149 réponses à ce sujet

[Issala]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Ukki wrote...

Semhaine wrote...

A world can be plenty complex and not gloss over the rough details without dwelling on them. DA:O pulled it off pretty well. Again, The Witcher is just offensive to me personally. Even if it's a fantastic game with a great story, and is realistic and hard-hitting, it's still offensive. I didn't play it because of this. I read the reviews and said, "No, this isn't for me." And I'd hate to have to give up the Dragon Age franchise because it's going the way of dark for the sake of being edgy and dark. Using the word "dark" loosely here, because I don't think it means what people seem to define it as.

If you are not going to play TW2 I can safely say you are missing out a LOT. I mean this game has actually that "real life" desperation in it, it presents the world of violence and rasism so well that you will feel a part of it. And in a way understand why it is, even it would make you angry how other races are treated. I myself sided with the minorites in all of my playthroughs (except one) and it felt thorougly satisfying in doing so. The game gave me the experince I was looking for in full.

I hope DA team can catch even a piece of that feeling.

Witcher 2 is amazing and a lot of that is because it's not trying to view a medivel world through a modern prism.
It may deal with things people may rather not acknowledge or ignore, but I think offensive is extreme.Shocking yes, offensive? Don't see how.

I can appreciate that. Convoluted moralities, grey areas, any game that can make the player think and especially influence their emotions is obviously well-written. It's the "world of violence" part that I have problems with. Racism I have more than enough of where I live in the real life. And it's ugly, yes.
Offensive is extreme. From what I've read, and what people have posted, it is an extreme game -- I say this as someone who had never picked up a rated M game until the late December of last year. As I stated before, excessive rape and violence are offensive. Or they should be. Even if it's just in a pixellated world that isn't real, it's still not something that I want to see. I don't care if it's an engrossing, realistic depiction of the horrors of medieval life. It's still a lot of gratuitous sex scenes, rape, violence, and foul language.

[AkiKishi]

Semhaine wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Ukki wrote...

Semhaine wrote...

A world can be plenty complex and not gloss over the rough details without dwelling on them. DA:O pulled it off pretty well. Again, The Witcher is just offensive to me personally. Even if it's a fantastic game with a great story, and is realistic and hard-hitting, it's still offensive. I didn't play it because of this. I read the reviews and said, "No, this isn't for me." And I'd hate to have to give up the Dragon Age franchise because it's going the way of dark for the sake of being edgy and dark. Using the word "dark" loosely here, because I don't think it means what people seem to define it as.

If you are not going to play TW2 I can safely say you are missing out a LOT. I mean this game has actually that "real life" desperation in it, it presents the world of violence and rasism so well that you will feel a part of it. And in a way understand why it is, even it would make you angry how other races are treated. I myself sided with the minorites in all of my playthroughs (except one) and it felt thorougly satisfying in doing so. The game gave me the experince I was looking for in full.

I hope DA team can catch even a piece of that feeling.

Witcher 2 is amazing and a lot of that is because it's not trying to view a medivel world through a modern prism.
It may deal with things people may rather not acknowledge or ignore, but I think offensive is extreme.Shocking yes, offensive? Don't see how.

I can appreciate that. Convoluted moralities, grey areas, any game that can make the player think and especially influence their emotions is obviously well-written. It's the "world of violence" part that I have problems with. Racism I have more than enough of where I live in the real life. And it's ugly, yes.
Offensive is extreme. From what I've read, and what people have posted, it is an extreme game -- I say this as someone who had never picked up a rated M game until the late December of last year. As I stated before, excessive rape and violence are offensive. Or they should be. Even if it's just in a pixellated world that isn't real, it's still not something that I want to see. I don't care if it's an engrossing, realistic depiction of the horrors of medieval life. It's still a lot of gratuitous sex scenes, rape, violence, and foul language.

Try Runefactory, or if you don't care for combat Harvest Moon both are very upbeat happy games. The latest Runefactory was what I played after Witcher2 (you can play as a girl, but you need to finish the game as a boy first,it's sort of explained in the story).

[Issala]

Because I'm obviously an avid lover of happy farming games.
Which is why I'm here, you know. To advertise my passion for farming. And cheerful Anime children.

