274 réponses à ce sujet

[GodlessPaladin]

nuculerman wrote...
It doesn't.  He called me a moron and an idiot.  It happened.

  Whether the comment about his character is true or not does not change that you are calling his character into question.  I mean really, do I have to explain this?

There's nothing inherently wrong with that, in any case.  There is something inherently wrong with you ignoring the man's arguments and accusing him of relying on ad hominem arguments when, as others have pointed out, he pretty clearly isn't.  He has supported his argument with evidence relevant to your statements.  He specifically argued against the idea that the DPS of the Sentinel is notably lower with Tech Armor activated.  That DOES address your statement, as numerous others have pointed out.  Whether he's right or not is irrelevant to the fact that you are falsely accusing him of ad hominem arguments.

Reporting him for calling me names is not attacking his character.

 No, but making a show of it in the public forum is. 

If you can't see that, I don't know how to make it clearer.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 22 mai 2012 - 09:51 .

[Omega-202]

Here's some preliminary results and some comparisons.

As established, you're losing .13 seconds on Warp, but you're gaining 75 raw damage points from the power buff. You're losing .08 seconds on Throw but you're gaining 60 raw damage points + the increased damage due to the force increase which is impossible to calculate on a general basis (are you hitting armor? Shields? Does the target hit a wall? etc.) but does yield a larger base damage regardless of the target, just one that we can't calculate.

So in .21 seconds we're gaining 135 damage.

Now lets look at the explosion damage potential. Explosion damage scales by difficulty. The best tests and videos I've seen which try to isolate the damage per explosion were done on Silver level Brutes. They have 7500 total armor and each 6/6 explosion did just over 1/4 of their total bar (Using 2 people using Reave => Throw as fast as possible with the detonation evolution in Throw but not the power upgrade at 6). So as an estimate (and this is all I can come by without delving into the .ini files again), Silver explosions with 2 detonation upgrades in Warp + Throw = 2500 damage.

That seems to check out because it usually takes approximately 3 combos to kill a Silver Brute.

So assuming those numbers and using JUST the explosions plus the gained damage from the 30%, you get 2635 damage / 3.65 seconds for TA on and 2500 damage / 3.46 seconds for TA off.

Do a little math and you get 722 DPS for TA on and 722.5 for TA off.

HOLY S#!T guys he's right, you get .5 EXTRA damage per second if TA is off. I'm so sorry. That extra half a point is obviously the difference that makes me the moron here. God. I'm so glad that there are people like nuclulerman to tell us that literally .5 points per second is what makes TA such a handicap.

[Bobkyou]

Merkit91 wrote...

DaDiddles wrote...

Regardless of biotic explosion damage, an extra 10% power damage seems pretty sweet to me. You're not always spamming biotic explosions, and when you are against heavies, that extra power damage from both the warp and throw would start to build up pretty quickly I would imagine.

30% damage bonus to warp = 75 (base damage = 250).
Throw deals 200 damage if you take rank 6 force & damage. 30% damage bonus  to throw = 60.
Will this bonuses make a difference on gold?

The question isn't if it'll make a difference, the question is how does +30% damage to warp and throw compare to the .2 seconds you loose per BE from having tech armor active.

[Scudman_Alpha]

 *whistles* Tech armor buff!!!! yesssss now its more viable
now i kind of have no regrets of having a 6/6/6/4/4 on my human sentinel 


and nice buffs to batarian sentinel and his submission net

[Omega-202]

toastar wrote...

Guys, guys, guys, you all may think that a N7 spreadsheet armed human spamming Lvl 6 math (arithmetics build, stochastics suck, too random) owns the game, but I can ensure you, that's not the case.

But that's the point, in the end, the small minutia of the math doesn't matter.  By doing the math, it shows that the statstical difference between 2 builds in one metric is physically nothing and both will play exactly the same.  

The better player will always win, but when you're measuring a 20% recharge penalty versus a 40% damage reduction, the 40% damage reduction IS significant and the 20% recharge penalty literally isn't.  

