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[gandanlin]

Well, I suppose there is another related question. If the Guardian is some sort of seer/psychiatrist who can diagnose mental illnesses in a twinkling, what the heck is he doing hanging around the Gauntlet waiting for ages and ages on the off-chance that people might show up?

He really needed to move on. Get himself a proper office.

But anyway, I liked Leliana. She seemed a Joan of Arc sort of character, crossed with something else quite unique to DAO. Without her the religious tenor of the story would have been quite different. She was tenor, wasn't she?

Modifié par gandanlin, 23 mai 2012 - 09:45 .

[Bhryaen]

More crazy? I thought we were all full up... I think this is where I start backing away looking for an exit... lol Lelianna rightfully inspires these lines, insisting on my dwarf doing Lelianna's "Maker's" work rather than getting credit for doing her dwarfy own work... Oh, and by the way I was actually there and saw all my characters doing their own (well, mine) work, no Halla goddesses or Zeuslike deity-with-the-hots-for-mortal-girls required. If anyone would be a Joan of Arc it would be Andraste herself who led the revolt with her unsubstantiated claims of a deity "at work."

Lelianna as a Joan of Arc though... hadn't really made that connection given she's a rogue in Chantry disguise rather than a warrior and a bard with a history of socializing with nobles rather than a leader of peasant rebellion and resistance... But she is French and religious, so that's enough, right?

The Guardian doesn't seem to be anyone's shrink, however- just insightful into the inner dynamics of a person's character. It's true though that such insights don't really serve much of a purpose as an intro to a simple puzzle and riddle challenge. Despite the lead up seeming to indicate some great reckoning with one's "inner demons," plus meeting old friends and being forced to kill yourself, it's not like the Urn is any great moment other than an opportunity to be an evil twit and kill Joan of Salon Boots.

Lelianna: "I'm not a priest, not even an initiate." Then stop acting like it! No, there's already a great deal of Chantry storyline without her and Wynne's repetitive making Makerisms...

Modifié par Bhryaen, 24 mai 2012 - 02:04 .

[Corker]

Warrior? Peasant rebellion?

Joan of Arc was the daughter of a farmer who was also a minor village official. She said that she heard voices of saints and angels, encouraging her to lead the royal French army against the English in the Hundred Years' War. She convinced a count heading the local garrison that she was something, got him to get her an audience with the king, and impressed the king. It was at about this point that she asked for, and received, arms and armor.

At her trial, she would claim she never killed anyone with the sword.

Also at her trial, she really tended to tell the church questioners what-for. Insisting that she was a good Catholic and doing her best to avoid the traps they laid for her, she also refused to accept their demands that she agree that her voices were demonic. She insisted that her own experience was more valid and correct as their assumptions about her experience.

The charges against her were "insubordination and heterodoxy" - not toeing the Church line. That's why Leliana reminded me of Joan. She has a very personal view of the Maker, doesn't see why it matters if she flubs a word of the Chant here or there, and generally reminded me of Shaw's "St. Joan" all over the place.

[Bhryaen]

More attempts to graft Joan onto Leliana... *sigh*

I mind her excessive Chantry flubbing, requiring to endure it if I choose to recruit her away from the soon-to-be-overrun Lothering. It matters only to my own endurance of the game quirks, not to the storyline consistency, but that still matters... While Joan of Arc may have been very savvy in her use of her religiosity in that given social context, Leliana just prates on about it needlessly, perhaps more to convince herself. She needn't have mentioned her private "vision" at all to be a welcome rogue in a party lacking one.

Lel also doesn't have any of the attribute points at recruitment to indicate a STR build rogue- more a DEX/CUN archer- but, ok, you the player can Make her one if you prefer, albeit setback somewhat from a build she'd have had if you'd built her that way from the start. I don't, so this makes her sudden sporting of heavy armor (rather than leather and a bow) before French resistance forces somewhat unlikely, but still. And, no, Joan was no warrior in a battle-hardened sense, but that was the appearance she became famous for, the fearless warrior who would lead their charges in battle, hoisting the French banner high and valiantly. But, as a rogue, Leliana did kill... "I guess killing can be good sometimes..." She's only too eager to steal the XP from my characters in the Lothering tavern as she attacks the thugs she purportedly wished to be spared, and, though not as celebratory about it as Zevran, she has her exploits to boast about...