[Ellestor]

I love Dark Souls, but I think that's going too far for this setting's norm. Dark Souls is like a metal band lyricist's fever dream.

Modifié par Ellestor, 30 mai 2012 - 06:22 .

[Realmzmaster]

I find it interesting that gamers want to pick and choose their realism. As far as the Witcher is concerned (and yes I have played both games) it simply picks and chooses it realism like every other cRPG. Where are the people dying in the streets (which happened in real medieval life)? Weapons that break? Weather has no real effect in the game. No one in the Witcher changes clothes because of the weather. You see people run from the rain but that is it.

The Witcher can walk through a downpour and will be as dry as if it were a sunny day. No concern for food and water. It is simply assumed even when crossing a vast distance that in both DAO and the Witcher that you never run out of food. At least in DA2 there was a reason since everything occurred around Kirkwall.

Other cRPGs (like the Alternate Reality series) actually took weather, food and water into consideration. You could die from starvation or thirst, even before then your attributes and ability to fight would be affected.
If your party did not have the proper attire for the weather the party got cold or hot could die of heat stroke or freeze to death.

If you got a disease or poisoned you had to go to a healer. Disease and poison could render the party member unconscious and the party member could die. Death was permanent.

If you want a darker more serious atmosphere make death permanent. If a gamer chooses to reload that is their choice. If the main character dies then it is game over you have to reload. If a party member dies you have a choice to reload or continue without the member.

I want to see weapons that break and spells that can miscast.Get rid of attacks like arrow of slaying or whirlwind. Any arrow that pierces heart, head or a vital organ can be an arrow of slaying.

The question is how much realism do you want and how dark/serious do you want to make the atmosphere?

[brushyourteeth]

Realmzmaster wrote...

I find it interesting that gamers want to pick and choose their realism. As far as the Witcher is concerned (and yes I have played both games) it simply picks and chooses it realism like every other cRPG. Where are the people dying in the streets (which happened in real medieval life)? Weapons that break? Weather has no real effect in the game. No one in the Witcher changes clothes because of the weather. You see people run from the rain but that is it.

The Witcher can walk through a downpour and will be as dry as if it were a sunny day. No concern for food and water. It is simply assumed even when crossing a vast distance that in both DAO and the Witcher that you never run out of food. At least in DA2 there was a reason since everything occurred around Kirkwall.

Other cRPGs (like the Alternate Reality series) actually took weather, food and water into consideration. You could die from starvation or thirst, even before then your attributes and ability to fight would be affected.
If your party did not have the proper attire for the weather the party got cold or hot could die of heat stroke or freeze to death.

If you got a disease or poisoned you had to go to a healer. Disease and poison could render the party member unconscious and the party member could die. Death was permanent.

If you want a darker more serious atmosphere make death permanent. If a gamer chooses to reload that is their choice. If the main character dies then it is game over you have to reload. If a party member dies you have a choice to reload or continue without the member.

I want to see weapons that break and spells that can miscast.Get rid of attacks like arrow of slaying or whirlwind. Any arrow that pierces heart, head or a vital organ can be an arrow of slaying.

The question is how much realism do you want and how dark/serious do you want to make the atmosphere?

I think the OP meant realism as it relates to the condition of the human heart and the suffering our choices and those of a corrupt society can cause.

Not realism as in like.... I have to take a pee break.

Though you make a good point.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 30 mai 2012 - 07:14 .

[Realmzmaster]

brushyourteeth wrote...


I think the OP meant realism as it relates to the condition of the human heart and the suffering our choices and those of a corrupt society can cause.

Not realism as in like.... I have to take a pee break.

Though you make a good point.

I understand what the OP is looking for, but how more serious can you get than permanent death? One reason I liked DA2 is because Hawke did not get to save the day. Death was real for those around Hawke. I would have like to see party members being able to die. Anders makes a statement when putting out milk to attract cats that the refugees may have eaten them all. But you do not get to see it, but it happened in medieval life along with other animals if necessary. The Witcher also does not show that level of desperation.  Where is all the pestilence and disease that was rampant during that time?
The question I ask is how real do you want to get in a fantasy game?

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 30 mai 2012 - 11:34 .

[Vormaerin]

Semhaine wrote...

I don't care if it's an engrossing, realistic depiction of the horrors of medieval life.

