471 réponses à ce sujet

[brushyourteeth]

compared to "surprise - Anders is alive!" and "surprise - Leliana is alive!" Morrigan and the OGB should not be a shocker to anyone. It actually fits my expectations of her character and her limitations (or lack thereof).

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Dakota Strider wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

If you rejected DR, Morrigan said."You do what you must as I do what I must." before she turned into a wolf and left.

Great find.  I find it hard to believe that Morrigan feels that her "do what I must" means she gives up on the primary reason she has tagged along with the Warden for a year, and goes and cries in a corner somewhere.

Yup. She said that to my US Amber Cousland which forced me to play my self inserted avatar Maverick Cousland to romance Morrigan and dig out as much info as I can. I badly want to know what her plan was. Playing as self-inserted character help me a lot to view things on personal level compare to Roleplaying a created character. I gain far better immersion playing as self-inserted avatar compared to created character like Amber Cousland.  

[robertthebard]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
Actually, the topic is why DA3 needs Hawke as the MC.  So derailing a derail isn't really all that significant.

Lol. I was saying excatly the same thing as you do back then at page 6 or 7 of this thread. I suggest you read back the previous pages of this thread before you jump into any conclusion. Newcomerd always bothers me when they jump into discussion without any slightest idea what has been discussing.

robertthebard wrote...

In neither of these scenarios does the Warden striking the killing blow not die. We can weave intricate "what if" scenarios, but that doesn't change that, as presented in game, there is no way, since the Warden dies, no matter which one it is, that she got the soul, or impregnated by a fWarden, if that was the case. I could, if I wished to completely disregard the player's choice, write a very convincing way for it to happen, but it takes player choice all the way out of the game. I could write the game in such a way that you had to play a mWarden, that you had to romance Morrigan, therefore providing a way for her to already be pregnant, but I still can't write a way for her to get the ritual when it was denied. I can't write a way for the Warden to get the soul, and therefore die from killing the Archdemon, and still get both outcomes. This is what the OGB demands happen, in some games. It demands both outcomes. Doing so completely removes the choice, thus railroading everyone into the same choices.

It's easy to write a book that way, but with interactive media, if an event doesn't happen, it doesn't happen, and coming back later and saying "nana na na na, it really happened anyway" is a slap in the face to offering a choice where there should have been none.

Read back few pages earlier and get back to me after that. Let me know what you think about my silly idea. 

Search this thread for posts by me, not a newcomer.  Just because there was nothing of merit to comment on doesn't mean I wasn't reading.  There is no option to make OGB a main plot theme that does not trivialize the decision to do the DR or not.

[Dave of Canada]

Headcanoning why your own potential canon works above everybody else doesn't stop it from being headcanon.

[Dakota Strider]

robertthebard wrote... There is no option to make OGB a main plot theme that does not trivialize the decision to do the DR or not.

The Ultimate Sacrifice decision is only trivialized if you are under the premise that you know with absolute certainty that the only way Morrigan could have made the OGB was with a Warden, with your permission.  Common sense and what little documentation available shows that is highly unlikely.   Its not like the first time a player is forced to make a decision for his/her character in a game, without having all the facts first.

Modifié par Dakota Strider, 01 juin 2012 - 05:05 .

[Dave of Canada]

If the OG soul wasn't obliterated by the Warden becoming it's "host", then the Warden would've lived.

[Dakota Strider]

Dave of Canada wrote...

If the OG soul wasn't obliterated by the Warden becoming it's "host", then the Warden would've lived.

And your proof of this is.... ?

[Dave of Canada]

The entire reasoning behind the Warden dying? The Warden doesn't stumble and hit his head, he absorbs the Old God into himself and thus dies. It's the entire point of the Dark Ritual, to preserve the soul and spare the Warden from the fate of absorbing it.

If the soul doesn't go into the Warden and goes to chill with not-pregnant Morrigan for some reason, the Warden wouldn't die because his/her death condition is not met. No soul destruction = Warden lives.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 01 juin 2012 - 05:10 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

robertthebard wrote...
Search this thread for posts by me, not a newcomer.  Just because there was nothing of merit to comment on doesn't mean I wasn't reading.  There is no option to make OGB a main plot theme that does not trivialize the decision to do the DR or not.