Joan was also indeed known for her ability to speak with and impress the "highest" of the nobility, and, yes, she was the daughter of a local head official, but think Murdock, not Arl Eamon- and of a town like Lothering, not Redcliffe. But it's not as if Joan consorted "above her station" the way Leliana did, hobnobbing and lounging about at French/ Orlesian salons eager to talk up and wear the latest footwear fashion. Frankly it was surprising that the DAO epilogue slides mention Morrigan as being a close advisor to a monarch rather than Leliana. Joan attained rare, brief, reluctant consultations, and her results in the field were what were most convincing to the French Crown to grant her audience, desperate as it was at the time. Joan spent the vast bulk of her life and efforts with her fellow French peasants, leading them in battle, exhorting them against the British invaders from within their ranks. Perhaps it is a stretch on my part to call it a peasant rebellion for such reasons, but for the most part the peasants were the ones defending the France they knew- their homes and villages- while the king just kept fleeing the British forces. It was similar to how the American Revolution was won mostly by the vast remote villages that the British couldn't hope to hold indefinitely rather than by any great generalship of Washington... except that the British were far better prepared to hold their position in France which is across a channel rather than an ocean. 

Leliana was also fulfilling part of a bardic espionage tendency, something a lot more reliant on subterfuge and, well, lying... sort of what the Guardian caught her up in. This isn't to scoff at the bards who were arguably as effective in their assassination role in Orlay as the Crows were in Antiva. It's just to say that Leliana is a completely different figure than Joan of Arc whose historical role was decisively conspicuous, even intentionally so, out front leading the soldiers, inspiring the French masses to persist, flaunting her courage publicly... rather than working mischief behind the scenes for years until she happens upon her beloved dispatcher's correspondence and is simply offered up for sacrifice as a liability, not captured. And Leliana, of course, escapes, unlike Jean d'arc. Everything is very private with Leliana- her life, her defining experiences, her relationships- never the public figure Joan of Arc was.

To be fair I've played neither DA2 nor Leliana herself in her DLC, so I don't know the rest of the story the DA devs have cooked up for her, and in an honest assessment Leliana may very well not be crazy. I say it mostly because I have no problem brushing her off most of the time, particularly when I'm already running a rogue character. And after all, her ruse as Chantry personnel did keep Marjolaine off her back for a while, so why not keep it up? It's just that once she leaves that brief stint in the Chant racket to join my merry band, and especially after Marjolaine is dead, she no longer needs to pretend that every flower is a direct personal message from a deity just to her, so I'd very much prefer her to drop it at some point or at least keep it to herself. And, since she doesn't- even presuming herself a spokesperson for the Chantry in her interactions with your chars- and since her approval rating is partly based on your "respect for her religion," if she's not crazy then she's just being intentionally annoying.

St. Joan, on the other hand, was certifiably crazy, but in a pragmatic and defiant way I can certainly respect. >:-)

Modifié par Bhryaen, 24 mai 2012 - 02:13 .

[seren2]

Interesting post. I did not know you could kill off Leliana, I thought that she simply left if you defiled the ashes, which my characters did not do, except one, and she was psycho from the word go.

Great post on the Roman Rose, Gandanlin. Very interesting and yes from the little bit I read, it does fit.....

The point about Ogren being only drunk or unconscious or both, true, and I guess it could apply to Leliana as well.

The gods part, well in the canon story, they are created beings as well, so the old gods do fit. It seems to echo the old D &D universe canon where Ao(sp?) was the original great god that made the others then checked out in disgust over the failures of his created beings.
I forget how many stories included the worshipers of Ao and stressed the fact Ao never responded to their prayers or anything else.

In this case, that would make the 'old gods' a cross between fade spirits and mortals, in dragon form.

It would also make Leliana closer to true believer than anyone who claims the 'maker' spoke to no one, ever.

Would the Maker bring Leliana back from the dead?
Why not? Wynne has the revival spell, and can bring any party member back during combat, no matter how many pieces the darkspawn cut off.

Just saying....

[seren2]

Well thought out post, Bhryaen .

I tend to see more similarities with Joan of Arc in the back ground story of Andraste.

For while everythng you mentioned about her is true, the real reason for her arrest and murder were her embarassing victories against the English. I say embarrassing, because the French nobility kept running and losing and here was this peasant girl leading an army and winning.
Which is why they betrayed her to the English, I think.

The official guilty reasons smell too much like ..... crap.

Anyway, in Andraste's story, her husband betrays her out of jealousy, which sounds like what happened to Joan of Arc as well.

But I can also see the similarities you pointed out, which leads me to think the writers intended to show a link to Andraste and to the historical Joan of Arc as well.

Great post, thoroughly enjoyed reading it.

[Bhryaen]

@seren2
I have no problem with the characters-coming-back-from-the-definitely-dead notion. Hell, I decapitated Ser Cauthrien and stomped her body in Arl Howe's Estate... only to be greeted by her later no worse for the wear at the entrance to the Landsmeet. Anything's possible in fiction, particularly one that includes "magic" and its own pantheon system. In Leliana's case she gets killed in front of... the Urn. If it can cure Arl Eamon when nothing else can, it can't cure her of a little stabbing to death, tainted by dragon blood or no?