Which its not, anyway.   The main difference is war is more of a factor in the lives of most folk that it is in the modern west, especially the US.   And there's more wealthy people in the West these days.

Semhaine wrote...

It's still a lot of
gratuitous sex scenes, rape, violence, and foul language.

This is at least as true of modern life as it is of medieval life, it not more so.   Its also pretty unnecessary in a video game.  You can have a dark atmosphere without any of this stuff.  In fact, it can often have the opposite effect the way its presented in video games.

[Samuel_Valkyrie]

As a student of literature, let me point out to you the Shakespeare tragedies.

For those who have enver read any of the tragedies: They are actually pretty funny.

Let me explain: Shakespeare new, better than most, that the core of the tragedy is the downfall. The higher you rise, the harder you fall. Translated to the emotional spectrum: laughter makes an emotional rise, tragedy a fall. If you analyze Shakespeare's plays, you will find that his comedies and tragedies are actually, in emotional build-up (so, where the highs and lows are), for the first part virtually identical to eachother. There are crude jokes, weird circumstances, wittiness, etc. However, somewhere along the line, in the tragedies, something goes wrong. This is the point of no return: up to this point, things could have been fixed, but now, it's all going downhill from here. Tybalt's death in Romeo and Juliet is such a moment. Whatever happened before could be fixed, but after Tybalt's death, things escalate.

My point is: a story isn't build on setting, or genre, or whatever: it's build on the emotional rollercoaster ride the writer gives the audience. And, in fact, happy moments give a stronger, starker contrast to the moments of darkness and tragedy, and these happy moments only serve to emphasize the emotional turmoil during the tragedy.

In short: Making it 'darker' only serves to contrast the happier moments, not the darker ones, and those touch us far more deeply.

[Sylvianus]

Meh. It's a debate, i know but I think some should really play games that have a more serious atmosphere, darker, with " bad events " before they assume the worst, I really feel that you say NO, because your imagination is actually based on nothing concrete with words thrown like violence , sex,, so you imagine the worst. Do not want. In dragon age II we do see Hawk cutting the throat of a man, or the genocide against the mages at the end.... That is violence and yet it didn't bother you.

I've seen many people who said many things bad about the witcher 2 and ooooh, they changed their mind after playing it. ( Okay, myself included ) I know it is easy to be impressed when we see those words, sex, violence.

I've tried the witcher 2 and I felt it was really immersive, and realistic. And especially serious and mature. I loved how this game took me for an adult, and respected my intelligence.  After having played this game, I am more convinced than ever, that a world based on political correctness actually is just nonsense and ridiculous, for a game meant to be mature. But I can deal with however. I'm certain that this strategy will be less and less supported anyways.

 I think the strategy of the witcher 2 is going to pay and cdj project will become more and more loved if they do show the same creativity and passion in the future. People and Bioware's fans will be playing their games and they will realize more and more how some things of bioware seem childish on the opposite. " For example, when they fear to show nudity in the final romance and instead we see people making love with underwear. * faceplam *

Yeah, after the witcher 2, I realized many things about the last bioware's games... Bioware /EA is in decline... They need to wake up, and they need especially to show more love to their fans and their customers, because well, it isn't good at all currently. I've never seen so many people negative about bioware, and I'm not talking about the bsn.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 31 mai 2012 - 02:59 .

[Vormaerin]

Just what do you mean by the Witcher treated you as an adult? I don't recall anything that seemed especially 'adult treating' compared to other games?

Unless you mean "adult" in the "adult video" sense? Frankly, that tends to strike me more as a play for the immature end of the market. Though not nearly as ridiculous as the sex cards from the first one. That was some serious juvenile design. Might have been even more lame than Bioware's "super gore" motif for DA.

[Lasien]

I know this will probably ****** some people off, but I just watched the opening cinematic from dark souls, and I really don't see much difference in the tones of the games. The only real difference I see between DA and DS is that the graphics are much better in DS. The worlds that the games occur in are equally dark.

I would like to say that DA:O and DA2 were both on par storywise - what I mean to say is that the story being presented was good in both games. However, it wasn't presented as well in DA2. Also, I liked the art style of DA2, but it would have been loads better if they had done what they claimed and based off of rembrant's painting style (or at least I think it was rembrant). When I read the article that this attempt was mentioned in, I was excited, but i the actual game, it seemed like they forgot the shadows to go along with the "light-saturated" world.