It's not my fault that you skip at some point of discussion and miss the content.

I have kindly asked to read back few pages earlier so you could keep up with the discussion.

Here is the intial question done by Allan 
Schumacher

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Oh! The Old God Baby! Please, BW. Please, I beg you...address this. I know not not everyobne did the dark ritual...but that's never stopped you before.

This is something that I have been thinking about the past few days actually.

I remember back in the day (before I was on this rocking chair telling kids to get off my lawn) when game imports were usually nothing more than stat/inventory imports, if they exist before. We typically had to accept that some decisions from the sequels were just canon.

People clearly like the idea of reactivity continuing into the next game, but how do we balance telling an interesting story that we want to create for the player, and creating choice?

The Old God Child is probably the biggest point, because it's one that those that did the ritual are definitely super interested in, but if we force a game plot to utilize it, then those that didn't choose it may feel marginalized and jaded that the choice wasn't reflected. At the same time though, I think fans would have been MORE upset if the dark ritual was forced. I suppose we could have had Morrigan forcibly do it with someone else, but that ship has sailed.

Discuss (and be gentle! >.>). I'll grab the popcorn. I may split this into a separate thread though if people want to run with it.

 

Here was my response regarding the subject and Allan replied to it.

Allan Schumacher wrote...

 Sacred_Fantasy wrote... 

Guys, This thread is about continuing Hawke as the main protagonist. But we're discussing the warden, Morrigan and OGB instead. Isn't that irrelevant?

I find threads evolve, but this tangent is created entirely by a question I posed (which I thought of while in this thread).

Would you rather I create a separate thread to discuss this topic further?

There was no objection to discuss, The Warden, Morrigan and OGB as we find that most good ideas were already being forwarded in this thread.

So would you mind do your homework next time or pay attention closely the direction of a thread and stop making me to spoon feed you?

So now you get the idea about the topic in hand, what do think of all Allan's questions? 

[Dakota Strider]

@daveofcanada
But just because the Warden dies, does not mean the spirit is actually destroyed. When the tainted OG spirit moves to a darkspawn, it dominates and takes over the creature. However, since Wardens are a "hybrid" the tainted OG is unable to take over, The internal struggle has always killed the Warden in the half dozen times it has happened in the past. But who is to say the spirit is destroyed completely? Perhaps merging with the Warden, the spirit has been purified from the taint in some way, and unable to move to another darkspawn. The DR may be to keep this act from killing the Warden, but there is something else Morrigan can do to capture the "purified" spirit after it merges with the Warden and kills him.

Both of our views are conjecture, since there is no documentation. However one view is based on Morrigan telling him all there was to know about the DR. The other view is based on how Morrigan behaved.

Modifié par Dakota Strider, 01 juin 2012 - 05:19 .

[AkiKishi]

Dakota Strider wrote...

@daveofcanada
But just because the Warden dies, does not mean the spirit is actually destroyed. When the tainted OG spirit moves to a darkspawn, it dominates and takes over the creature. However, since Wardens are a "hybrid" the tainted OG is unable to take over, The internal struggle has always killed the Warden in the half dozen times it has happened in the past. But who is to say the spirit is destroyed completely? Perhaps merging with the Warden, the spirit has been purified from the taint in some way, and unable to move to another darkspawn. The DR may be to keep this act from killing the Warden, but there is something else Morrigan can do to capture the "purified" spirit after it merges with the Warden and kills him.

Both of our views are conjecture, since there is no documentation. However one view is based on Morrigan telling him all there was to know about the DR. The other view is based on how Morrigan behaved.

It's horribly "Shepardy"

[robertthebard]

Dakota Strider wrote...

robertthebard wrote... There is no option to make OGB a main plot theme that does not trivialize the decision to do the DR or not.

The Ultimate Sacrifice decision is only trivialized if you are under the premise that you know with absolute certainty that the only way Morrigan could have made the OGB was with a Warden, with your permission.  Common sense and what little documentation available shows that is highly unlikely.   Its not like the first time a player is forced to make a decision for his/her character in a game, without having all the facts first.