[Omega-202]

Bobkyou wrote...

Merkit91 wrote...

DaDiddles wrote...

Regardless of biotic explosion damage, an extra 10% power damage seems pretty sweet to me. You're not always spamming biotic explosions, and when you are against heavies, that extra power damage from both the warp and throw would start to build up pretty quickly I would imagine.

30% damage bonus to warp = 75 (base damage = 250).
Throw deals 200 damage if you take rank 6 force & damage. 30% damage bonus  to throw = 60.
Will this bonuses make a difference on gold?

The question isn't if it'll make a difference, the question is how does +30% damage to warp and throw compare to the .2 seconds you loose per BE from having tech armor active.

See above math as relevant on Silver.  I'll see if I can pull some Gold numbers to measure up the difference there.  If anyone has the amount of damage that a BX does on Gold, I can just plug that in to my spreadsheet and pop out the difference.

[nuculerman]

Omega-202 wrote...

nuculerman wrote...

Omega-202 wrote...
40% damage resistance on a Human Sentinel with a 30% power damage boost and less than a .2 second penalty on Warp? What part of that was necessary? They were already the best character to use against Reapers without a doubt and now they're even better.
 

You do know biotic explosions are not effected by power damage passives, right?

A human sentinel without tech armor has better DPS potential than a human sentinel with tech armor.

OH GOODY!!  We're going to do some math again to show you how much of an idiot you are!!! 

Here's why you're a moron:

 Do you know how much you get slowed down by Tech Armor?  No?  Of course you don't. 


If you argue that DPS matters, when it physically can't because you PHYSICALLY cannot activate your powers fast enough for it to matter then you're a moron.  Its that simple.

This is the actual convo, with his condescending "do you know??" math taken out for brevity.

And you're taking issue that I called his ARGUMENT fallacious and said "thanks for playing?"

K.

[BjornDaDwarf]

Omega-202 wrote...

Stuff, numbers, some math.

I'm sure that .5 DPS completely outweighs the damage reduction and ability to detonate yourself in a tight spot (like say, falling into the loving arms of a Banshee).

[GodlessPaladin]

nuculerman wrote...

Omega-202 wrote...

nuculerman wrote...

Omega-202 wrote...
40% damage resistance on a Human Sentinel with a 30% power damage boost and less than a .2 second penalty on Warp? What part of that was necessary? They were already the best character to use against Reapers without a doubt and now they're even better.
 

You do know biotic explosions are not effected by power damage passives, right?

A human sentinel without tech armor has better DPS potential than a human sentinel with tech armor.

OH GOODY!!  We're going to do some math again to show you how much of an idiot you are!!! 

Here's why you're a moron:

 Do you know how much you get slowed down by Tech Armor?  No?  Of course you don't. 


If you argue that DPS matters, when it physically can't because you PHYSICALLY cannot activate your powers fast enough for it to matter then you're a moron.  Its that simple.

This is the actual convo, with his condescending "do you know??" math taken out for brevity.

And you're taking issue that I called his ARGUMENT fallacious and said "thanks for playing?"

K.

You're STILL harping on his character.  Yes, we get that he called you a name.  Nobody ever contested that, which makes me wonder what the point of the quoted post is.

Maria Caliban wrote... Straight up calling someone a name isn't an ad hominem.

I wrote... Whether the comment about his character is true or not does not change that you are calling his character into question.  I mean really, do I have to explain this?

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 22 mai 2012 - 10:00 .

[Pekkan]

It's also 30% more force, increase in force increases the damage taken when the mob sent flying by throw hits something, also should increase stagger probability and knock back probability I think.

Modifié par Pekkan, 22 mai 2012 - 09:58 .

[Bobkyou]

Omega-202 wrote...

Here's some preliminary results and some comparisons.

As established, you're losing .13 seconds on Warp, but you're gaining 75 raw damage points from the power buff. You're losing .08 seconds on Throw but you're gaining 60 raw damage points + the increased damage due to the force increase which is impossible to calculate on a general basis (are you hitting armor? Shields? Does the target hit a wall? etc.) but does yield a larger base damage regardless of the target, just one that we can't calculate.