[Lasien]

Sylvianus wrote...

Meh. It's a debate, i know but I think some should really play games that have a more serious atmosphere, darker, with " bad events " before they assume the worst, I really feel that you say NO, because your imagination is actually based on nothing concrete with words thrown like violence , sex,, so you imagine the worst. Do not want. In dragon age II we do see Hawk cutting the throat of a man, or the genocide against the mages at the end.... That is violence and yet it didn't bother you.

What exactly do you mean by "serious, darker, and bad events"? There were plenty of "bad events" in both DA games, they just didn't always have the impact they should have because the graphics engines really need updated.

After having played this game, I am more convinced than ever, that a world based on political correctness actually is just nonsense and ridiculous, for a game meant to be mature. But I can deal with however. I'm certain that this strategy will be less and less supported anyways.

I do agree with you on that point. Political correctness will only be successful up to a certain point. Writing should take precedence.

People and Bioware's fans will be playing their games and they will realize more and more how some things of bioware seem childish on the opposite. " For example, when they fear to show nudity in the final romance and instead we see people making love with underwear. * faceplam *

Nudity should not be a requirement to make something sexy or mature. Likewise, blood and gore shouldn't be neccessary to make something violent or dark. Those scenes were really just badly done.

[Sylvianus]

Adult ? everything : The story, no good against the evil, we see racism, sexism, the atmosphere, the realistic medevial world with its violence, its tragedy, its prostitutes, the characterization of some characters,  cutscenes that do not hide anything as if I was a child. Something that doesn't give a **** about political correctness, only creativity. This world with his good and bad sides feels finally real, it gives you, it tells you a story by itself. This is what I mean.

Sex cards ? I don't know what are you talking about. I didn't play the witcher 1. Only the witcher 2 on xbox. There 's sex, yes, but it isn't something I see as something bad, and never I will think this in any format, either in a book like game of throne, or a movie or a game, especially in a medieval world. I do not really respect that kind of Puritan opinion when someone is upset because he sees a naked body or sex. That is just borring. A medieval world, yes there a lot of sex, it isn't shocking for me, rather it sticks to the reality.

But nudity isn't something I see as necessary however. Just need to be well done and I'll be happy. But please, no more romance scene with underwear, or then, just before they make love.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 31 mai 2012 - 03:54 .

[AkiKishi]

Lasien wrote...
Nudity should not be a requirement to make something sexy or mature. Likewise, blood and gore shouldn't be neccessary to make something violent or dark. Those scenes were really just badly done.

In an 18 rated game why not?

Why would a game have 18 rated violence like over the top blood spatter, and PG13 sex ? 

Just a general FYI CDPR's new game is "cyberpunk" (based on 2020 pnp for anyone who knows what it is). Expect near future dark this time around Witcher meets Deus Ex.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 31 mai 2012 - 09:18 .

[Uccio]

Semhaine wrote...

Because I'm obviously an avid lover of happy farming games.
Which is why I'm here, you know. To advertise my passion for farming. And cheerful Anime children.

Hahhah, made me chuckle . But I still think you are missing out.

[Uccio]

Realmzmaster wrote...


*snip*
The question is how much realism do you want and how dark/serious do you want to make the atmosphere?

Well, to be honest I would also like to have all the things you mentioned but I am certain that Bio will claim that it consts too much to go that deep into realism. Heck, they already said that "iconic look" is the way to go since other options are too expensive(?). Go figure.

[Uccio]

Vormaerin wrote...

Semhaine wrote...

It's still a lot of
gratuitous sex scenes, rape, violence, and foul language.

This is at least as true of modern life as it is of medieval life, it not more so.   Its also pretty unnecessary in a video game.  You can have a dark atmosphere without any of this stuff.  In fact, it can often have the opposite effect the way its presented in video games.

I don´t know. Sitting with the dwarfs around the table at the tavern drinking and talking sh*t had a really "real" mood in it. Nothing DA2 could achieve.

