471 réponses à ce sujet

[Jerrybnsn]

I think this whole Chantry/Mage Circle conflict as a main plot isn't a good way to go. A lot complained about how boring Act 3 was. I hope they reduce the conflict to a side plot in DAIII and bring back the Darkspawn threat (with original looking darkspawn and more variety of them from Origins). It just a shame that all the characters from Origins continue on with the Dragon Age world yet you have to interact with them like you don't even know them as a new protagonist.

[AkiKishi]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

I think this whole Chantry/Mage Circle conflict as a main plot isn't a good way to go. A lot complained about how boring Act 3 was. I hope they reduce the conflict to a side plot in DAIII and bring back the Darkspawn threat (with original looking darkspawn and more variety of them from Origins). It just a shame that all the characters from Origins continue on with the Dragon Age world yet you have to interact with them like you don't even know them as a new protagonist.

It would make for an ok prologue. If I was wrting it it would go something like this. Templars/Mages have been fighting, the combination of magical energies is weakening the boundry between reality and the fade. Demons are able to come through without hosts. PC gets caught up in one of thse battles, either on the Mage or Templar side or just by being in the wrong place at the wrong time.Character ends up getting possesed (which gives you the variety) and through this finds out that this battle is taking place in the fade too and will have some pretty terrible consequences if the balance is not restored. All that magical energy is being sucked up by something big and nasty that you will probably have to kill in the end.

It's basically replacing darkspawn with demons for some variety.

[robertthebard]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...

I think this whole Chantry/Mage Circle conflict as a main plot isn't a good way to go. A lot complained about how boring Act 3 was. I hope they reduce the conflict to a side plot in DAIII and bring back the Darkspawn threat (with original looking darkspawn and more variety of them from Origins). It just a shame that all the characters from Origins continue on with the Dragon Age world yet you have to interact with them like you don't even know them as a new protagonist.

It would make for an ok prologue. If I was wrting it it would go something like this. Templars/Mages have been fighting, the combination of magical energies is weakening the boundry between reality and the fade. Demons are able to come through without hosts. PC gets caught up in one of thse battles, either on the Mage or Templar side or just by being in the wrong place at the wrong time.Character ends up getting possesed (which gives you the variety) and through this finds out that this battle is taking place in the fade too and will have some pretty terrible consequences if the balance is not restored. All that magical energy is being sucked up by something big and nasty that you will probably have to kill in the end.

It's basically replacing darkspawn with demons for some variety.

It's been done:  Baldur's Gate II Throne of Bhaal, and in NWN's 2.  No, thank you very much.  It wasn't variety, it was tedium, especially in the NWN's incarnation, and I don't think I'd play it.  If I knew beforehand what was going to happen, I don't think I'd buy it.  Especially with anything like the similar mechanic, where you lose control of your character to whatever it is possessing you.

[Dave of Canada]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

I think this whole Chantry/Mage Circle conflict as a main plot isn't a good way to go. A lot complained about how boring Act 3 was.

I thought most complaints were about how short and rushed it felt, rather than boring.

[AkiKishi]

robertthebard wrote...
It's been done:  Baldur's Gate II Throne of Bhaal, and in NWN's 2.  No, thank you very much.  It wasn't variety, it was tedium, especially in the NWN's incarnation, and I don't think I'd play it.  If I knew beforehand what was going to happen, I don't think I'd buy it.  Especially with anything like the similar mechanic, where you lose control of your character to whatever it is possessing you.

Everything has been done. The devil is in the detail. It's a fun twist to play the demon rather than the shell.

[robertthebard]

BobSmith101 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
It's been done:  Baldur's Gate II Throne of Bhaal, and in NWN's 2.  No, thank you very much.  It wasn't variety, it was tedium, especially in the NWN's incarnation, and I don't think I'd play it.  If I knew beforehand what was going to happen, I don't think I'd buy it.  Especially with anything like the similar mechanic, where you lose control of your character to whatever it is possessing you.

