471 réponses à ce sujet

[Sabriana]

I admit that I've not read everything. But no, do not make Hawke the PC. She did not do anything but react. Anders is the main character anyways (even though Hawke ignored him all trough the game because he is annoying, and not in a good way). Hawke just simply sat on her hands until she had to react. I do not like her, at all. Good riddance.

[hussey 92]

Sabariel wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

I'm tired of Hawke. Time for a new protagonist. Preferably a dwarven protagonist.....

Considering 80-85% played humans in Origins that will never happen. Word is only 5% played dwarves.

That's not really important. What is important is how many people would not play the game if it only had a dwarven protagonist. The other problem with the stats is that human is the default which means anyone choosing default will also choose human.

I don't mind either way as long as the protaganist is interesting.

I didn't mean "dwarf only". I meant "bring back race choice pls."

And 102.63% of statistics are made up

Actually its not made up...if you do a search the developers said it themselves.

Yeah, I know they did.  And they could have made it up because "102.63% of statistics are made up". That was the terrible joke I made.


Anyway, they've also said something like 80% of people played as M!Shepard during ME1 and F!Shepard still made it into ME2.


I really, really, really, really, really don't want to be stuck playing as a boringbutt human in future games. Variety pls.

^Very good point.

Modifié par hussey 92, 30 mai 2012 - 08:59 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Oh! The Old God Baby! Please, BW. Please, I beg you...address this. I know not not everyobne did the dark ritual...but that's never stopped you before.

This is something that I have been thinking about the past few days actually.

I remember back in the day (before I was on this rocking chair telling kids to get off my lawn) when game imports were usually nothing more than stat/inventory imports, if they exist before. We typically had to accept that some decisions from the sequels were just canon.

People clearly like the idea of reactivity continuing into the next game, but how do we balance telling an interesting story that we want to create for the player, and creating choice?

The Old God Child is probably the biggest point, because it's one that those that did the ritual are definitely super interested in, but if we force a game plot to utilize it, then those that didn't choose it may feel marginalized and jaded that the choice wasn't reflected. At the same time though, I think fans would have been MORE upset if the dark ritual was forced. I suppose we could have had Morrigan forcibly do it with someone else, but that ship has sailed.

Discuss (and be gentle! >.>). I'll grab the popcorn. I may split this into a separate thread though if people want to run with it.

[HiroVoid]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Oh! The Old God Baby! Please, BW. Please, I beg you...address this. I know not not everyobne did the dark ritual...but that's never stopped you before.

This is something that I have been thinking about the past few days actually.

I remember back in the day (before I was on this rocking chair telling kids to get off my lawn) when game imports were usually nothing more than stat/inventory imports, if they exist before. We typically had to accept that some decisions from the sequels were just canon.

People clearly like the idea of reactivity continuing into the next game, but how do we balance telling an interesting story that we want to create for the player, and creating choice?

The Old God Child is probably the biggest point, because it's one that those that did the ritual are definitely super interested in, but if we force a game plot to utilize it, then those that didn't choose it may feel marginalized and jaded that the choice wasn't reflected. At the same time though, I think fans would have been MORE upset if the dark ritual was forced. I suppose we could have had Morrigan forcibly do it with someone else, but that ship has sailed.

Discuss (and be gentle! >.>). I'll grab the popcorn. I may split this into a separate thread though if people want to run with it.

Glad to see you mention it especially since based on one of Gaider's old interviews, that's an issue that's just difficult to handle.  Personally, I'm of the opinion that's honestly a plot point that would be better off just retconning if it benefits the story even though I have characters who did the ultimate sacrifice.  Also, there's no telling if you can import saves onto the next generation of consoles, so if you can't, you already have more than half(maybe 3/4 since there are those who could play DA3, but didn't play DA2.  Then, you're still only including those who did the ultimate sacrifice while the Dark Ritual was the more popular option.) the fanbase not being able to import their saves anyway.

[Fast Jimmy]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Oh! The Old God Baby! Please, BW. Please, I beg you...address this. I know not not everyobne did the dark ritual...but that's never stopped you before.

This is something that I have been thinking about the past few days actually.

I remember back in the day (before I was on this rocking chair telling kids to get off my lawn) when game imports were usually nothing more than stat/inventory imports, if they exist before. We typically had to accept that some decisions from the sequels were just canon.

