274 réponses à ce sujet

[Drummernate]

Xaijin wrote...


Wrong. That's kinda the problem with forming opinions without having tested them long term under multiple sets of conditions.

I use the Sentinel for promoting...

I use him all the time, and test every possible build pretty much.

First shot takes it to 55%... second to like 5%... and then the last one breaks the shield gate.

When using level III modulators it is even less.

Maybe you are talking about a Turian Sentinel?

Modifié par Drummernate, 23 mai 2012 - 02:04 .

[Xaijin]

Nope. Like I said, maybe you need to test under a full barrage in stunlock with more than one geth.

And amps aren't really part of the equation, nor should they be, as sticking the same amps on a vanguard will simply make your position even less tenable.

[GodlessPaladin]

ManixEther wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

ManixEther wrote...

Atheosis wrote...

ManixEther wrote...

While I appreciate the Bat Sent's (my favorite class) buffs, submission net is still terrible. The only use I have for it is against Phantoms, and you have to set it up on the ground for it to even hit them. They've walked over my net many times, so a proper buff/fix would be increasing the area of the trap activation. Why would anyone use submission net over shockwave for stunning troops when they dodge it 90% of the time (with an 8 second base cooldown to boot!)?

Why would anyone use Shockwave since it only really affects shieldless targets?

Because it does decent damage, briefly stuns shielded targets which can lead to a safer falcon paunch, detonates tech bursts, stuns ATLASES, and has great aoe. You have not used shockwave much, have you? Why would I use submission net when I know the enemy is going to dodge it 50% of the time, when I can just shockwave->headshot/paunch surf?

Batarian Soldier with Inferno Grenades and Ballistic Blades

I'm aware that the soldier is a lot better than the sentinel. I'm just giving him reasons on why spamming shockwave is better than the net. I'm not comparing the sentinel to any other class, so I don't see the point of bringing in the Batarian soldier (unless I'm missing the point).

I'm just taking your point a step further.  Submission Net is so bad that it's a subpar choice on a class full of underwhelming options

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 23 mai 2012 - 02:11 .

[Drummernate]

Xaijin wrote...

Nope. Like I said, maybe you need to test under a full barrage in stunlock with more than one geth.

And amps aren't really part of the equation, nor should they be, as sticking the same amps on a vanguard will simply make your position even less tenable.

Seeing as sticking a cyclonic modulator on a Vanguard is nearly pointless because they expend all or most of their shields to get their primary invincibility frames... I don't see how that works out.

Have people forgotten that Tech Armor has some short invincibility frames too?...

[JackGradus]

YEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

...

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh, sweet, sweet Tech Armor. It's like coming home after a long trip to find your girlfriend all svelte and waiting in your bedroo- no, no, I'll stop. I'm good.

[Xaijin]

Also wrong, since the vanguard can further press into mobs or take on a larger mob from a further distance, particularly with half nova and then repeat with a cancel into charge again, pretty much the text book definition of tanking; aggro into a group, press damage to engage, and then either move to further target to escape or continue to harass if back up is also damaging the mob.

Krogan sentinel can do exactly none of those things near as well or with as much utility or speed, the best you can manage is a drive by detonation, which you could have facilitated with grenades to begin with.

Modifié par Xaijin, 23 mai 2012 - 02:22 .

[Feneckus]

Drummernate wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

And amps aren't really part of the equation, nor should they be, as sticking the same amps on a vanguard will simply make your position even less tenable.

Seeing as sticking a cyclonic modulator on a Vanguard is nearly pointless because they expend all or most of their shields to get their primary invincibility frames... I don't see how that works out.

Shield power cells ...

[Drummernate]

Feneckus wrote...

 I find it hard to believe that some people on the bioware forums game designers do not know what a tank is.

Fixed.

Tiger II

^ That is a real tank.

The Tiger II was never recorded to be penetrated from the front by any tank during the war, it had the devastating L/71 which was later upgraded to an L/68 (Sounds like a downgrade... but German's had weird gun naming methods, it actually went from 8.8cm to 10.5cm) and its only fault was that it had a terrible transmission and was slow. The only way the Allies took it out was by tracking it and then hitting from the rear or sides with bazookas or sticky grenades.

