149 réponses à ce sujet

[wsandista]

GodWood wrote...

Semhaine wrote...

In our modern society, where you can't find the word "fantasy" without "dark" stuck right on there in front of it, or critics praising it for being "gritty" and "edgy" -- and the Dragon Age franchise falls under this category as well -- I'm getting a little tired of every fantasy epic having to be about rape, racism, and fun bloody, bloody decapitations. There's a difference between a dark atmosphere and mature themes and pure offensiveness. I personally think The Witcher falls in the latter division. I don't want more of The Witcher, especially not in my Dragon Age. Does the universe need to be more decisive on where it stands, thematically? Possibly. But I hope rape, excessive sex, and unnecessary violence just for the sake of tagging that "gritty" and "dark" in the description somewhere are not the future of Dragon Age.

Personally I'd rather a game set in a medeval setting to actually emulate the atmosphere and content of real medeval life. Meaning, there's rape, there's sex, there's violence and there's no clear cut good guys/bad guys.

You mean a complex world that doesn't gloss over the negative aspects? DAO had that somewhat, the Witcher did it excellently, DA2 failed. Hell NWN and NWN2 had a more realistic atmosphere than DA2.

[Issala]

wsandista wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Semhaine wrote...

In our modern society, where you can't find the word "fantasy" without "dark" stuck right on there in front of it, or critics praising it for being "gritty" and "edgy" -- and the Dragon Age franchise falls under this category as well -- I'm getting a little tired of every fantasy epic having to be about rape, racism, and fun bloody, bloody decapitations. There's a difference between a dark atmosphere and mature themes and pure offensiveness. I personally think The Witcher falls in the latter division. I don't want more of The Witcher, especially not in my Dragon Age. Does the universe need to be more decisive on where it stands, thematically? Possibly. But I hope rape, excessive sex, and unnecessary violence just for the sake of tagging that "gritty" and "dark" in the description somewhere are not the future of Dragon Age.

Personally I'd rather a game set in a medeval setting to actually emulate the atmosphere and content of real medeval life. Meaning, there's rape, there's sex, there's violence and there's no clear cut good guys/bad guys.

You mean a complex world that doesn't gloss over the negative aspects? DAO had that somewhat, the Witcher did it excellently, DA2 failed. Hell NWN and NWN2 had a more realistic atmosphere than DA2.

A world can be plenty complex and not gloss over the rough details without dwelling on them. DA:O pulled it off pretty well. Again, The Witcher is just offensive to me personally. Even if it's a fantastic game with a great story, and is realistic and hard-hitting, it's still offensive. I didn't play it because of this. I read the reviews and said, "No, this isn't for me." And I'd hate to have to give up the Dragon Age franchise because it's going the way of dark for the sake of being edgy and dark. Using the word "dark" loosely here, because I don't think it means what people seem to define it as.

[Homebound]

dragon age needs to be more like dragon age. I keep seeing this around the forums, where everyone keeps telling the devs DA needs to be like this or like that. Well ya know what? DA needs to be like DA. Instead of trying to make DA darker and edgier, I suggest figuring out what DA really IS.

[wsandista]

Semhaine wrote...

wsandista wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Semhaine wrote...

In our modern society, where you can't find the word "fantasy" without "dark" stuck right on there in front of it, or critics praising it for being "gritty" and "edgy" -- and the Dragon Age franchise falls under this category as well -- I'm getting a little tired of every fantasy epic having to be about rape, racism, and fun bloody, bloody decapitations. There's a difference between a dark atmosphere and mature themes and pure offensiveness. I personally think The Witcher falls in the latter division. I don't want more of The Witcher, especially not in my Dragon Age. Does the universe need to be more decisive on where it stands, thematically? Possibly. But I hope rape, excessive sex, and unnecessary violence just for the sake of tagging that "gritty" and "dark" in the description somewhere are not the future of Dragon Age.

Personally I'd rather a game set in a medeval setting to actually emulate the atmosphere and content of real medeval life. Meaning, there's rape, there's sex, there's violence and there's no clear cut good guys/bad guys.