People clearly like the idea of reactivity continuing into the next game, but how do we balance telling an interesting story that we want to create for the player, and creating choice?

The Old God Child is probably the biggest point, because it's one that those that did the ritual are definitely super interested in, but if we force a game plot to utilize it, then those that didn't choose it may feel marginalized and jaded that the choice wasn't reflected. At the same time though, I think fans would have been MORE upset if the dark ritual was forced. I suppose we could have had Morrigan forcibly do it with someone else, but that ship has sailed.

Discuss (and be gentle! >.>). I'll grab the popcorn. I may split this into a separate thread though if people want to run with it.

I really was amazed by the concept of choice import in the ME games and in DA. It was truly unique that a company would take the stance to have choices in one game affect another.

However, aside from the Tuchanka and Rannoch missions in ME3, I feel like almost every previous choice from both sets of games has been maginalized. Performed the US in DA:O? Well, we'll just have a McGuffin to bring you back for the expansion. Kill the Council at the end of ME1? We'll just skip the council section in ME2 and in ME3, have a different council be around. Made Allistair and Anora get married and become king and queen? It will result in a small cameo that has no impact on anything, ever.

While I love the concept, and respect the amount of effort it takes into making decisions be impactful in subsequent games while, at the same time, not marginalizing the experience of those new to the series, it just isn't panning out how I'm sure the gamers and the devs aliked dreamed it would. So I'm fine with forced canon and leaving imports by the side.

I'll use the Fallout universe, since I know you are a fan of it, Allan. 

In Fallout 1, your visit to Shady Sands could result in helping the Khans, the evil Raiders plaguing the city. It was a legitimate option that was offered to play an evil character. It had minimal impact on the rest of the game, but the epilogue stated that the Khans went on to wipe out the town and kill everyone in it.

Now... anyone who is a fan of the Fallout series should know that the town of Shady Sands in FO1 goes on to become what is known as the NCR, one of the most powerful governments in the west. This is reflected in an epilogue at the end of FO1 and is carried on through FO2 and FONV.

Point being, I thought it was awesome the way you could play an evil character. And I thought it was awesome that when I beat FO1 and had saved the town, my actions had led it to becoming a stabilizing force throughout the Wastelands. The fact that one choice over another was picked as canon isn't stifling to me... it tells an awesome story and shows that the game world grows in an organic way we can't always predict.

So - my answer? Give me insane amounts of choice in the game, complete with a myriad of endings and impact those choices could have. And bugger future games. If anything that is cool, unique or helps tell a good story is blocked because you have to think "But how will that affect future games?" then it is stifling creative endeavours and needs to be stopped*.



*Caveat - unless the games in question are a trilogy like Mass Effect. If you plan on a totally encapsulated series of games, where choices only need to be carried over for X amount of games, then this is possible. ME3 I think did a extremely good job of this in some respects, but in the majority of others it faltered in lieu of providing the same experience for everyone. Which is a shame, since as the planned trilogy of Bioware, it had the best chance of providing custom content depending on a myriad of actions that didn't have to take the longevity of the series into account.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 30 mai 2012 - 10:54 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Glad to see you mention it especially since based on one of Gaider's old
interviews, that's an issue that's just difficult to handle. 
Personally, I'm of the opinion that's honestly a plot point that would
be better off just retconning if it benefits the story even though
I have characters who did the ultimate sacrifice.  Also, there's no
telling if you can import saves onto the next generation of consoles, so
if you can't, you already have more than half(maybe 3/4 since there are
those who could play DA3, but didn't play DA2.  Then, you're still only
including those who did the ultimate sacrifice while the Dark Ritual
was the more popular option.) the fanbase not being able to import their
saves anyway.

Well, it depends on how we'd do any type of "decision import."

ME3 lets players loosely specify some of the stuff that could happen in earlier games during chargen and so forth. KOTOR 2 had a creative idea of incorporating it into dialogues and stuff like that. All losing a specific saved game import really does is restrict the granularity of the decisions to only the big decisions. So it'd be less likely to include if we hardened Alistair, but the Old God Baby is definitely one of the primary choices of DAO.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 30 mai 2012 - 10:56 .