They planned to upgrade it to a new version called the E-75 which improved on every aspect, but the war ended and it was scrapped.

Tanks should be able to take and dish out insane amounts of damage, but be extremely slow compared to other classes.

/Tanker rant

Modifié par Drummernate, 23 mai 2012 - 04:43 .

[Bobkyou]

Drummernate wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

 I find it hard to believe that some people on the bioware forums game designers do not know what a tank is.

Fixed.



^ That is a real tank.

The Tiger II was never recorded to be penetrated from the front by any tank during the war, it had the devastating L/71 which was later upgraded to an L/68 (Sounds like a downgrade... but German's had weird gun naming methods, it actually went from 8.8cm to 10.5cm) and its only fault was that it had a terrible transmission and was slow. The only way the Allies took it out was by tracking it and then hitting from the rear or sides with bazookas or sticky grenades.

They planned to upgrade it to a new version called the E-75 which improved on every aspect, but the war ended and it was scrapped.

Tanks should be able to take and dish out insane amounts of damage, but be extremely slow compared to other classes.

Actually a real tank is something that is used to store liquid.  But you see, language changes over time.  Just as the word tank has come to be known as a heavy vehicle of destruction, the word tank when used in regards to games is known as something that can take a lot of punishment before dieing, and this doesn't include the ability to dish out damage.

The name "tank" was introduced in October, 1915 as a security measure
and has been adopted in many languages. William Tritton, stated that
when the prototypes were under construction from August, 1915 they were
deliberately falsely described in order to conceal their true purpose.[30]
In the workshop the paperwork described them as "water carriers,"
supposedly for use on the Mesopotamian Front. In conversation the
workers referred to them as "water tanks" or, simply, "tanks." In
October the Landships Committee decided, for security purposes, to
change its own name to something less descriptive.

[Drummernate]

Bobkyou wrote...


Actually a real tank is something that is used to store liquid.  But you see, language changes over time.  Just as the word tank has come to be known as a heavy vehicle of destruction, the word tank when used in regards to games is known as something that can take a lot of punishment before dieing, and this doesn't include the ability to dish out damage.

So getting shot in the chest means you got hit in a storage device?...  A bundle of firewood is somehow an insult... Words can have multiple meanings.

Game designers obviously got it wrong when they say tanks shouldn't/don't deal damage.

(Yet in Borderlands 2 the "Tank" deals the most damage and has the highest health and best aggro. Looks like at least one company is doing it right!)

[holdenagincourt]

 All this talk of tanks in a BioWare game and no one has suggested porting Alistair into ME3 multiplayer...this one looks down upon and shuns all involved. 

[Bobkyou]

Drummernate wrote...
So getting shot in the chest means you got hit in a storage device?... A bundle of firewood is somehow an insult... Words can have multiple meanings. {smilie}

Game designers obviously got it wrong when they say tanks shouldn't/don't deal damage.

(Yet in Borderlands 2 the "Tank" deals the most damage and has the highest health and best aggro. Looks like at least one company is doing it right!)

No, 'game designers' haven't gotten the word wrong. They are following the established meaning. Something that is low damage high health/damage resistance. Its been that way at least since the days of Everquest in 1999, although wikipedia says the term started ~1994 in text based muds. In EQ, for example, the Warrior, Paladin, and Shadow Knight classes were all low damage, high health, and the ability to occupy enemy mobs for the rest of the party to kill. They were the 'tank' part of the 'holy trinity' of tank, healer, and dps. This has applied to most of the major mmos, EQ, DAoC, WoW, EQ2, AC, FF, DDO, ect.

Now if you want to say the term tank is changing, that's fine. But that's still not 'game developers' getting it wrong, that's the word changing to have multiple meanings and the game developers following the 'old' (1999) meaning.

But these terms don't really fit well for a game like me3 anyways. They are designed for mmorpgs, not shooters.

Sentinels don't really qualify as tanks, because they have no skills that make the enemy target them.  From a strictly mmorpg point of view, vanguards aren't tanks either.  They are crowd control with huge amounts of survivability (when played properly).  They use abilities to occupy the enemy (staggers) so the enemy can't attack, leaving the other players free to deal out lots of damage.  The only method of holding agro in this game is just being really close to the enemy.  A well played vanguard has more survivability than a sentinel due to the vanguards shield healing plus invulnerable frames.

edit:  Wait a second, am I misunderstanding you?  It wasn't game developers that coined the term 'tank,' it was players who started calling classes tanks.  And the classes that they called tanks were low damage, high survivability, and the ability to occupy or otherwise protect the party.  Thus players created that definition of the word, and it stuck.