[Uccio]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Lasien wrote...
Nudity should not be a requirement to make something sexy or mature. Likewise, blood and gore shouldn't be neccessary to make something violent or dark. Those scenes were really just badly done.

In an 18 rated game why not?

Why would a game have 18 rated violence like over the top blood spatter, and PG13 sex ? 

Must be american thing. Violence, Gore, blood, severel limbs, murder, necromancy: cool/ok. Nudity= Oh Noes! I can see his/hers ...! OMG!

[AkiKishi]

Ukki wrote...
I don´t know. Sitting with the dwarfs around the table at the tavern drinking and talking sh*t had a really "real" mood in it. Nothing DA2 could achieve.

"Let one human in and you get a swarm".
"Humans are strange....." (that one cracks me up)

[Tirigon]

Lasien wrote...

Nudity should not be a requirement to make something sexy or mature. Likewise, blood and gore shouldn't be neccessary to make something violent or dark. Those scenes were really just badly done.

But they are. Graphic violence IS a requirement for a dark atmosphere, just implying it doesnt do the trick - if it did, Disney cartoons would be rated 18 or even outlawed, what with Donald Duck shooting himself with a shotgun practically every time.



And it's the same thing with novels by the way. That's why Martin describing rape and torture in "A Song of Ice and Fire" makes it a hard and serious story, whereas Tolkien's depiction of orcs being cruel and elves being good is more like a children's story, even if a billion people are slaughtered and the entire land ravaged.

Modifié par Tirigon, 31 mai 2012 - 09:48 .

[AudioEpics]

God no! If there's anything I'm profoundly sick of, it's how everything has to be "dark" and especially "mature" these days in fantasy. I absolutely despise that trend. It usually means downtrodden characters, social problems, sexual violence, racism, yadda yadda ya. The real world's got enough of that garbage. To me whenever I see that it feels like the writers are trying to apologize for the fact that they're writing fantasy. Like they're ashamed of it. I'm not saying fantasy should just be pure escapism, but I long for something with some genuine beauty and a warm heart. And yes, it needs darkness too, but it shouldn't be all about that. I'd love to see a return to the style of the Baldur's Gate games when it comes to that.

[Realmzmaster]

Tirigon wrote...

Lasien wrote...

Nudity should not be a requirement to make something sexy or mature. Likewise, blood and gore shouldn't be neccessary to make something violent or dark. Those scenes were really just badly done.

But they are. Graphic violence IS a requirement for a dark atmosphere, just implying it doesnt do the trick - if it did, Disney cartoons would be rated 18 or even outlawed, what with Donald Duck shooting himself with a shotgun practically every time.



And it's the same thing with novels by the way. That's why Martin describing rape and torture in "A Song of Ice and Fire" makes it a hard and serious story, whereas Tolkien's depiction of orcs being cruel and elves being good is more like a children's story, even if a billion people are slaughtered and the entire land ravaged.

Actually Daffy Duck, Bugs Bunny etc were never intended for children. Those cartoons were originally shown before the main feature in a movie theater which was for adults. THe cartoons also dealt with racism and other adult themes while making adults laugh. Also most of the watchers of Saturday morning cartoons were not children. Cartoons also appeared in primetime like the Simpsons and Family guy which also are not aimed at children. 

There was a marketing reason why those cartoons were shown on Saturday, Sunday or primetime. Most parents and adults did not work on Saturday or Sunday and children were not at school. The family could then watch the movie together and mom or dad could explain why it was impossible in real life for Daffy not to blow off his foot or the Road Runner defying gravity. 

Disney movies also deal with adult themes. The Princess and the Frog dealt with voodoo which is why it is rated PG13+. The Lion KIng shows Scar loosening Mufasa's grip after Mufasa saves Simba. Mufasa falls back into the herd of stampeding antelope. Do we have to see the mangled bloody body to know what happened? No you do not. Snow White and the Seven Dwarf pulls off a darker atmosphere than many video games it does not involve gore.

The Abominable Dr. Phibes is a far superior movie to SAW (which rip offs Phibes) and has virtually no gore. The storytelling is the key. It does not matter how much gore or violence a game or movie has that will not make it mature or dark. Gore or violence for the sake of gore or violence is not necessary. Graphic violence is not a requirement for a dark atmosphere. Excellent storytelling is.