[Allan Schumacher]

*Caveat - unless the games in question are a trilogy like Mass Effect. If you plan on a totally encapsulated series of games, where choices only need to be carried over for X amount of games, then this is possible. ME3 I think did a extremely good job of this in some respects, but in the majority of others it faltered in lieu of providing the same experience for everyone. Which is a shame, since as the planned trilogy of Bioware, it had the best chance of providing custom content depending on a myriad of actions that didn't have to take the longevity of the series into account.

I do agree that it is easier to do with plans for multiple games.

Fallout was actually one game I was specifically thinking of

[HiroVoid]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
So - my answer? Give me insane amounts of choice in the game, complete with a myriad of endings and impact those choices could have. And bugger future games. If anything that is cool, unique or helps tell a good story is blocked because you have to think "But how will that affect future games?" then it is stifling creative endeavours and needs to be stopped*.



*Caveat - unless the games in question are a trilogy like Mass Effect. If you plan on a totally encapsulated series of games, where choices only need to be carried over for X amount of games, then this is possible. ME3 I think did a extremely good job of this in some respects, but in the majority of others it faltered in lieu of providing the same experience for everyone. Which is a shame, since as the planned trilogy of Bioware, it had the best chance of providing custom content depending on a myriad of actions that didn't have to take the longevity of the series into account.

Pretty much my take on the whole import situation.  I'd rather choices focus more on adversely affecting the game I'm playing at the moment rather than them just slightly affecting a scene or quest in a future game.

ME3 lets players loosely specify some of the stuff that could happen in
earlier games during chargen and so forth. KOTOR 2 had a creative idea
of incorporating it into dialogues and stuff like that. All losing a
specific saved game import really does is restrict the granularity of
the decisions to only the big decisions. So it'd be less likely to
include if we hardened Alistair, but the Old God Baby is definitely one
of the primary choices of DAO.

I could see that working in a similar manner.  Have you'll ever thought of including something like a checklist of choices a player could just pick before the game begins with a default start and one the players can customize, or would that be considered a bit too out there to include(like scaring away new players I suppose?)?

Modifié par HiroVoid, 30 mai 2012 - 11:08 .

[thats1evildude]

I still think the easiest way to resolve the OGB dilemma is to feature Morrigan's son as a party member with abilities similar to that of his mother. If the player performed the Dark Ritual, then he's the OGB. If not, then he's Morrigan's son by other means than the Dark Ritual and still inherits her powers. Either way, he's sent out by his mother to accompany the main character in order to achieve some particular goal relating to the plot of … well, whatever Dragon Age title he appears in.

I know most people expect the OGB to be Baby Cthulhu or the new Anti-Andraste, but there's no particular reason for him to be some omnipotent super-being. The Archdemon sure as heck wasn't all-powerful.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 30 mai 2012 - 11:17 .

[MichaelStuart]

I don't think the god baby is important by it's self, I think it's more important to find out what Morrigan/Flemeth wanted the baby for. It wouldn't surprise me if they didn't need the god baby to complete their plan to change the world. Just remember that Flemeth treated Death as a mild inconvenience, so I suspect she as a back-up plan.
As for people who didn't do the Dark ritual (me included) missing out on stuff, I don't think they would mind if you gave them a lot of other stuff to do.
You should also give them a option to change there choice before the game.

note:I would like to point out you can have a normal baby with Morrigan if you sleep with her and not do the ritual. I would like to find out what happened to this child.

[HiroVoid]

MichaelStuart wrote...
note:I would like to point out you can have a normal baby with Morrigan if you sleep with her and not do the ritual. I would like to find out what happened to this child.

Epilogue slides are unreliable and open to change.  That's not to say this will, but they are the most unreliable sources it seems.  Basically, assume they're true until proven otherwise

....Is the child mentioned in Witch Hunt if you didn't do the Dark Ritual?

Modifié par HiroVoid, 30 mai 2012 - 11:17 .

[thats1evildude]

It doesn't even have to be the Warden's kid. It could be some child she snatched away from some poor parents, just as Flemeth once did to Morrigan (or is at least speculated to).

[AngryFrozenWater]

This is just what I think: Hawke was a terrible character. She was not able to control anything. Her voice acting wasn't very interesting. There was no real choice in armor: You just had to make sure not to miss a piece. I rather have a totally new character, which does not remind me of the bad taste that DA2 left in my mouth.

I also rather have a choice what race the character has. I am not very interested in the economic reasons not to do so. That goes for any economic streamlining to the series. If BW wants to sell more copies than Skyrim then it needs to put in some effort, instead of cutting stuff because it is cheaper and sell it to us as "innovations".