Not that I'm a dedicated follower of US, but show me something that says "I can do this with or without you, but you may as well have some fun/make Alistair squirm".  My position is, considering to DR or not to DR was a major decision in the game, taking it away isn't going to be done w/out kicking and screaming from somebody.  For evidence of this, look at all the "ideas" being thrown around about it here.  It basically boils down to "Riordan didn't know what he was talking about, Wardens don't have to die to stop the Blight".  Which, with the DR, they don't. 

Nobody has postulated anything that states unequivocably that he is wrong, and in fact, quoting Morrigan's dialog about the event indicates that he's not wrong.  The Archdemon's soul must either enter the Warden, thus killing him/her, or Morrigan's baby, thus granting the OGB.  If the Warden dies, there can be no OGB.  It never says the soul will play hopscotch around the field until it finds somebody that doesn't die.  This is, however, the equivalent to what's being presented, so far, as options to destroying part of the games lore, to wit:  The reason Grey Wardens are needed to end the blight is because the soul of the Archdemon jumps into the closest tainted body when it dies.  If that happens to be a darkspawn, then it is reborn, but, since a Warden is tainted, and is closest, striking the killing blow puts you really close, and already has a soul, it destroys them both.

Now, what part of that are we going to alter, considering this isn't the first, but the fifth blight?  So now, because somebody is obssessed with OGB, we're going to have to rewrite all of history to this point to accomodate it?  If we assume the soul plays hopscotch around the field looking for someone that doesn't die, how were any blights ever stopped?  No matter what, some people are going to be unhappy, and with the weight given the decision, I can only imagine who it's going to be.  Doesn't Witch Hunt have a not so positive ending for the OGB too?

[Dakota Strider]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Dakota Strider wrote...

@daveofcanada
But just because the Warden dies, does not mean the spirit is actually destroyed. When the tainted OG spirit moves to a darkspawn, it dominates and takes over the creature. However, since Wardens are a "hybrid" the tainted OG is unable to take over, The internal struggle has always killed the Warden in the half dozen times it has happened in the past. But who is to say the spirit is destroyed completely? Perhaps merging with the Warden, the spirit has been purified from the taint in some way, and unable to move to another darkspawn. The DR may be to keep this act from killing the Warden, but there is something else Morrigan can do to capture the "purified" spirit after it merges with the Warden and kills him.

Both of our views are conjecture, since there is no documentation. However one view is based on Morrigan telling him all there was to know about the DR. The other view is based on how Morrigan behaved.

It's horribly "Shepardy"

And here I thought people liked "Shepardy" .  (7 million sales for ME franchise). 

It would be better than only making a small side quest with the OGB for those that chose that chose the DR, which is barely giving it lip service.   I can make a justification for a divergent path, for those that chose Ulitimate Sacrifice, that still includes the OGB.  But noone has yet come up with a way to justify a divergent path for those that chose the Dark Ritual, and then find out there is no OGB in future games.

Modifié par Dakota Strider, 01 juin 2012 - 06:41 .

[Brockololly]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
Drilling down and making this a bit more specific with respect to the OGB (since it was the example given).

How would you prefer to see it played out? My impression is as something optional for those that did it, and those that didn't do the ritual obviously don't see it.

Basically, whoever did the Ritual would get some kind of exclusive content based on the fact that they did the Ritual, whether that involves the OGB or the fact that the Warden survived the killing blow against the Archdemon. And whoever chose to decline the Ritual would also get exclusive content of some kind that recognizes in some way that they declined the Ritual, and that possibly this maybe made Morrigan resort to some other ritual to try to achieve her goals, whatever those may be. Not necessarily that she ended up getting the OGB by somebody else, but that she didn't just give up after being turned down.

Allan Schumacher wrote...
Would an OGB plot that is essential be frustrating if there was an explanation that Morrigan made it work through some other means (this would allow those that told Morrigan to pike off to still have this plot).

If I turned down the Ritual, I wouldn't expect Morrigan to have stopped dead in her tracks with whatever she was planning, but based on what the game presented to the player, I would not expect her to have gotten an OGB either. So having Morrigan have gotten an OGB regardless of the player choice would be frustrating. People that turned her down should not have access to the OGB plot content whatever that may be. Just as much as people that accepted the Ritual should not have access to whatever non-OGB plot content there is.