You mean a complex world that doesn't gloss over the negative aspects? DAO had that somewhat, the Witcher did it excellently, DA2 failed. Hell NWN and NWN2 had a more realistic atmosphere than DA2.

A world can be plenty complex and not gloss over the rough details without dwelling on them. DA:O pulled it off pretty well. Again, The Witcher is just offensive to me personally. Even if it's a fantastic game with a great story, and is realistic and hard-hitting, it's still offensive. I didn't play it because of this. I read the reviews and said, "No, this isn't for me." And I'd hate to have to give up the Dragon Age franchise because it's going the way of dark for the sake of being edgy and dark. Using the word "dark" loosely here, because I don't think it means what people seem to define it as.

Wait, you're criticizing a game for being offensive that YOU HAVEN'T EVEN PLAYED!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Maybe you should actually play the game and see what it is like before condemning it.

Modifié par wsandista, 28 mai 2012 - 01:23 .

[Issala]

Yeah, I knew someone would call me out on that one. And, usually, that's what I'd do. I'm not one for condemning something before testing it out, not normally. But when it comes to certain areas, I'm not going to try it out. Let me try to phrase this in a diplomatic way. And maybe think of a good metaphor. I don't want to play a game I know is not really all that clean -- putting it nicely -- to know that it's not going to be all that clean. I'm simply not going to go there. For the same reason you don't shoot yourself in the foot so you can know that it's going to be bad for you. I don't play games like The Witcher. To be blunt, it's against my moral standards. And, yeah, I know that makes me sound like a prude. I had a hard time justifying buying Dragon Age:Origins as it is. If it gets any more violent, dark -- whatever -- than it already is, then I'll be stuck playing games from the early 2000s, like I'd been doing for the past seven years before finally being allowed to get rated M games in through the door.

Modifié par Semhaine, 28 mai 2012 - 01:33 .

[Issala]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

Everybody should play the games they want to play for the reasons they have to want to play them.

This is how I feel/think about that. Nothing wrong with how you think and the choises you make in the games you want to play.

Just be you and others will be them . There are games for every taste out there.

Well now I feel all warm and fuzzy inside. For what it's worth, thanks for that.

[MerchantGOL]

GodWood wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...

mr_luga wrote...
They should be taking tips from The Witcher

Grimdark for the sake of being grimdark?

nothanks

Examples pl0x.

No mater what descion  i made i feel like i made the world worse as well as a way to liberal use of rape for my tastes.

DA:O and  DA2 had a perfectly fine dark atmosphear with out feeling like there was no god damn hope to make things better.

Modifié par MerchantGOL, 28 mai 2012 - 04:33 .

[1varangian]

Yes.. and the silly combat animations should be the first to be axed to achieve a darker and more believable feel.

[SafetyShattered]

THE WITCHER!!!!!! Seriously. The darker atmosphere of that game is absolutely perfect.

[Uccio]

Semhaine wrote...

A world can be plenty complex and not gloss over the rough details without dwelling on them. DA:O pulled it off pretty well. Again, The Witcher is just offensive to me personally. Even if it's a fantastic game with a great story, and is realistic and hard-hitting, it's still offensive. I didn't play it because of this. I read the reviews and said, "No, this isn't for me." And I'd hate to have to give up the Dragon Age franchise because it's going the way of dark for the sake of being edgy and dark. Using the word "dark" loosely here, because I don't think it means what people seem to define it as.

If you are not going to play TW2 I can safely say you are missing out a LOT. I mean this game has actually that "real life" desperation in it, it presents the world of violence and rasism so well that you will feel a part of it. And in a way understand why it is, even it would make you angry how other races are treated. I myself sided with the minorites in all of my playthroughs (except one) and it felt thorougly satisfying in doing so. The game gave me the experince I was looking for in full.

I hope DA team can catch even a piece of that feeling.

[AkiKishi]

Ukki wrote...

Semhaine wrote...

