warden or D&D fresh, clear ones.