Modifié par Bobkyou, 23 mai 2012 - 06:17 .

[JaimasOfRaxis]

Hey, quick question.

We ever going to adress the bugs? The SMG materials bug, for example, or the Amplication not working at all bug? Or the page-and-a-half of the other complained-about bugs still inexplicably in the game 3 months post release?

Just asking.

[Rokayt]

The thing about tanking in shooters: You get shot.
I mean, Look at world of tanks! Its all about REAL tanks, but its a shooter at heart, You try to tank..... YOU GET SHOT (Especially if you start playing today, tanks that can tank in the slightest are hard to get.)

[Drummernate]

Rokayt wrote...

The thing about tanking in shooters: You get shot.
I mean, Look at world of tanks! Its all about REAL tanks, but its a shooter at heart, You try to tank..... YOU GET SHOT (Especially if you start playing today, tanks that can tank in the slightest are hard to get.)

E-75 "tanks" pretty well.

MAUS is the best though. 

[Cheylus]

Does someone know if the "power damage bonus" in the Tech Armor tree actually works for the Tech Armor detonations ? You have a bonus when you are wearing the TA...

[Creighton72]

Just played as the Turian Sentinal on Gold for 4 about 5 matches. Used a Saber, my mistake, I would have rather been able to cast Overload more and use my Carni X.

I think he is a very good class for silver but nothing felt different about him from the last time I played him. Slow, good but not great shields, needs to stay in cover because of no dodge and no speed. Got staggered a lot out of cover, Nemesis still kills your shields with a shot. You know a 10% increase in damage reduction is nothing if most shots take you down to the whole Shield gate thing anyway. No speed, no dodge and enemies are to powerful on Gold to make simple damage reduction mean much. It's a tank that has to stay in cover and use support fire. Played right next to a Geth Infiltrator for most of the games. If something took him down it usually took me down as well. A grenade will still kill you, but it takes longer to move away because he has no dodge. Total support class, you have Warp to help out real Biotics and Overload to help out tech classes. But it's not like you can charge into a fight and just eat bullets on Gold. Pyro will still roast you, Hunter will still gimp your shields, Anything with an insta kill will kill and you have no dodge. Palm blaster from a Phantom still rips your shields apart, Prime will still stagger you and bleed you, Nemesis = shields gone, it's no different than before on gold. On Bronze I am sure it is still good, silver too. But on Gold Sentinal = slow moving target.

[Astartes Marine]

Drummernate wrote...
MAUS is the best though. 

At 8 miles and hour under "ideal" conditions?  Sure you get 18 inches of frontal armor and roughly 10 inches everywhere else, but with how vastly underpowered the thing's engine was the war would be long over by the time you reached even the rear lines.


As an aside, just went 5 matches on silver with my Turian Sentinel, loving the added TA defenses.

[Klokos]

Drummernate wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

 I find it hard to believe that some people on the bioware forums game designers do not know what a tank is.

Fixed.

Tiger II

^ That is a real tank.

The Tiger II was never recorded to be penetrated from the front by any tank during the war, it had the devastating L/71 which was later upgraded to an L/68 (Sounds like a downgrade... but German's had weird gun naming methods, it actually went from 8.8cm to 10.5cm) and its only fault was that it had a terrible transmission and was slow. The only way the Allies took it out was by tracking it and then hitting from the rear or sides with bazookas or sticky grenades.

They planned to upgrade it to a new version called the E-75 which improved on every aspect, but the war ended and it was scrapped.

Tanks should be able to take and dish out insane amounts of damage, but be extremely slow compared to other classes.

/Tanker rant

 But tigers tanks were overrated **** . Not to mention that todays tank  philosophy is totally different from the german one. MBT have more in common with the T-34 or the sherman than the tigers.

[Feneckus]

Drummernate wrote...

Tanks should be able to take and dish out insane amounts of damage, but be extremely slow compared to other classes.