A world can be plenty complex and not gloss over the rough details without dwelling on them. DA:O pulled it off pretty well. Again, The Witcher is just offensive to me personally. Even if it's a fantastic game with a great story, and is realistic and hard-hitting, it's still offensive. I didn't play it because of this. I read the reviews and said, "No, this isn't for me." And I'd hate to have to give up the Dragon Age franchise because it's going the way of dark for the sake of being edgy and dark. Using the word "dark" loosely here, because I don't think it means what people seem to define it as.

If you are not going to play TW2 I can safely say you are missing out a LOT. I mean this game has actually that "real life" desperation in it, it presents the world of violence and rasism so well that you will feel a part of it. And in a way understand why it is, even it would make you angry how other races are treated. I myself sided with the minorites in all of my playthroughs (except one) and it felt thorougly satisfying in doing so. The game gave me the experince I was looking for in full.

I hope DA team can catch even a piece of that feeling.

Witcher 2 is amazing and a lot of that is because it's not trying to view a medivel world through a modern prism.
It may deal with things people may rather not acknowledge or ignore, but I think offensive is extreme.Shocking yes, offensive? Don't see how.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 29 mai 2012 - 10:11 .

[Sajji]

It's hard to take Dragon Age seriously at times. World atmosphere in DA2 was shallow, lacking detail or vibe, and very dull and predictable.

It's not dark fantasy. Either that, or I simply prefer fantasy horror over so-called 'dark fantasy'.

Dark Souls had many gorgeous areas. Firelink Shrine, Darkroot Garden (the Moonlight Butterfly was absolutely beautiful), and Anor Londo.

Of course, it had horrific areas of decay, filth and rotteness also, ones that actually were legitimate and full of thick atmosphere so well done one could feel the oppression of just seeing no sunlight for a while. The Depths are an example of this, and enemy challenge and possibility of instant death while discovering new creatures played heavily into that. There has never been a stronger feeling of dark, rotten filth ever in any environment in any game ever.

So it flows together beautifully.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Seriously?
I would be happy with NWN 3, founded on Bioware cliche.

I don't want rape and nudity in my game to be serious and dark.
Just do it right .. no rushing, put good textures and atmosphere, enough dialogue option and difficult moral dilemmas.

[Sajji]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

Sajji wrote...

It's hard to take Dragon Age seriously at times. World atmosphere in DA2 was shallow, lacking detail or vibe, and very dull and predictable.

It's not dark fantasy. Either that, or I simply prefer fantasy horror over so-called 'dark fantasy'.

Dark Souls had many gorgeous areas. Firelink Shrine, Darkroot Garden (the Moonlight Butterfly was absolutely beautiful), and Anor Londo.

Of course, it had horrific areas of decay, filth and rotteness also, ones that actually were legitimate and full of thick atmosphere so well done one could feel the oppression of just seeing no sunlight for a while. The Depths are an example of this, and enemy challenge and possibility of instant death while discovering new creatures played heavily into that. There has never been a stronger feeling of dark, rotten filth ever in any environment in any game ever.

So it flows together beautifully.

Guess it al depends in what your definition of 'dark' is. As I understand from your post the biggest problem you have with DA2 are the environments. I agree they look pretty 'clean' in DA2, to much for my taste too.

But the subjects handled in DA are dark enough imo. There are moral choises to be made and there are demons and spirits that do not have the best intentions f.e. All which are elements of a dark fantasy.

Gave the example before in another thread but the PS1 game Koudelka is a good example for a gothic horror fantasy game that has the elements you would like to see I think.

I agree with that. And I'm not saying completely replace or remove those things in any way, shape or form. I would agree too that it is the environments...but not just the environments. Its hard to describe. One would have to see and understand Dark Souls' atmopshere, then envision writing and characterization to fit in smoothly with that atmopshere without compromising it, but enhancing it.

Dragon Age, I think, could really benefit from taking itself more seriously

[rapscallioness]

I...don't want to see BW games go the horror route. If they do, I'd have to put them down.

That's not me trying to boycott anything, or make some kinda stand. I just really don't like horror.