But thats the key: the decision to accept/decline the Ritual should result in new, exclusive, consequential content for both choices. So maybe, if Morrigan was turned down, she is forced to try some other ritual that approximates whatever she was trying to achieve with the OGB. But whatever it is, its NOT just a stand in for the OGB; it would be a decidely different plot/content based on the choice of the player to turn down the OGB Ritual.

Allan Schumacher wrote...
The Rachni situation is part of what led to me
asking this question.  Is part of the problem with the messaging
though?  Or the implementation.  Had there been some sort of consequence
for the Rachni choice in ME1, perhaps fans would have been more
accepting?  As it stands, the only time you see a consequence of the
Rachni decision is in ME3 (unless I'm mistaken).

Again, with the Dark Ritual , its difficult to have any meaningful consequence to that choice within Origins, just based on the premise of the Ritual- its something positioned at the very end of the game, which presumably causes Morrigan to give birth to a baby thats going to need time to grow up a little and also allows the Warden to survive the killing blow against the Archdemon. In terms of consequences, unless there was some fast forward, future sequence as a epilogue years later at the end of Origins, I don't see how you could have any meaningful consequence within the game. Its a choice thats presented to the player in game as something that would naturally have long term consequences, both in the creation of the OGB and the survival of the Hero of Ferelden.

So for the Ritual, positioning it at the end of the game makes it seem like the only way to have a meaningful consequence to it is in another expansion pack or game that takes place far enough after that choice to show consequences, whether thats playing as your Warden again or seeing the consequences of creating/not creating the OGB.

Allan Schumacher wrote...
In terms of  messaging, if we state straight up that some choices are going to be  canonized to allow for a tighter story, is that okay?  Essentially, were ME fans upset because the choice was meaningless, or was it more  because they were led to believe it'd be more impactful than what was  ultimately delivered.

For ME3, I think its a matter of both. The choice you make in ME1 is meaningless since you effectively see the same content regarding the Rachni no matter what. And like the Ritual, the choice regarding the Rachni queen in ME1 is framed as something having long term consequences, further perptuated in ME2 with the Rachni messenger. So your expectations are high by the time ME3 rolls around, only to realize you're not getting any significantly unique content based on your ME1 choice and the decision in ME1 to spare/kill the Rachni amounts to a line of dialogue and a drop in the puddle of war assets.

So with the Ritual, its made in game to feel like a huge decision, whether you accept or decline it. If its just going to be canonized or otherwise handwaved  in such a way to marginalize the player's choice in DA:O, why offer that choice in the first place? If its not possible to deliver meaningful consequences to player choices between games/expansion packs via the import or even within the game, then I'd say don't toy with the player's expectations in the first place and don't offer that illusory choice if there isn't any actionable way to provide a meaningful consequence.

Allan Schumacher wrote...
 Would anyone here have preferred it if  the Dark Ritual MUST be performed, or do people prefer to experience a   game like DAO where they can make choices within that game, but they're  okay with the fact that depending on the story that choice may not be  reflected in future games?  Should we only allow choice if we intend to  ensure that it can't be overridden in future games?

I want the choices within the games- thats half of what makes RPGs fun to play, debating the pros and cons of making a certain choice and what the possible ramifications could be. I would be ok with the consequences of a given choice not being shown in a future game, but not necessarily canonized. For instance, we don't see the results of the Ritual in DA2 because the story of DA2 has no reason to go into that. Thats fine. The DA world seems large enough that certain stories don't need to try and cram in as many callbacks to past gamesas possible.

So again, I'd prefer it if choices were still offered and there was some way the consequences could be seen by the player character who made those choices, especially with something like the DR. Ideally wrapped up within the same game, or wrapped up in a subsequent expansion pack if there is no hope of playing as that PC in the future, even if temporarily.

Allan Schumacher wrote...
An advantage of making OGB canon would be that it would afford writing the possibility to greatly expand upon it if they wish.  If it's an option that cannot be  canonized, it effectively marginalizes it to a side story at best unless
we decide that Morrigan were able to still capture the Old God's  essence through some other means.  It sounds like, at least for some  people, this is actually worse because while they can accept "okay this  is just canon, I've dealt with this before" it turns into "Well,  Morrigan didn't really need the Warden or the Archdemon to perform this, so the fact that you didn't do it has no effect on anything."  This  seems to be Wulfram's perspective which I think is just as valid of one.