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 30 mai 2012 - 11:33 .

[MichaelStuart]

HiroVoid wrote...

MichaelStuart wrote...
note:I would like to point out you can have a normal baby with Morrigan if you sleep with her and not do the ritual. I would like to find out what happened to this child.

Epilogue slides are unreliable and open to change.  That's not to say this will, but they are the most unreliable sources it seems.  Basically, assume they're true until proven otherwise

....Is the child mentioned in Witch Hunt if you didn't do the Dark Ritual?

Yes, you can say that you heared she had a baby, and she will confirm that it's true and that the baby is safe. Also I think she says that the baby was a boy. 

[Allan Schumacher]

I could see that working in a similar manner.  Have you'll ever thought of including something like a checklist of choices a player could just pick before the game begins with a default start and one the players can customize, or would that be considered a bit too out there to include(like scaring away new players I suppose?)?

Depends entirely on how it is all set up.  With ME3 it was a bit more mandatory especially with Virmire and whatnot, but there are definitely alternatives we can do.

[AngryFrozenWater]

I agree with Fast Jimmy's response to Allan Schumacher on page 4. Well said.

[Fast Jimmy]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I do agree that it is easier to do with plans for multiple games.

Fallout was actually one game I was specifically thinking of

It is one of the best series of RPGs ever, in my humblest of opinions. FO3 was the weakest, I think... and that's saying something (mostly due to the cookie-cutter, choices-didn't-matter-endings... sounds like another game that ends in 3 I can think of...). :innocent:


In fact, another good example of establishing canon for the good was seeing Harold in FO3. Harold, as a character, was really cool. I mean... he had a freaking tree growing out of his head.

Despite the fact that he could have been killed in FO2 during the Gecko mission, he is still alive and well (I suppose... being a sentient forest is pretty well, I think?) and makes for a logical but unexpected cameo and mission. I think the idea could have worked fine without using Harold, but the fact that they did was a really good reach out to the old games and made me smile.


But back more to the topic at hand... I think the only way to make importable choices workable is A) a set timeline (such as a established trilogy... although even this had pitfalls with ME), a very limited number of choices that are going to carryover (meaning establishing dictatoral canon in most places, but having deep and impactful import choices - more than just cameo and random quest, truly impactful), C) establishing a choice decision mechanism during the sequel's character generation (which would require, again, a small number of things to be imported)...

or D) The Golden Goose - where you go for broke and develop signifcant amount of custom content that less than 25% of players would find unless they played the previous games in a certain manner.

Its a golden goose because it is extremely expensive, but it also has a chance of laying you a golden egg in the resale or bundling of previous titles. For instance, if people had really felt like the choices made in ME1 and 2 really, and I mean REALLY, affected how things played out in ME3, a bundle combining all three games and extra DLC could be sold for twice or even three times the current sticker price of ME3 alone in a few months. 


That's my two cents. I wouldn't lose a single wink of sleep if they wiped all choices clean for the DA franchise (I'm really not sure of more than three or so that could be imported from DA2 that would really matter if Hawke wasn't the main character) and started setting game canon. Just chalk the whole thing up to a failed experiement, a brilliant but ultimately unsustainable attempt to do the impossible.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 31 mai 2012 - 12:09 .

[Fast Jimmy]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I agree with Fast Jimmy's response to Allan Schumacher on page 4. Well said.

Awww, shucks.

[Samuel_Valkyrie]

The Star Wars games in general make the Light Side path the canon endings. Which came in handy with KOTOR. With ME and DA, whether true or not, the idea was created that choices had actual ramifications beyond the lifespan of the game proper. Which was true, but choices that seemed they should have a huge impact, were marginalized.

I think it is a huge challenge to expect the writing team to not only tell a story, but to have it linked to previous installments in more than a superficial manner. But, for those choices to have any impact whatsoever, it is a challenge that they should rise to. If not, the public is genre-savvy enough to know that in following iterations of the game, their choices are marginalized anyhow, which will diminish their immersion, diminish how hard and heavy these choices should be.

Also, I fully support OP's position in having Hawke as the protagonist of DA3: His story isn't over. DA2 was a stepping paltform, having him rise to a position of influence and notoriety. Now, it is time for him to DO something with that position.