I also don't have a lot of trouble with the heavy-handed deity shuffling of a Maker as a makeshift Ao, though it's not explicitly stated in DAO as it is in DnD deity manuals, but I still don't see how Leliana is closer to a true believer for the reason you state. She's pretty clear: the Maker's talking to her... directly... out of all the people in the world... her... maybe not in words but to her personally... and she claims thereby to know what this Maker wants and wills... So for a deity that's pretty much in permanent retirement, its acolytes should be either lazy, unassuming types or constantly entreating it to return to the deity workforce, unlike Leliana who knows perfectly well as a born-again Makerer that the official line is that the One Who Makes is on an extended Out To Lunch status and not about to issue edicts any time soon, as the Guardian pointed out to her... If the Maker exists in Gaider's imagination over Thedas, it must amuse itself greatly with such people purporting to be its spokespeople.

About your Joan of Arc = Andraste, I totally agree and mentioned that possibility earlier- sounds like a very strong parallel, and I hadn't recalled the relevance of that other aspect about how and why Joan was betrayed. The major difference would be that Joan never claimed to be her deity's love interest and nor was Joan married so as to be cheating on her mortal hubby. (Maferath could probably get an episode on this show... though Andraste could probably identify with this song...) Plus Andraste seems a bit of a splice of old Greek mythology where attractive mortal girls get "visited" by adoring deities, but aren't vain about it, no no no. Still, I'd rather recruit Andraste than Leliana any day!

Modifié par Bhryaen, 24 mai 2012 - 05:12 .

[gandanlin]

Leliana was the victim of torture (in Leliana's Song). So I suppose she may have become unbalanced by that experience. In a way, it would be remarkable if she weren't.

Interesting to read the responses to my reference to Joan of Arc. I suppose I was thinking in an uncritical, loose way of a national heroine whose singing inspires her companions to higher acts of valor and whose belief in God was of a very idiosyncratic sort. Probably I was thinking of some film portrayal or other of Joan of Arc.

Thanks for the interesting insights into the historical Joan of Arc.

Modifié par gandanlin, 25 mai 2012 - 09:48 .

[BouncyFrag]

We can all thank and give a round of applause for the obvious explanation of her resurrection: Space. Magic.
Yea, I went there.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

seren2 wrote...

Interesting post. I did not know you could kill off Leliana, I thought that she simply left if you defiled the ashes, which my characters did not do, except one, and she was psycho from the word go.

The gods part, well in the canon story, they are created beings as well, so the old gods do fit. It seems to echo the old D &D universe canon where Ao(sp?) was the original great god that made the others then checked out in disgust over the failures of his created beings.
I forget how many stories included the worshipers of Ao and stressed the fact Ao never responded to their prayers or anything else.

She can simply leave if you defile the ashes. She won't however, if she sees you do it. If she watches it happen, either you talk her down or she attacks. As for more than one character defiling the Ashes... well, what's the point if you already have the Reaver spec? I mean, it's not like the lizard-cult can be bothered to do anything else to help.

Ao, yeah, I guess. I thought it was reminicent of the Christian tendency to pray, not get an obvious answer, and not really get put down by it much. (Though that might have been what inspired Ao's behavior. For that matter, the whole "completely abandoning creation" thing doesn't seem like the Christian notion of God either: they preach a Second Coming thing.)

Would the Maker bring Leliana back from the dead?
Why not? Wynne has the revival spell, and can bring any party member back during combat, no matter how many pieces the darkspawn cut off.

Just saying....

The revival spell is supposed to work due to them... well, being only mostly dead. If anyone here remembers the Princess Bride scene where the hero's heart and lungs have stopped, but there's still some completely invisible spark of life left that the witch doctor can work with? That's why Wynne can bring them back: they're medically dead, but not metaphysically dead. It's not made clear how long this loophole remains open, however. Still, the Maker doesn't need loopholes... if he exists, which as Bhryaen correctly notes, is unclear. Ao, at least, performed one major miracle before he completely stopped paying attention. The Maker, on the other hand... well, either he's not paying attention, or he's having a laugh. (If God exists, one might say the same of him.)

I'd also mention that the party can simply recover from such things without magic: as I stated previously, things that ought to be lethal, simply don't kill the Warden's party, even without magical aid. If there is some magic from the Urn washing through Leiliana's body, that would help, but I don't know that it's neccesary.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 25 mai 2012 - 08:46 .

[Bhryaen]

Hanz54321 wrote...

Bhryaen - you write some detailed and interesting posts.
Have you ever respondedin 3 sentences or less?