I can deal with blood and Some gore. But if they start having detailed, mangled body parts floating around in some swamp that I have to walk through...ugh..I'll have to take the game back. Lol...I can't do it.

Now, I can understand wanting the atmospheres to be be "darker" in artistic rendering. When appropriate. But I'd also like to have some bright beautiful places.

[brushyourteeth]

This has probably already been said before, but I feel like DA at least needs to be dark in the places/situations where it's appropriate for it to be dark.

... like Darktown, which was supposed to be this stinking, crowded, disease-infested underground sytem of sewer tunnels full of society's rejects who either couldn't or wouldn't rejoin the rest of Kirkwall society on the surface. Instead it had sunlight streaming into it even at night and you were lucky to have ten NPC's in the same map. The alienages are actually some of the most pleasant places in each city. Compared to Denerim (which is kind of shabby for a capital city) and Lowtown, (which is already pretty rundown) both alienages seem like pretty pleasant neighborhoods to live in with their big decorate trees and absence of noisy merchants. So when NPC's point out how gross they are I'm left scratching my head.

Only the haunted orphanage and the broodmother area of the Deep Roads in DA:O really felt like they were appropriately dark and creepy to me. I'm a big baby when it comes to creepy (I stayed awake all night to avoid nightmares after my first broodmother encounter) but even I'm not satisfied with just being told "this place is scary" or "this place is dangerous" or "it sucks to live here." You have to show me.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 30 mai 2012 - 04:28 .

[rapscallioness]

Lol at the Alienage being all horrible. I thought I was the only one that was like...wha..?

I didn't see it either. It seemed rather pleasant. Although, there wasn't much to it. It was one big circle w/ a gorgeous tree in the middle. That was it.

In DA:O the Alienage was more rundown, but everything was pretty run down. There seemed only a small difference.

DustTown in Orzammar was pretty good. Wouldn't have hurt it none to have a few more dark brush strokes going through it. But in comparison to the rest of Orz. it was far more colorless.

The whole Orzammar story was my favorite from DA:O. I loved that storyline. Loved the whole area.

[Mclouvins]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

Must admitt, have not played Dark Souls, but think I know where you are getting at regarding 'the whole picture'. It's also about the way the MC profiles him/her self in the game.The music you hear and how NPC's react to you if you play a 'dark' game. And the environment needs to include real dark in terms of 'night'. For you the whole thing needs to be more 'gritty' and foul in a way. More explicit maybe? This is how you see a dark fantasy imo. And you have every right to see it that way. Opinions differ on that matter and if that what I think is your opinion that is absolutely fine with me.

I haven't played Dark Souls either but I did play Demon Souls which was an extremely lonely game, from what I've seen Dark Souls may be less so but by and large is the same in that regard. That can contribute to making the setting feel somehow dark a great deal. There are lonely side-scrolling platformers that can feel dark with the right atmosphere. The Dragon Age games have been by and large dark thematically which is what Bioware seems to be going for. It's pretty much a somewhat simpliefied forgotten realms setting with darker overtures. There's racial tension between humans and elves while not as violent as the tension with the Witcher elves the conflicts are there nontheless. Some of the environments should probably be changed somewhat, the alienages in particular should probably be more ramshackle than they already are, but at the same time they don't seem to be aiming for a world that is so dark and hopeless that fancy Orlesian parties would feel out of place.

Personally I feel that thinking of Dragon Age as a "dark fantasy" is fundamentally flawed and what it really should be regarded as is a sort of high fantasy with dark tendencies.

[brushyourteeth]

Haha, yeah sjpelkessjpeler I'm glad I'm not the only one!
Merrill's apartment was super roomy and nice. It was actually bigger than Varric's room at the Hanged Man! And I'd take it over Aveline's bunk at the barracks any day.
You're right about Dust Town. I think it was really the sounds of people coughing and retching in the background that sold me (I can't help but go "Bleghh!" loudly along with the sounds when I replay that area - LOL!).  I really just miss being a dwarf.