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[ISpeakTheTruth]

So I was thinking about Dragon Age a few days ago and I started to think about my favorite character in the entire series Leliana and why at the end of DA2 she's alive and well even though she can be killed in the game and I don't think its the Devs saying that her dying isn't canon instead I think her possibly dying but then coming back might be a very clear sign that she wasn't crazy afterall.

Don't get me wrong I loved her character but I never believed that the Maker talked to her or any of the other things that she said but maybe she isn't making it up. Maybe the Maker (Or some god-like being) has been talking to her and was brought back to life by that same being?

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

That wouldn't rule her out as still being crazy.

[Bhryaen]

Yeah, I'm still voting for crazy. The Guardian was right

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

I don't recall them ever saying she can't die, only that they have a reason (as yet unspecified) why she doesn't stay dead.

There's a difference.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Someone had to bring her back from the fade and heal her, or she has a twin sister.

[Leiha]

BioWare made a mistake. They didn't think really think ahead; they didn't realize they still wanted Leliana's character in the game. So Leliana dying is supposedly not canon, but they will dish up a nice story to cover up the slip for us. I don't think this is proof for her vision to be true since it isn't canon.

And honestly, the Guardian saying she made it up is enough proof against her in my opinion. But I'll respect other people's view on things and am willing to listen, of course. Being proved wrong isn't bad.

[Wulfram]

The Guardian doesn't say she made it up. He reads her doubts from her own mind and challenges her with them, just as he does with everyone else.

[Corker]

Wulfram wrote...

The Guardian doesn't say she made it up. He reads her doubts from her own mind and challenges her with them, just as he does with everyone else.

Holy...  I think you're right.  I've got to go listen to his dialogue again.

I also heard it as much more declarative than the others - I remember him asking Wynne if she "fears" she's just a trite windbag, Zevran if he "regrets," and so on, but I always had the impression he was directly accusing Leliana of making the whole thing up. 

But it would make so much more sense if he was reflecting her own doubts back at her, as you say.

[Nerdage]

Wulfram wrote...

The Guardian doesn't say she made it up. He reads her doubts from her own mind and challenges her with them, just as he does with everyone else.

That was my impression, too.

I don't think she "made it up", I think she believes what she's saying (at least initially), but I still don't think the maker's communicating with her. Seems to me like something unusual happened and she saw what she wanted to see in it, but since she's trying to do good and not standing outside the chantry shouting "The end is nigh!" it's not necessarily a bad thing either.

Maybe it'll be more clear if/when we learn just how she survives..

[Aleya]

Hanz54321 wrote...
Yeah . . . they did say that . . . after she turned up alive in DA2.

There's lore, and there's reasons behind the lore.  Sometimes those reasons are not as pure or romantic as we'd like.  Sometimes the real reason is the marketability of an established character and the dolla dolla bills that come with it.

And sometimes the reason is that one of the higher ups at Bioware has a thing for sweet-but-not-so-innocent-after-all bad girl spies.

No, seriously, between Leliana and Liara, their respective DLCs, their plot armor and their importance to the plot, SOMEONE has a type.

[SiIencE]

If you let Anders get taken by the templar in the beginning of Awakening he's still with Justice in DA2..

[gandanlin]

Leliana described her vision of the dead rose in the garden coming back to life -- blooming afresh when everyone knew it was dead.  Maybe Leliana was also that rose... symbolically, or however that works.

For some reason, Leliana's story always makes me think about this:

http://en.wikipedia....oman_de_la_Rose

Maybe I just like to assign such stuff to her.  Hard to say.

[Bhryaen]

Wulfram wrote...
The Guardian doesn't say she made it up. He reads her doubts from her own mind and challenges her with them, just as he does with everyone else.

Quite the contrary, the Guardian tells her to her face that her "Maker" wasn't purported to "talk" with anyone in history other than Andraste herself (which is, of course, convenient), yet Leliana actually contends that she's hearing from her invisible "Maker" buddy directly. The Guardian may specialize in feeding doubts back at people, but that doesn't mean he doesn't employ facts, and nor does it mean Lelianna's primary doubts in herself aren't justified. Yet in that scene Lelianna has no mature response to this, unlike even the surly Oghren who at least readily admits his failings. Instead she just stammers about how "that's not true!" and thus remains delusional despite that ideal opportunity for self-honesty, not unlike most religious folks...

So, yes, she still gets my "crazy" vote...:innocent:

Modifié par Bhryaen, 22 mai 2012 - 10:23 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Here's the thing... we have absolutely no idea how the Guardian's magic works. It might be from the Maker, but I think there's a vein of lyrium Oghren can notice under the mountain. Either way, it involves him knowing things he has literally no other way of noticing from his isolation, so cold reading's out. (I thought I should mention this possibility and the counterargument, since his description of it does sound exactly like cold reading, and such a thing would be totally in line with the DA setting.) Still, I don't think that there are any indications as to whether he can see accurately enough to diagnose mental instability. If, on the other hand, she had knowingly made it up, he would see that. One question is if she had had an ordinary dream and mistaken it as a sign from The Maker, whether he would be able to tell for sure. (There were plenty of religions that had this as a tenant of their faith, even though in real life we're pretty sure that's not how it works. Indeed, I think there's probably still people who do that.) One thing I should point out is he doesn't catch a more amoral Warden's plan to unlock the Reaver specialization until it's too late, so that suggests some limitations to his magic that one wouldn't think it would have.