I was told Hawke would be the most influential individual in the realm of Thedas. I have yet to see Hawke live up to that promise.

Also, I want more MaleHawke-X-Merrill.

[Samuel_Valkyrie]

GOD, I want more MaleHawke-X-Merrill! I'd give my firstborn son for that!

[ohnotherancor]

thats1evildude wrote...

I still think the easiest way to resolve the OGB dilemma is to feature Morrigan's son as a party member with abilities similar to that of his mother. If the player performed the Dark Ritual, then he's the OGB. If not, then he's Morrigan's son by other means than the Dark Ritual and still inherits her powers. Either way, he's sent out by his mother to accompany the main character in order to achieve some particular goal relating to the plot of … well, whatever Dragon Age title he appears in.

I know most people expect the OGB to be Baby Cthulhu or the new Anti-Andraste, but there's no particular reason for him to be some omnipotent super-being. The Archdemon sure as heck wasn't all-powerful.

I like this idea the best. I would hate for the Dark Ritual/OGB to be canonized because it totally invalidates the other 3 endings. What were my Wardens' or Alistair's or Loghain's sacrifices for if the OGB just ends up popping up anyway? It's the most important decision in DA:O (both roleplaying-wise and story-wise, in my eyes) and to just toss it out the window would leave me wondering why you guys even bothered having an import function in the first place.

I can't speak for anyone but myself, of course, but I would be really upset if the OGB/DR was canonized. I would like to see branching storylines for people who did the OGB and people who didn't, but it doesn't seem like there's any interest (or ability, due to zots) to do that. I would like consequences to my choices for once and not have them handled like the Rachni Queen again.

Modifié par x0hn0th3r4nc0rx, 31 mai 2012 - 12:51 .

[Samuel_Valkyrie]

I personally don;t like the idea of having Morrigan's child as a companion.

I would prefer the following: (Spoilers ahead!)

Flemeth is a very prominent figure in the series. She also seems to have her fingers all over the palce, manipulate people, whole events. Not without reason, obviously. She's building up to something big. But what? The only person who would have a semblance of a clue would be Morrigan.

I would suggest having Morrigan (optional: with a companion) appear early on in the game that deals with Flemeth. Morrigan seems to be involved with something big, and the protagonist (hopefully Hawke) takes notice of her.
Some time later, you encounter her again. Thoughout the story, you experience glances of her, or talk to her directly. You have the option to talk to individuals she has encountered as well, and you can find out more about her (optional: and her companion), her past, and what she has been doing. Slowly but steadily, what seemed to be a simple sidequest becomes more and more entangled into the main quest, until her plotline becomes a secondary objective. Throughout the game, the choices you make regarding her, and the choices you made in DA:O, affect her (optional: and her companion).

When you reach the conclusion of this game, and face Flemeth in her ultimate form, Morrigan appears. Depending on your choices, she can join you in your fight, or help Flemeth, or stand idly by until the battle is over. If you picked the Dark Ritual option, the companion is revealed to be the son. Depending on your choices, throughout the game, and here at the end, a few options are possible:

• Either the son joins his mother in fighting you.
• Or, the son joins Flemeth (who, like him, or so it is insinuated, is an Archdemon) while Morrigan joins you.
• Or Morrigan sacrifices him, to gain his strength and power through their kinship, and joins either you or Flemeth.

Modifié par Samuel_Valkyrie, 31 mai 2012 - 01:22 .

[LinksOcarina]

Here is the problem with this. While in most stories a continuous protagonist is key, those stories typically have a finite ending to them.

Dragon Age is being set up for a continual experience, and it makes a continuous protagonist unnecessary, and it is something that I find intriguing because it is a style of literary telling that is rarely seen in fantasy fiction. Chronicles of Narnia and Game of Thrones sort of do this, but they bring back characters constantly because of out love for them.

We saw some of that with some characters making cameo appearances, like Alistar, Zevran and Leliana, to name a few. We also saw it with Cullen as well, and Flemeth. It is keeping with the games continuity that the character created, which makes sense regarding the given storyline at the moment.

My point though is that what BioWare is doing is creating a world with stories in them, versus a story in the backdrop of the world. The most important events in the two games are world events, ones that change the landscape for better or worse. Your characters are involved in them somehow, and that is why we follow them basically. So I say, why not let them continue this fluid look at protagonists? It is like Final Fantasy, only keeping continuity with the world this time around between games.