So in .21 seconds we're gaining 135 damage.

Now lets look at the explosion damage potential. Explosion damage scales by difficulty. The best tests and videos I've seen which try to isolate the damage per explosion were done on Silver level Brutes. They have 7500 total armor and each 6/6 explosion did just over 1/4 of their total bar (Using 2 people using Reave => Throw as fast as possible with the detonation evolution in Throw but not the power upgrade at 6). So as an estimate (and this is all I can come by without delving into the .ini files again), Silver explosions with 2 detonation upgrades in Warp + Throw = 2500 damage.

That seems to check out because it usually takes approximately 3 combos to kill a Silver Brute.

So assuming those numbers and using JUST the explosions plus the gained damage from the 30%, you get 2635 damage / 3.65 seconds for TA on and 2500 damage / 3.46 seconds for TA off.

Do a little math and you get 722 DPS for TA on and 722.5 for TA off.

HOLY S#!T guys he's right, you get .5 EXTRA damage per second if TA is off. I'm so sorry. That extra half a point is obviously the difference that makes me the moron here. God. I'm so glad that there are people like nuclulerman to tell us that literally .5 points per second is what makes TA such a handicap.

Your math is flawed, because you are assuming the BE is only effecting 1 target (I'm only poking fun)
You are also blowing what he said way out of proportion.

nuculerman wrote...
I'm psyched for my Sentinels, but the Sentry Turret buff is meaningless. 

nuculerman wrote...

Omega-202 wrote...
40%
damage resistance on a Human Sentinel with a 30% power damage boost and
less than a .2 second penalty on Warp? What part of that was necessary?
They were already the best character to use against Reapers without a
doubt and now they're even better.
 

You do know biotic explosions are not effected by power damage passives, right?

A human sentinel without tech armor has better DPS potential than a human sentinel with tech armor.

nuculerman wrote...
And my human sentinel uses tech armor.  All six levels of it.  I have an asari adept.  I like playing my HS because he can stay out of cover longer and save allies with tech armor bursts.  So your assumption that I'm running with a sub optimal build, simply because I made the point tech armor doesn't help his damage output, and does in fact decrease his POTENTIAL damage output, is yet another logical fallacy.  You seem to have those nailed.

nuculerman wrote...
Conclusion: the power damage passive is meaningless for the Human Sentinel.

Technically, its not meaningless.  But his point still remains that a HS with no tech armor has higher damage.  He never said tech armor was horrible or that only noobs use it, he just said 1 thing that's being blown out of proportion.

Modifié par Bobkyou, 22 mai 2012 - 10:10 .

[nuculerman]

XxTaLoNxX wrote...

Can't we all just get along?

TA is better on than off, if you are playing a Sentinel there is literally NO reason to not max TA now.

This I agree with.  I agreed with it before the buffs.  I'm just not taking tech armor for greater DPS potential.  Human Sentinel with Tech Armor was always a unique class.  HS without tech armor is just a nerfed Asari Adept.

[marshalleck]

Nice changes. Batarian sentinel should be pretty awesome now (I thought he was fine before) and human sentinel is definitely superior to asari adept. I like.

[Serkevan]

BjornDaDwarf wrote...

Omega-202 wrote...

Stuff, numbers, some math.

I'm sure that .5 DPS completely outweighs the damage reduction and ability to detonate yourself in a tight spot (like say, falling into the loving arms of a Banshee).

That math is flawed since throw ALWAYS deals damage, and that damage would be increased by TA. In any case, I would have to test it, and the easiest way to do it would be 2 human sentinels, same build, same weapon, against a brute. Warp-throw until it is dead, and measure times. Nothing like empyrical proof. And I am actually guessing that the damage of that BE is taking into account the damage of both powers.

[GodlessPaladin]

nuculerman wrote...
 I'm just not taking tech armor for greater DPS potential.

Please illustrate this greater DPS potential for us.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 22 mai 2012 - 10:02 .