Everything has been done. The devil is in the detail. It's a fun twist to play the demon rather than the shell.

The details are, it sucked.  It took more time trying to figure out how to control it than it would have taken to just play the game.

[Melca36]

Sabariel wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

I'm tired of Hawke. Time for a new protagonist. Preferably a dwarven protagonist.....

Considering 80-85% played humans in Origins that will never happen. Word is only 5% played dwarves.

That's not really important. What is important is how many people would not play the game if it only had a dwarven protagonist. The other problem with the stats is that human is the default which means anyone choosing default will also choose human.

I don't mind either way as long as the protaganist is interesting.

I didn't mean "dwarf only". I meant "bring back race choice pls."

And 102.63% of statistics are made up

Actually its not made up...if you do a search the developers said it themselves.

[AkiKishi]

Melca36 wrote...

Actually its not made up...if you do a search the developers said it themselves.

While it's not made up. It's not clear either in what it tells you.

1. Most people prefer humans? 
2. Most people take the default option? (ME stats back this)

Since I play a human every day I go out of my way to play anything unusual.

[HiroVoid]

I imagine it uses achievements to see who completed which origin. Of course, if we use statistics, didn't a lot of people quit at Ostagar anyway, and more than 50% usually don't complete the average long game anyway.

[BubbleDncr]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
To be fair though, Vampire Bloodlines, Fallout 1 and PST all had the option of getting good endings as well. 

I think a "downer" ending is acceptable... if it is one of many. If Mass Effect 3 really did have the 16 truly different endings (as opposed to the 1 with different colors), then I think many people would be totally fine with a downer ending as a possibility, if it was accompanied by a truly great ending, if the character so decided and/or worked for it. The problem many gamers have at this point is that it seems more and more games are embracing the "downer" ending as the only ending option, which is truly unsatisfying.

First, I think it's important to qualify that I don't feel the ME3 endings are as bleak as many others do.  This was before the DLC was planned too.  Without getting into spoilers, I do see the endings as bittersweet where, at the very least MY Shepard, accomplished what he wanted to do.  From that standpoint, I don't see the endings to ME3 as being significantly more "downer" than PST's or Fallouts (games which I would disagree have "good endings."  This is probably mostly a semantic argument though).

I'm gonna compare the ME3 ending to the Dragon Age:Origins ending to show why I find the DA:O ending to be vastly superior, and that all future Dragon AGe games should have a similar outlook on its ending.

In ME3 - 100% paragon Shepard is presented 3 options. There isn't really a clear "this is what a noble, good person should pick" choice amongst the three. And whatever you pick, you get the same cutscene, just different colors. And then, the only thing the player gets shown about what their choice meant for the future actually creates a giant plothole for that scene to exist.

In DA:O - if you've been playing as a "paragon" Warden - its obvious that you would sacrifice yourself, rather than create a possibly demonic god baby or have someone else die instead. Though I don't think a single person who played a "noble" Warden wasn't sorely tempted to suddenly become seflish - in fact, many probably did. And all those who end up sacrificing themselves go into battle with a heavy heart, knowing their doom awaits them. And in the end, you get a completely different ending cutscene from if you chose to do OGB it up or talk someone else into dying. And then you get a bunch of epilogue cards telling you what every choice you made in the game's impact on the world was.

Both endings are "downer" endings, but one makes you feel like your death served a purpose. And in games where "choice" is a major selling point, people expect to feel like the things they do matter.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Hmm..Then ME 3's ending is similar to DA 2's ending except there was no color differences. It had only one ending or two if you count a tiny little variant, but still in the end it was all about, "gone, just like the warden."

I never understand after the backlash of DA 2's endings, BioWare still play this kind of card.

[BubbleDncr]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Hmm..Then ME 3's ending is similar to DA 2's ending except there was no color differences. It had only one ending or two if you count a tiny little variant, but still in the end it was all about, "gone, just like the warden."

I never understand after the backlash of DA 2's endings, BioWare still play this kind of card.