The problem with handwaving Morrigan as getting the OGB no matter what is that it no only marginalizes those who didn't choose the Ritual, it marginalizes those who chose the Ritual. It makes the choice in DA:O feel like it was a totally fake choice anyway, since the same thing happens no matter what.

I guess it would come down to how its explained that the OGB becomes canon. No matter what, I think you'd need some kind of unique, exclusive content to explain that instead of just tossing it in the face of the player via exposition that Morrigan got the OGB no matter what. Thats the problem people that killed Leliana had with DA2- she shows up no matter what and you don't get any explanation. Maybe I'd be able to buy it if there was something present to expain how she's alive, but you get nothing. And then that gets to the issue of having a new PC interact with old NPCs and experience consequences from past PCs, since its a convenient excuse to not have to explain things to the new PC since they weren't around making the choice, even though the player was.

Allan Schumacher wrote...
It wasn't an issue for fans of Baldur's Gate and I'm sure many would love a BioWare KOTOR 3 even if it took canon Revan and Exile.  I don't think  this is actually the case.

The difference in BG1 to BG2 import was that while it canonizes things, it was done at the very beginning of the game and established that canonization from the start. If things like the DR were canonized in DA, I don't see the point of the import feature anymore, since at least in BG you were importing your player character. And the import from BG2 to Throne of Bhaal kept things like your romance active. I'm skeptical of how people would react to a canon Revan and Exile in a KOTOR3. Just look at how some people were ticked off at how Revan and the Exile were handled in TOR and the Revan novel...the end to KOTOR is very personal.

And besides, nowadays, you have games like The Witcher 2 or Alpha Protocol that give choices and meaningful consequences with unique content. The bar has been raised and keeping something like the import implies that the choices the player made in the past will be relevent in the future.


As I've said before, ideally, the whole OGB plot would have been wrapped up with the Warden player character in some expansion pack to Origins. Then lingering ramifications of it could have been sprinkled in future games as necessary. As it is now, I don't know how it would be best to deal with the OGB considering its been stated we won't be in control of the Warden, and for a good number of people that did the RItual, their Warden is tightly associated with Morrigan and probably with her in the Eluvian. That presents a whole other set of issues, where just handwaving away or writing off that Warden is just as cheap feeling as marginalizing the OGB would be, since the Ritual is not just about the OGB but having the Warden survive.  

So if the OGB were to be canonized, I could live with a decent explanation, but it would have to be a plausible explanation and not just more typical wishy washy cryptic Flemeth/Morrigan BS. And there would have to be some kind of unique content for either side, regardless.

Modifié par Brockololly, 01 juin 2012 - 06:46 .

[robertthebard]

Dakota Strider wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Dakota Strider wrote...

@daveofcanada
But just because the Warden dies, does not mean the spirit is actually destroyed. When the tainted OG spirit moves to a darkspawn, it dominates and takes over the creature. However, since Wardens are a "hybrid" the tainted OG is unable to take over, The internal struggle has always killed the Warden in the half dozen times it has happened in the past. But who is to say the spirit is destroyed completely? Perhaps merging with the Warden, the spirit has been purified from the taint in some way, and unable to move to another darkspawn. The DR may be to keep this act from killing the Warden, but there is something else Morrigan can do to capture the "purified" spirit after it merges with the Warden and kills him.

Both of our views are conjecture, since there is no documentation. However one view is based on Morrigan telling him all there was to know about the DR. The other view is based on how Morrigan behaved.

It's horribly "Shepardy"

And here I thought people liked "Shepardy" .  (7 million sales for ME franchise). 

It would be better than only making a small side quest with the OGB for those that chose that chose the DR, which is barely giving it lip service.   I can make a justification for a divergent path, for those that chose Ulitimate Sacrifice, that still includes the OGB.  But noone has yet come up with a way to justify a divergent path for those that chose the Dark Ritual, and then find out there is no OGB in future games.

That's a potential for 2.33 million sales, give or take, figuring on how many people bought all three games.  I have purchased none of them.