[WarriorOsprey]

Nuculerman is committing the fallacy fallacy.

The fallacy in which you assume a fallacious portion of the argument renders the whole argument null and void.

(even though the insult was not part of the math based argument!)

This thread also talked me into thinking sentinels are better than I thought. : D Thanks a bunch guys.

[nuculerman]

GodlessPaladin wrote...
You're STILL harping on his character and ignoring the arguments everyone has given you.  Yes, we get that he called you a name.  Nobody ever contested that, which makes me wonder what the point fo this post is.

I'm not.  I'm attacking his argument.  I haven't attacked his character once.  I've said a single "condescending" statement, namely "thanks for playing."  Calling his argument fallacious is not attacking his character.  Reporting him for name calling is not attacking his character.

The fact I called his argument an ad hominem and red herring, if I'm wrong, means my argument is wrong.  It doesn't mean I attacked his character.  Even Albert Einstein said things that were flat our wrong.  That doesn't make him an idiot.  Do you really not see the distinction here?

[PD ORTA]

Yes, another TA buff... i'm happy. All they need to do is buff the detonation and it will be (almost) perfect.

Edit: just realised they did buff detonation. I'll have to use it a bit more.

Modifié par PD ORTA, 22 mai 2012 - 10:16 .

[marshalleck]

Serkevan wrote...
 And I am actually guessing that the damage of that BE is taking into account the damage of both powers.

It doesn't. We know this because the devs have told us so. BE damage is based solely on ranks of powers that you're comboing with, and then any talents that specifically state they increase biotic explosion damage. Throw's damage (and any talents that increase throw's damage) will still be calculated on the target, but not as part of the explosion itself. 

[BjornDaDwarf]

At any rate, I agree this has got me more interested in Sentinels, I don't think I had given them a good look before.

Can a TA detonation set off Tech/Biotic combos?  I've read through the thread on that and not seen it in the original post, but probably not lots of opportunities to use it either, if it can.

[LordOpic]

Yike's some people around here need to get out a bit more. Anyway my Turian sent, approves of anything that make's his TA better. As for the QE Turret, my QE is a fire and ice Queen the turret was fun but lacks so so much it's not worth taking.

Oh and the Eagle still needs some love as do the AR's and the ........keep going your getting there.

Modifié par LordOpic, 22 mai 2012 - 10:11 .

[GodlessPaladin]

nuculerman wrote...  Calling his argument fallacious is not attacking his character.  Reporting him for name calling is not attacking his character.

  Now you're doing a straw man argument, especially since I SPECIFICALLY gave those as examples of things that were not attacks on someone's character.

Calling him "condescending," however, is a commentary on his character.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 22 mai 2012 - 10:17 .

[Omega-202]

nuculerman wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...
You're STILL harping on his character and ignoring the arguments everyone has given you.  Yes, we get that he called you a name.  Nobody ever contested that, which makes me wonder what the point fo this post is.

I'm not.  I'm attacking his argument.  I haven't attacked his character once.  I've said a single "condescending" statement, namely "thanks for playing."  Calling his argument fallacious is not attacking his character.  Reporting him for name calling is not attacking his character.

The fact I called his argument an ad hominem and red herring, if I'm wrong, means my argument is wrong.  It doesn't mean I attacked his character.  Even Albert Einstein said things that were flat our wrong.  That doesn't make him an idiot.  Do you really not see the distinction here?

Remove my insults.  Now prove my math wrong.  Prove that there is a decrease in DPS that is possible to notice in practice.  

I've conclusively shown that under PERFECTLY optimal conditions, on Silver, the difference is .5 DPS DISREGARDING the rest of the damage that Warp and Throw do.

Show me that the math is wrong.  Prove that .5 DPS (btw a single Avenger I bullet does 38.6 for comparison) is something that EVER has an effect on gameplay.  Show that your original assertion is correct and I'm wrong.  

To refresh your memory: "
A human sentinel without tech armor has better DPS potential than a human sentinel with tech armor. "  

Prove that assertion is correct to any significant degree.