You're right - though at the time, I didn't have a problem with DA2's endings. In fact, I still don't. I think I was too busy geeking out at a certain rogue's appearence and a mention of my Warden.

I guess since to me, DA2's ending was an obvious cliffhanger - so it got me filled with enough excitement and curiousity about where things would go in DA3, that I didn't really care. But with Origins, you didn't know if there would be a sequel, and ME3 is obviously the end, so I need a satisfying ending there.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

BubbleDncr wrote...
In DA:O - if you've been playing as a "paragon" Warden - its obvious that you would sacrifice yourself, rather than create a possibly demonic god baby

The god baby isn't demonic. He's the pure old god Urthemiel, the god of beauty. When Morrigan said, "Something must be preserved." She was talking about the purified old god and not the Archdemon. Urthemiel became corrupted by the darkspawn and the warden's tainted blood through dark ritual cleanse those corruption. Therefore, the old god baby is as innoncent as any other normal baby. My Maverick Cousland trusted Morrigan with the baby because he knew Morrigan well enough. Despite being known for her lust for power, Morrigan will not turn her back on my warden as proven at Which Hunt when she awaited my warden when she could have just turn away and and enter the portal. The son she carried with her is still my warden's son, the man she dumped and yet, she cannot resist him anymore when she finally agree to let him enter the eluvian mirror.     

[gabrien]

I totally agree with the OP. At first I was reluctant to play DA 2 because I wasn't playing the warden. After I played it I came to really like Hawke, liking Hawke better than my warden (even though I had to be human). And after the ending of DA2 I really want to see Hawke smack down on some mages and templars whilst discovering some kind of greater threat. Not some new pc.

I would like DA3 to be more like DAO. I think DOA and DA2 feel like almost completely different games. DAO was amazingly well done, so much story, so many choices, so many places to go.

Aside from my slow grown love for Hawke, In my opinion, the only awesome things about DA2 are the combat, the companion banter, Varric and isabella. Sure, I liked the storyline but it wasn't awesome. I dunno.. After DAO I had higher expectations for storyline and maps and such.

[Thor Rand Al]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

I'm tired of Hawke. Time for a new protagonist. Preferably a dwarven protagonist.....

Considering 80-85% played humans in Origins that will never happen. Word is only 5% played dwarves.

That's not really important. What is important is how many people would not play the game if it only had a dwarven protagonist. The other problem with the stats is that human is the default which means anyone choosing default will also choose human.

I don't mind either way as long as the protaganist is interesting.

I would have to say that might be more true, I know if any kind of game came out n it was either elf or dwarf only protag I would not be interested.  I'm not trying to be racist or whatever, I just have no interest what so ever on playing either one of those origins.  I myself prefer playing human, now I'll romance an elf, don't think I would a dwarf, height issues lol.  But ya when picking a game to buy n play there has to be an option to play a human protag in it for me to even be interested.

[HiroVoid]

Thor Rand Al wrote...
I would have to say that might be more true, I know if any kind of game came out n it was either elf or dwarf only protag I would not be interested.  I'm not trying to be racist or whatever, I just have no interest what so ever on playing either one of those origins.

So what you're saying is its kind of like how you wouldn't want to play as a black protagonist?  IS THAT IT!? 

[BubbleDncr]

Begemotka wrote...

Regarding the bolded part of your post,our opinions differ somewhat.

I do not think Morrigan`s ritual is a selfish choice.
You cannot make an informed decision without proper intel.

The Warden had to make that call,while lacking any solid proof that Morrigan is evil. Polarizing?Yes. Evil ? Not so sure. Or Flemeth,for that matter. Most of what we know about her is hearsay,legends and all the exaggeration that comes with those. You never learn the true contents of the Grimoire,and we hardly know anything about the true nature of the Old Gods.

Throughout the course of the game,you only get clues about the "witches",and you get to play Cluedo without ever finding out "whodunnit." I think this is genius storytelling. I love it when I get to assemble my puzzle.