No. Tanks aren't supposed to do much damage. That's not their role. They're supposed to make every enemy in the area target them so that the weaker classes can survive and do what they do best.

For example, in Dragon Age, tanks = warriors, DPS = mages (and they need a tank badly because they're extremely vulnerable).

In Mass Effect, if I'm a Geth Engineer with 0 points in Fitness, I'm squishy as hell and having a Krogan Sentinel on my team doesn't do **** for me. Different story with a Human Vanguard or Salarian Engineer though. 

[Dashmundo]

There's no real "tank" class in the classic RPG sense in the ME Multiplayer, since there's really not a high enough health/shield level on any class to qualify them being tanks, or anything to draw enemy attention.

The closest thing is the Human Vanguard, who can bounce from enemy to enemy drawing aggro and keeping them occupied. You rarely need to be in cover when you have a Novaguard in your team, and that's what the tank's role is in the RPG sense.

Sentinels aren't tanks, they're just slightly more durable, which is an advantage at times. Bioware gave a bad description. That's all.

[Adragalus]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Drummernate wrote...
The only problem with that is the fact that I only have to tap Y once and can run around with high damage reduction all the time even when at -200% recharge and packing uber heavy guns.

  Which of course has nothing to do with tanking.

Vanguards need to have light weapons or use armor mods constantly to keep up their tankyness.

  A Vanguard can wield a Geth Plasma Shotgun and still have a continuous charge/nova cycle without any special equipment.

Plus vanguards always need to be in the middle of all the enemies to "tank" since they need to Bio Charge to regain health, which often leads to death

For you perhaps.

Krogans can tank from any distance.

  Tanking is about locking down enemies and rendering them harmless to allies, not merely surviving a few hits from them.  A Krogan Sentinel is not doing this effectively from "any distance."  Certainly not in a way comparable to a Vanguard instantly grabbing aggro off of allies from a dozen enemies of every type and being able to hold it indefinitely while staggering them frequently and acting as a continuous combo trigger (and of course those explosions provide further crowd control).

Personally, not coming from a strong MMO background, and thus not having the "Holy Trinity" ingrained in my vocabulary, I tend to see it as such:

A Krogan Sentinel is a Tank. (Mighty Glacier, for you TV Tropes people) They can stand there, run around, melee people to death, and generally be out of cover and not doing anything special to survive. Their purpose is to absorb damage, not neccesarily draw aggro. Their survivability comes from sheer DR/total health.

A Human Novaguard is what I like to call a Bullrusher (TV Tropes analogue would be Lightning Bruiser, probably) They move quickly and draw aggro via flashy, noisy, damaging attack chains.  They can bounce from target to target, keeping enemy aggro on them because, well, they are smashing faces in. Their purpose is to keep enemies busy. Their survivability comes from chain boosts like Charge, and from moving about quickly to prevent enemies from locking them down.

I don't know how much this might clear things up, but the end result of it is that there are two different types of survivable in this situation (and many more beyond it) and that the KroSen and Novaguard perform different roles with remarkable adeptness skill.

[Serkevan]

Just to tell you something: Tanks in MMORPG make no sense. "Oh, let's hit the guy here which is just yelling at me while I ignore the OMG THAT HURTS two-hand-spiky-mace-wielding Barbarian."

Play Baldur's Gate. RPG; there are no tanks there. The only thing a warrior can do to protect a mage is to physically bodyblock the enemy.

[Momiji.mii]

Cool, a buff for my HS, can't wait to try her out now. The game froze for me approximately at the time this was posted yesterday, and I was unable to rejoin the game I'd been in, so I guess it was because the host didn't have the update (since he hadn't rebooted the game). But I'll take a tech armour buff over a silver match credits anytime!

[HellishFiend]

Serkevan wrote...

Just to tell you something: Tanks in MMORPG make no sense. "Oh, let's hit the guy here which is just yelling at me while I ignore the OMG THAT HURTS two-hand-spiky-mace-wielding Barbarian."

Play Baldur's Gate. RPG; there are no tanks there. The only thing a warrior can do to protect a mage is to physically bodyblock the enemy.

I think you mean the concept of Tanks in a literal context make no sense. In an MMO gameplay context, they make perfect sense.