Yes.

Will do on Leliana's DLC- just waiting for the right time to get interested...

[SiIencE]

I've never killed Leliana in any of my PT's, i assume it's the point where Kolgrim makes you an offer? I never took it because i just wouldn't.
I also never denied her from traveling with me when i meet her in Lothering (can you really?).
And i read somewhere that Leliana wasn't a 'seeker' but when you meet her for the first time and check her equipment she has a 'Seekers Amulet' or something.

But i always enjoyed having her around and fancied seeing her in DA2 again (with Isabela in the party if you did the 3some).

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

SiIencE wrote...

I've never killed Leliana in any of my PT's, i assume it's the point where Kolgrim makes you an offer? I never took it because i just wouldn't.
I also never denied her from traveling with me when i meet her in Lothering (can you really?).
And i read somewhere that Leliana wasn't a 'seeker' but when you meet her for the first time and check her equipment she has a 'Seekers Amulet' or something.

But i always enjoyed having her around and fancied seeing her in DA2 again (with Isabela in the party if you did the 3some).

My first playthrough, I didn't realize she was recruitable, and decided to skip the tavern when I realized Loghain had left thugs. So, I don't know about denying her to her face, but I do know she isn't necessary. (Damn good thing I was playing a rogue that time, though.)

My second playthrough was the one that I planned around having Leiliana in the party when I defiled the Ashes, and yet having her not try to kill me. (I also romanced her. You'd think she'd break it off, what with her never forgiving me and all. Not only didn't she, she also didn't make me sleep alone that night. )
As for her being a seeker, that's an organization she joined sometime during the plot of DA2. The Seeker's Amulet from DA:O (though locked to Leiliana) is unrelated, I'm not sure they even thought that far ahead when they named it.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 27 mai 2012 - 01:24 .

[SiIencE]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

SiIencE wrote...

I've never killed Leliana in any of my PT's, i assume it's the point where Kolgrim makes you an offer? I never took it because i just wouldn't.
I also never denied her from traveling with me when i meet her in Lothering (can you really?).
And i read somewhere that Leliana wasn't a 'seeker' but when you meet her for the first time and check her equipment she has a 'Seekers Amulet' or something.

But i always enjoyed having her around and fancied seeing her in DA2 again (with Isabela in the party if you did the 3some).

My first playthrough, I didn't realize she was recruitable, and decided to skip the tavern when I realized Loghain had left thugs. So, I don't know about denying her to her face, but I do know she isn't necessary. (Damn good thing I was playing a rogue that time, though.)

My second playthrough was the one that I planned around having Leiliana in the party when I defiled the Ashes, and yet having her not try to kill me. (I also romanced her. You'd think she'd break it off, what with her never forgiving me and all. Not only didn't she, she also didn't make me sleep alone that night. )
As for her being a seeker, that's an organization she joined sometime during the plot of DA2. The Seeker's Amulet from DA:O (though locked to Leiliana) is unrelated, I'm not sure they even thought that far ahead when they named it.

Well you would expect the story to be 'ready' and i mean the whole story before you start something, either BW didn't expect it to become such a succes (which would be unlikely seeing it took several years to develop and the amount of effort/love that went into the game)  Or someone decided to go with what they had at that time.

But yes you could be right, but seeing Leliana as a Seeker in DA2 kinda made me wonder she had to come up with an excuse to be able to join the Warden in DAO knowing who the Warden was and what happened at Ostegar as her duty to the 'Divine' or something. But taken in account that when you romance/join her on her travels and the Warden goes missing?! Well there's some holes here and there and DA2 didn't do anything to clear those up. (Leliana/Sister Nightingale also appears on Sebastians personal quest 'Faith' as a Seeker for the Divine). But who knows, i guess BW doesn't even know.

[Rinshikai]

Just thought I would give people a heads up, Leliana is not a Seeker. If you search the web you can find a discussion where David Gaider confirms that she is not a Seeker, just an agent from the divine.

http://social.biowar...index/8836283/1
this link is for a discussion on the topic.

[vortex216]

leliana is crazy, at least a little. but when you think about it, almost all of your other companions are too. about her coming back to life, she probably was just severley injured and crawled away

[Natureguy85]

Something I just thought of; was she always a seeker, even back in Origins, only pretending to be so ditzy? I don't think so, but I just had this cross my mind.

[Natureguy85]

Something I just thought of; was she always a seeker, even back in Origins, only pretending to be so ditzy? I don't think so, but I just had this cross my mind.

[caradoc2000]

Even if she was a pretender, at least she had the decency not to resurrect 2+ years old threads.

[qOjOp]

I am having the impression that Leliana... there's something "off" about her.