As for Bhryaen noting that it was convenient that The Maker last spoke through Andraste, (I didn't use the quote button because the part I needed would have been a sentence fragment) and would never speak through anyone else ever again... well, yeah. At first I was going to note that the Guardian would be above such elitism (even if the Chantry demonstrably isn't) but he does sound pretty self-important at times. If the Maker did spontaneously appear and relieve him of his duties, would he believe it?

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 23 mai 2012 - 12:03 .

[Bhryaen]

Well, the thing here is... The only thing demonstratively and confirmed true about the DA gameworld is that magic exists and eminates from dreams and death... or something like that. No deity is confirmed true- not the Maker, not the elven gods, not the barbarian deities, and even the notion of the Archdemon as an "old god" is just a way of speaking. This is such a brilliant and refreshing approach to take by game devs (though despite this they load the game with Makerism phraseology *sigh*) and one of many things I really appreciate about DAO- the option to be a non-believer rather than being compelled to play superstitious. I eschew all "By the Maker!" type dialogue options most gratefully and have never been forced to choose one yet, not even in discussion with Lelianna the Loon herself. And Praise Be for the dwarves and their deityless ancestor worship.

But as to the Guardian using his magic to tell Leliana she's bonkers, no: he simply makes it clear she's being dishonest, and then she demonstrates that she's bonkers. He's not so "elitist" that he uses his parlor trick to call names... But I am!

:devil:At least in this case.

Modifié par Bhryaen, 23 mai 2012 - 12:35 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Bhryaen wrote...

But as to the Guardian using his magic to tell Leliana she's bonkers, no: he simply makes it clear she's being dishonest, and then she demonstrates that she's bonkers. He's not so "elitist" that he uses his parlor trick to call names... But I am!

:devil:At least in this case.

Is it clear she is dishonest or bonkers, though? Part of the appeal of Dragon Age (I think) is that you can never really tell... She might have really had a vision, or she might be engaging in the popular religious pastime of taking a perfectly mundane occurance and reading a divine message into it. There are (reasonably) sane people in this world who do that. Or, she might be a liar, or she might be nuts.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Hanz54321 wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

I don't recall them ever saying she can't die, only that they have a reason (as yet unspecified) why she doesn't stay dead.

There's a difference.

Yeah . . . they did say that . . . after she turned up alive in DA2.

There's lore, and there's reasons behind the lore.  Sometimes those reasons are not as pure or romantic as we'd like.  Sometimes the real reason is the marketability of an established character and the dolla dolla bills that come with it.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I've gone on rants about how they brought Oghren back from the dead for Awakening (apparently he was drunk/unconscious, and the PC didn't kill him).

My point for Leliana is that she might actually have been slain. Coming back from the dead is a heck of a lot more impressive than coming back from a drunken stupor, and considering the locale she can be killed in I'd more readily go along with something that sounds miraculous or magical because, hey, lyrium-infused caves that have permeated some dead woman's ashes to cure any ill.

Really I don't care how marketable or profitable it is to throw in a familar NPC, so long as the meeting is logically conceived. On the whole, companions who can be killed shouldn't be cast in returning roles, much less epilogue cinematics, unless the devs want to face certain questions.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...


Oh, don't get me wrong. I've gone on rants about how they brought Oghren back from the dead for Awakening (apparently he was drunk/unconscious, and the PC didn't kill him).

My point for Leliana is that she might actually have been slain. Coming back from the dead is a heck of a lot more impressive than coming back from a drunken stupor, and considering the locale she can be killed in I'd more readily go along with something that sounds miraculous or magical because, hey, lyrium-infused caves that have permeated some dead woman's ashes to cure any ill.

Really I don't care how marketable or profitable it is to throw in a familar NPC, so long as the meeting is logically conceived. On the whole, companions who can be killed shouldn't be cast in returning roles, much less epilogue cinematics, unless the devs want to face certain questions.

I'd never thought of that possibility of the cavern bringing her back to life before. I guess it makes more sense in that context.

As for knocking Oghren out and leaving him for dead... the guy can survive being basically eaten by a dragon, being boiled alive from the inside, being brained by The Guardian's hammer (the head of which is bigger than most brains), and all sorts of other things that would kill a real person. Why shouldn't he survive being cut down by your PC, when he can survive being cut down by just about anyone/thing else? My question is why he would want to come back... I've never gotten the thing where you kill Oghren before, but if I remember the YouTube video about it, he attacks you on the grounds that he freaking hates you.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 23 mai 2012 - 01:40 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Hah, yes, excellent point I suppose the devs would say he cooled down from hating you. I mean, he cooled down from being your BFF, so why not, right? *And* he was drunk. He probably doesn't even remember getting into that fight. It was all a dream!

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Hanz54321 wrote...

And for the record - I typically don't kill Lelianna.  I like her.

I can only think of the one time you can kill Leliana, and I thought it was funnier to go out of my way not to. I basically planned that playthrough around hardening Leiliana and getting 3 coercion before I got to the Sacred Ashes, so that I could have her watch, claim she'll never forgive me, and then jump my bones again as soon as I got her back to camp. 

(Getting the required 3 coercion was difficult, what with not having the extra skill points afforded to a rogue, and not doing Broken Circle for the requisite exp so as to recruit Wynne after defiling the ashes. I don't know if I could have done all this, except that my Warden in that playthrough was a Spirit Healer, and thus Wynne was less than neccesary.)