What part of history are you going to rewrite, and I'm not talking about Origins.  I'm talking about the 4 previous blights that have been ended in the same manner, presumably, as any of the nonDR games.  There are 4 possible outcomes, and in 3 of those, a Warden dies.  Rewriting history to trivialize the death of a Warden is trivializing 3 out of 4 endings to accomodate one.  As I said, I have games with and w/out DR.  The problem is, if there's an option to import saves, some of my more memorable games won't be included, if the OGB is decided to be Canon.  I mean, after being spit on by Alistair on my fDalish Warden, it gave me great pleasure to order him to kill the demon, knowing he was going to die doing it.  I understand that some people are enthralled with the idea of seeing Morrigan, and playing footsie under the table, and cooing at a baby that may be an abomination much along the lines of Anders...

[ohnotherancor]

@ Brockololly

That post is amazing and sums up everything I feel in a much more articulate way than I could write. Bravo.

[AkiKishi]

Dakota Strider wrote...

And here I thought people liked "Shepardy" .  (7 million sales for ME franchise). 

It would be better than only making a small side quest with the OGB for those that chose that chose the DR, which is barely giving it lip service.   I can make a justification for a divergent path, for those that chose Ulitimate Sacrifice, that still includes the OGB.  But noone has yet come up with a way to justify a divergent path for those that chose the Dark Ritual, and then find out there is no OGB in future games.

It's fine in it's place. Second one is my favourite despite doing the very thing I called Shepardy. Mass Effect until the third part was larger than life comic book stuff. Dragon Age as always been more gritty. Maybe they are going to a Mass Effect in reverse...

[bEVEsthda]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

First, I think it's important to qualify that I don't feel the ME3 endings are as bleak as many others do.  This was before the DLC was planned too.  Without getting into spoilers, I do see the endings as bittersweet where, at the very least MY Shepard, accomplished what he wanted to do.  From that standpoint, I don't see the endings to ME3 as being significantly more "downer" than PST's or Fallouts (games which I would disagree have "good endings."  This is probably mostly a semantic argument though).

With video games, though, it is very different. The amount of effort I put in, working to crafting the story the way I most wanted it, working at accomplishing goals as successfully (or even purposefully NON-successful) as I saw fit, trying my best to keep my character alive... these are all things that don't just make you feel emotion if things don't end well, but they devalue all the effort you put in. Reading a book or watching a movie takes minimal effort, just attention. A video game's neccesity of requiring the player to actually work makes the fact that if a game offers no satisfying conclusion, only loss and heartache no matter how hard the player tries, then it becomes a painful and wasteful experience.

I'll agree that a video game is more engaging for the reasons you describe.  Though I guess we'll just have to disagree for whether or not it's a painful and wasteful experience.  Different strokes for different folks.  IMO it's only wasteful if, when I reach the end of my playing, I considered the time spent in it to be irrelevant and uninteresting.

This is not only taking advantage of being one of the first video game series ever to take so many choices over the course of games and import them in, but it would also be a financial incentive, as sales of the first two games could have been through the roof if the "happily ever after" ending could only be achieved through a concerted effort over the course of all three games. People who just bought ME 3, or started on ME2 would then be very compelled to go out and buy the first games in the trilogy. Not that everything should tie back to money, but the current ending is not successful from a story-telling point of view, as it lead to only confusion, misinterpretation and dissatisfaction, but it also failed fto capitalize on this from a money-making point of view. Multiple endings, one of which would be a happliy-ever-after ending, could have done both.

It's hard to predict what effect it would have had on sales, and at this point it's something we'll just never know.

I saw this discussion some days ago. But then decided not to respond (still maybe a good idea), but for some unclear reason I have now changed my mind. Maybe I'm tired and not thinking so well. Anyway:

I think it's a great mistake to assume that player reaction against ME3 is because of "unhappy end". Certainly, I consider unhappy ends as dangerous. Especially if there is no alternative. (I also think it can be kinda 'cheap' melodrama to just kill off chars, too easy emotional manipulation, and tragedy is kinda overrated). But all that is really utterly irrelevant, compared to how bad  the ME3 ending is. It's just astoundingly poor story quality. I's crap. Horse manure.