To this day I do not know whether in the OGB, Thedas will have its greatest ally,or most terrible foe.
But this is just my two eurocents,and YMMV,of course.     

Regardless of what each of us thinks of the ritual - DAO`s kind of endings are what I would like to see more often.

I suppose the reason I feel that the OGB is seflish, is because, as you said, you don't know if it will be Thedas' greatest ally or most terrible foe. And while your Wardens' motivations most likely differ from mine - I've had 2 Wardens go the OGB route - my cannon warden because she didn't want either her or Alistair (her LI) to die, and my male warden because he both didn't want to die and because he though it'd be cool to father a god. So, My Wardens were willing to take the risk that they could be creating Thedas' most terrible foe, for seflish reasons. Whereas a selfless Warden would sacrifice themselves, because they know that it will defeat the blight, and not risk creating something that could be potentially destroy the world later on or something. 

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

The god baby isn't demonic. He's the pure old god Urthemiel,
the god of beauty. When Morrigan said, "Something must be preserved."
She was talking about the purified old god and not the Archdemon.
Urthemiel became corrupted by the darkspawn and the warden's tainted
blood through dark ritual cleanse those corruption. Therefore, the old
god baby is as innoncent as any other normal baby. My Maverick Cousland
trusted Morrigan with the baby because he knew Morrigan well enough.
Despite being known for her lust for power, Morrigan will not turn her
back on my warden as proven at Which Hunt when she awaited my warden
when she could have just turn away and and enter the portal. The son she
carried with her is still my warden's son, the man she dumped and yet,
she cannot resist him anymore when she finally agree to let him enter
the eluvian mirror.     

But at the time of the ritual, you have no proof that what Morrigan's telling you is true - she could be lying, but also since this ritual hasn't been done before, how does she really know how things will turn out? While your Cousland may have trusted Morrigan, a lot of other Wardens may not. And just because the baby is born pure doesn't mean it won't get corrupted during life. You have no idea how Morrigan will raise that child - if she lusts for power, there's no reason to think she won't use that child to gain power. And while Morrigan may never turn her back on your Warden - she turned her back on mine. So while, in theory, your Warden got to live happily ever after off in the Eluvian with Morrigan, and he can make sure the baby grows up to be good, 1) it doesn't work out that way for a lot of other people's Wardens, and 2) At the time of the ritual, she told you that you would never see it again, so you wouldn't have been able to predict that she'd let you back into her and your baby's life.

And even if you believe Morrigan plans on raising the baby to be good, there's no reason to think Flemeth (or anyone else in the world) won't defeat Morrigan, take the baby, and raise it how they see fit.

But I guess I'll revise my opinion - the good, noble Warden would either A) do the Ultimate Sacrifice, or do the Dark Ritual, because they believe without any doubt that the OGB will be a good thing for the world. But since I've never been convinced of that, it's always felt seflish to me to take that kind of risk just so you don't have to die.

Modifié par BubbleDncr, 29 mai 2012 - 09:38 .

[Wulfram]

Being a "pure" Tevinter Old God isn't something i find reassuring. Old Tevinter wasn't a very nice place, by most accounts.

[Sabariel]

Melca36 wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

I'm tired of Hawke. Time for a new protagonist. Preferably a dwarven protagonist.....

Considering 80-85% played humans in Origins that will never happen. Word is only 5% played dwarves.

That's not really important. What is important is how many people would not play the game if it only had a dwarven protagonist. The other problem with the stats is that human is the default which means anyone choosing default will also choose human.

I don't mind either way as long as the protaganist is interesting.

I didn't mean "dwarf only". I meant "bring back race choice pls."

And 102.63% of statistics are made up

Actually its not made up...if you do a search the developers said it themselves.

Yeah, I know they did.  And they could have made it up because "102.63% of statistics are made up". That was the terrible joke I made.


Anyway, they've also said something like 80% of people played as M!Shepard during ME1 and F!Shepard still made it into ME2.


I really, really, really, really, really don't want to be stuck playing as a boringbutt human in future games. Variety pls.