I think the main reason I decided to respond anyway, now, is that I'd be very scared if Bioware would, today, be unable to recognize how awful (awful as in utter rubbish) the ME3 ending is. I understand that corporate PR rules pretty much outlaw any admission of this fact, by routine. But in this case, I think actions like the dlc which will "clarify", and statements of "artistic", are worrisome. Surely, Bioware cannot have fallen so far? Surely it's just normal PR? But is it really wise PR? (I don't think so.)

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 01 juin 2012 - 07:35 .

[Mark of the Dragon]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Take a look at people's reactions to the Rachni situation in ME3.

And that's a lot smaller choice than what is the big defining end choice of the game, and something that potentially our wardens gave their lives for.

The Rachni situation is part of what led to me asking this question.  Is part of the problem with the messaging though?  Or the implementation.  Had there been some sort of consequence for the Rachni choice in ME1, perhaps fans would have been more accepting?  As it stands, the only time you see a consequence of the Rachni decision is in ME3 (unless I'm mistaken).

In terms of messaging, if we state straight up that some choices are going to be canonized to allow for a tighter story, is that okay?  Essentially, were ME fans upset because the choice was meaningless, or was it more because they were led to believe it'd be more impactful than what was ultimately delivered.

No you cant just canonize descisions without taking away from our personal descision. I always  thought the best way to address this issue is for an expanded side quest type idea. For example look at mass effect 2. A lot of the side quests were connected in some way shape or form. Once you finished certain mission you would find something that told you were to go next and your journal would be updated with a new side mission. Thats how the dark ritual should be handled. As an string of side missions that the character can find if you did the ritual. This would mean you would be able to give it the attention and epic scale it deserves. It would also allow you to build something big and epic feeling out of it.
Of course you could always make a three four hour DLC that people can buy and download for if they made that descision.

Also I am totally agaisnt how the rachni was handled in ME3. Jsut making a convenient excuse for how Morrigan found a way to have the god baby would undermine our decisions and the player would feel like there choice didnt matter.

[AkiKishi]

Mark of the Dragon wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Take a look at people's reactions to the Rachni situation in ME3.

And that's a lot smaller choice than what is the big defining end choice of the game, and something that potentially our wardens gave their lives for.

The Rachni situation is part of what led to me asking this question.  Is part of the problem with the messaging though?  Or the implementation.  Had there been some sort of consequence for the Rachni choice in ME1, perhaps fans would have been more accepting?  As it stands, the only time you see a consequence of the Rachni decision is in ME3 (unless I'm mistaken).

In terms of messaging, if we state straight up that some choices are going to be canonized to allow for a tighter story, is that okay?  Essentially, were ME fans upset because the choice was meaningless, or was it more because they were led to believe it'd be more impactful than what was ultimately delivered.

No you cant just canonize descisions without taking away from our personal descision. I always  thought the best way to address this issue is for an expanded side quest type idea. For example look at mass effect 2. A lot of the side quests were connected in some way shape or form. Once you finished certain mission you would find something that told you were to go next and your journal would be updated with a new side mission. Thats how the dark ritual should be handled. As an string of side missions that the character can find if you did the ritual. This would mean you would be able to give it the attention and epic scale it deserves. It would also allow you to build something big and epic feeling out of it.
Of course you could always make a three four hour DLC that people can buy and download for if they made that descision.

Also I am totally agaisnt how the rachni was handled in ME3. Jsut making a convenient excuse for how Morrigan found a way to have the god baby would undermine our decisions and the player would feel like there choice didnt matter.

Bioware don't like to do that (see Rachni Queen). You also don't want to cut people out of content just because they are new to the series (especally as it gets longer). That's simply unfair since they pay the same price for the game.
Stick a comic book in the prologue and that goes away.

The problem with the OBG(YN) is that the longer you keep it unresolved the bigger it will get and the more anticlimactic the eventual resolution is likely to be.

[AngryFrozenWater]

I think if people are afraid that exclusive branches mean that they miss out on content, then it is time to play a linear game. If our decisions should "shape the world" then consequences are what one could expect. Also, fans like me play the game more than once and try different choices in the hope they result in different content or twists in the story. And that has to do with promises like that. If those consequences don't materialize then do not be surprised that people are pissed.