[rapscallioness]

I liked both Hawke and the Warden. Very much so.

Neither one needs to be put on a pedestal, though. Neither one was all that spectacular. I think all this nostalgic reverence for the Warden has more to do with the game itself. It was DA:O that made the Warden seem like...all that.

The length of the game. The grueling major quests that your Warden went through. DA2 didn't have those kind of quests. That kind of length.

I loved my Warden. I thought she was great. But I loved my Hawke, too. They were two different stories. I think the character of Hawke is blamed too much for things that are problems with the entirety of the game itself.

BW gave Hawke No control over anything in the game. Nothing could be changed, or even influenced by Hawke. From the Qunari to Anders. Even if you freed mages, or sent them back to the Circle....they still came back to bite you in the azz. I was surprised at BW for this. But that wasn't Hawke's fault. That was BW.

However, I wouldn't mind moving on to a new MC. I do think they should have some kind of race selection and a nice background story to the new MC. But....I...don't think that's gonna happen.

Even if they have race selection--by some miracle--I don't know if they're gonna invest in the Origins story of that character. Which would be too bad.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

BubbleDncr wrote...
But at the time of the ritual, you have no proof that what Morrigan's telling you is true - she could be lying, but also since this ritual hasn't been done before, how does she really know how things will turn out?

Neither do you.

BubbleDncr wrote...

While your Cousland may have trusted Morrigan, a lot of other Wardens may not. And just because the baby is born pure doesn't mean it won't get corrupted during life. You have no idea how Morrigan will raise that child - if she lusts for power, there's no reason to think she won't use that child to gain power. And while Morrigan may never turn her back on your Warden - she turned her back on mine. So while, in theory, your Warden got to live happily ever after off in the Eluvian with Morrigan, and he can make sure the baby grows up to be good,

 

You cannot judge somethng that isn't happening yet or blame others for things they haven't done. A person commited a crime when he/she acts upon it. A person who never commited a crime cannot be treated as a criminal just because you speculate him to be a criminal. If that logic appy in real world, a lot of innocent people will end up in jail or prosecuted without justice.

BubbleDncr wrote...


1) it doesn't work out that way for a lot of other people's Wardens,

That because a lot of people never give themselves the chance to work things out with Morrigan. They either make her leave or completely alienated her just because she doesn't approve a lot of player's action -  which is understandable.

BubbleDncr wrote...



and 2) At the time of the ritual, she told you that you would never see it again, so you wouldn't have been able to predict that she'd let you back into her and your baby's life.

She also told me that love is for the weak and dumped my character because of that. And yet, she became jealous when I kissed Bella or Leliana. Or concern about my Warden's life with this words, "I will not sit idlely and watch you die." or continued to watch my warden with the ring even after DAO -  "I remained because I sensed your approach. You kept the ring"..  or  she said "I assume you know what this is. I have gone to great lengths to find and activate this portal. Give me reason and I use it, and you will not be able to follow." and yet she allow the warden to follow her through the portal.


A lot of things that Morrigan said cannot be taken literally when it comes to the warden. ( That precisously why my character trusted Morrigan )  Of course you won't know that if you 1.) did not hardened her  and 2.) didn't have high friendship with her. But still that doesn't prove she's "evil". She just an ordinary woman who feel insecure  when loving someone else and try to hide it behind "survival to the fittest" philosophy. In the end she is still vulnerable as any other woman. Just read her conversation lines at the end of Witch Hunt and you know that she is no difference or "evil" at all . 

Morrigan: Tell me: why did you come?
Maverick Cousland: I came for answers.
Morrigan: Answers. We all want answers. We had a deal, I save your life and in return you leave me be. Why should I answer any of your questions now?
Maverick Cousland: Because you owe me the truth.
Morrigan: Owe you? It was a fair trade I should think. But we were once close, that should be worth something, perhaps
Morrigan: Ask your questions then, since you have traveled so far.
Maverick Cousland: Tell me where the child is.
Morrigan: He is safe, and beyond your reach. All you need know is that the child is an innocent. He knows nothing of the destiny that lies before him.
 Maverick Cousland: That’s not good enough
Morrigan: Because the child is yours? I understand. I will not share my plan with you. If your trust is insufficient, then your anger will have to do.
Maverick Cousland: What is your plan? I want to know.
Morrigan: My plan is to leave, and prepare the child for what is to come. Such preparation requires time. And power. I must have both if I am to be successful. More than this, I dare not say. Even to you.
Maverick Cousland: Why did you betray me?
Morrigan: I did not betray you. I left, just as I said I would.
Maverick Cousland: You used me to get what you wanted!
Morrigan: I fought with you! I put my life on the line to aid your quest! And then the battle came too soon. I had no choice but to go to you, and I did not want to see you die. And here you stand, alive. So do not speak to me of betrayal. 
Morrigan: ‘Tis Flemeth you should beware of, not me. Hunt her, if you hunt anyone.
Maverick Cousland: Flemeth is dead. 
Morrigan: My mother has tricked her way past death and more. She is no more finished than I am. 
Morrigan: I thought I knew what Flemeth planned. I thought what she craved was immortality. And yet I was wrong. So very wrong. She is no blood mage, no abomination... She is not even truly human. The ritual was but a means to an end, a herald for what is to come.
Maverick Cousland: Why? What is going to happen?
Morrigan: Change is coming to the world. Many fear change and will fight it with every fiber of their being. But sometimes change is what they need most. Sometimes change is what sets them free.
Maverick Cousland: And is that what you want? To be free? 
Morrigan: What I want... is unimportant now.  I cannot tarry longer. The time has come for me to go.
Maverick Cousland: Take me with you. 
Morrigan You.. cannot know what you ask. T’would be better if you stayed. For you, for us both.
Maverick Cousland: I want to be with you. No matter what. 
Morrigan: Then come, my love. We will face the future together

END 3: The Warden and Morrigan kiss, and leave through the portal together.

BubbleDncr wrote...

And even if you believe Morrigan plans on raising the baby to be good, there's no reason to think Flemeth (or anyone else in the world) won't defeat Morrigan, take the baby, and raise it how they see fit.

That's still not the baby's fault. That would be Flemeth's fault. In any case, we could safely assume that Flemeth wont want to destroy the world. Otherwise she wont bothering herself to save both the Warden and Hawke.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 30 mai 2012 - 04:25 .

[rapscallioness]

Oh! The Old God Baby! Please, BW. Please, I beg you...address this. I know not not everyobne did the dark ritual...but that's never stopped you before.

It just that I worry for this baby. I had never thought about this, but when playing Awakenings, Ogrhen is telling the Warden about his crazy dreams. It's sounds all whatever at first..kinda..except for the "teach us how to read and write". I'm thinking wow, they're...thinking now.

But the part that freaked me was when Ogrhen said something about one darkspawn kept whispering to him.."Where's the baby."

That's when it hit me. They'd prolly know and want to hunt this baby. Corrupt it. I had never factored that into my decision to do the dark ritual.

They want to hurt this baby (corrupt it) because they sense it has an old god in it.

I worry for this Little One.

And then Morrigan said something once about the Warden resenting her...some dialogue choice..and she said.."that resentment will last (or live?) as long as this child inside of me does." What? What's that supposed to mean?

Anybody do Witch Hunt? I haven't. Does it shed any light?

edit: read dialogue from prev. post. Interesting.

Modifié par rapscallioness, 30 mai 2012 - 04:39 .

[Plaintiff]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

I think this whole Chantry/Mage Circle conflict as a main plot isn't a good way to go. A lot complained about how boring Act 3 was. I hope they reduce the conflict to a side plot in DAIII and bring back the Darkspawn threat (with original looking darkspawn and more variety of them from Origins). It just a shame that all the characters from Origins continue on with the Dragon Age world yet you have to interact with them like you don't even know them as a new protagonist.

If I want to play the exact plot from Origins, I can just play Origins.