[robertthebard]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Bioware don't like to do that (see Rachni Queen). You also don't want to cut people out of content just because they are new to the series (especally as it gets longer). That's simply unfair since they pay the same price for the game.
Stick a comic book in the prologue and that goes away.

The problem with the OBG(YN) is that the longer you keep it unresolved the bigger it will get and the more anticlimactic the eventual resolution is likely to be.

I agree(gasp), and that's why I think it should have been dealt with in Witch Hunt, and gotten the Warden/Morrigan/OGB out of the big picture.  This was a hot topic back in the day, with the to DR or not to DR discussions running for pages at a time.  It was almost as popular as the Hate/Love Alistair threads.  That's my take on it, anyway.

[Brockololly]

BobSmith101 wrote...
You also don't want to cut people out of content just because they are new to the series (especally as it gets longer). That's simply unfair since they pay the same price for the game.
Stick a comic book in the prologue and that goes away.

The solution to not cutting new players out of content is, like you said, to have the ability to set some past choices at the beginning of the game. Or, simply provide unique content for each variation of the big choices so that you're not necessarily missing anything by going with the OGB or non OGB choice, you'd just be experiencing different content, but content nevertheless.

BobSmith101 wrote...
The problem with the OBG(YN) is that the longer you keep it unresolved the bigger it will get and the more anticlimactic the eventual resolution is likely to be.

Completely agreed, and its further complicated by not having the player character who made the choice be the one who the player is controlling as they experience any consequences from their decision. Sure, it could be interesting to see the secondary effects of the Old God Baby on the world at large, but in terms of creating an emotionally engaging story around Morrigan, would it be more interesting to have a story involving Morrigan where the OGB exists and is the son of the Warden who is in a romance with Morrigan and went into the Eluvian with her, or a Warden that ended up stabbing Morrigan in the gut having to face her again, or a Warden that shunned Morrigan's ritual forcing her to do a possibly even more risky and dangerous ritual versus meeting Morrigan as some new guy player character thats never met her before and has very little established connection to her or the actions and choices made by the Warden player character?

Thats whats most frustrating about this to me, is that the Ritual is an interesting cliffhanger and jumping off point for a new story with the Warden (Hero of Ferelden or Orlesian) and yet its seemingly going to resolved by somebody else or we're left with BioWare handwaving away the Warden via keeping them offscreen or forcing them in with a cameo where they're no longer under the player's control, but BioWare, where you kill off any player agency established via Origins.

Its like A Song of Ice and Fire and the end of A Game of Thrones. You have a great ending where Dany has the dragons born, setting up potentially awesome future events, same with Robb becoming King in the North. But you see the consequences to those events in the very next books, even if you have the constant shifts in points of view, making the world itself really the main character, not unlike what we've been told how Thedas is the main character in DA. Which is all the more reason I really think they should use more shifting points of view within games, especially as they build up player characters like Hawke or the Warden. This would let them still use those characters as necessary so you don't end up having to resolve lingering plots with new player characters only tangentially related and involved in them.  And it would emphasize the fact that the world doesn't revolve around any one character.

[robertthebard]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I think if people are afraid that exclusive branches mean that they miss out on content, then it is time to play a linear game. If our decisions should "shape the world" then consequences are what one could expect. Also, fans like me play the game more than once and try different choices in the hope they result in different content or twists in the story. And that has to do with promises like that. If those consequences don't materialize then do not be surprised that people are pissed.

This kind of works both ways though, everybody expects that their decision should be honored, and in the case of the OGB, they can't be.  It either happened, or it didn't.  Trying to cater both ways may almost entail writing 2 completely different games, with the same title, depending on how Thedas shaking OGB really is.

Since it wasn't dealt with in Witch Hunt, the next best possible solution, in my eyes, would be something similar to Leliana's Song, the DLC.  Introducing:  Into the Eluvian, starring Morrigan.  With the option to load Witch Hunt saves into the DLC.  Give it closure to the OGB, if there is one, and the Warden, if he goes into the Eluvian.  This effectively closes the issues with it, and with the Warden, if he's in at all.  This can be done as a stand alone module, and can include an option for generating a Warden that did the DR and went into the Eluvian with Morrigan, so that it's available as DLC for whomever wants to buy it.