274 réponses à ce sujet

[PD ORTA]

PD ORTA wrote...

Yes, another TA buff... i'm happy. All they need to do is buff the detonation and it will be (almost) perfect.

Edit: just realised they did buff detonation. I'll have to use it a bit more.

[BjornDaDwarf]

nuculerman wrote...

Omega-202 wrote...

nuculerman wrote...

Omega-202 wrote...
40% damage resistance on a Human Sentinel with a 30% power damage boost and less than a .2 second penalty on Warp? What part of that was necessary? They were already the best character to use against Reapers without a doubt and now they're even better.
 

You do know biotic explosions are not effected by power damage passives, right?

A human sentinel without tech armor has better DPS potential than a human sentinel with tech armor.

OH GOODY!!  We're going to do some math again to show you how much of an idiot you are!!! 

Here's why you're a moron:

 Do you know how much you get slowed down by Tech Armor?  No?  Of course you don't. 


If you argue that DPS matters, when it physically can't because you PHYSICALLY cannot activate your powers fast enough for it to matter then you're a moron.  Its that simple.

This is the actual convo, with his condescending "do you know??" math taken out for brevity.

And you're taking issue that I called his ARGUMENT fallacious and said "thanks for playing?"

K.

Last thing I'm going to point out about this, you started the whole, "Do you know?" part:

"You do know biotic explosions are not effected by power damage passives, right?"

This is the internet, people can take things as being condescending and insulting pretty easily.

[Daynan]

Sentinel Week!
Time to dust off Tech Armour. Thanks for the balance changes, good stuff.
Looking forward to next Tuesday.

[GodlessPaladin]

The real argument for Tech Armor, IMHO, isn't whether or not it is better to leave it on or off... it's whether it justifies taking the build points out of ALLIANCE TRAINING or FITNESS. That is the comparison that we should be doing. Taking points out of Alliance Training DOES cost DPS in a meaningful way (Is 10% Hurricane damage negligible?), and (correct me if I'm wrong) doesn't dropping Fitness lose you more effective health/shields than dropping TA?

Where does one find the proper balance?

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 22 mai 2012 - 10:25 .

[Cyonan]

 

Omega-202 wrote...

Remove my insults.  Now prove my math wrong.  Prove that there is a decrease in DPS that is possible to notice in practice.  

I've conclusively shown that under PERFECTLY optimal conditions, on Silver, the difference is .5 DPS DISREGARDING the rest of the damage that Warp and Throw do.

Show me that the math is wrong.  Prove that .5 DPS (btw a single Avenger I bullet does 38.6 for comparison) is something that EVER has an effect on gameplay.  Show that your original assertion is correct and I'm wrong.  

I don't even have to do math to show you that your math isn't perfect. All I have to do is quote you. 

Omega-202 wrote...
So as an estimate (and this is all I can come by without delving into the .ini files again), Silver explosions with 2 detonation upgrades in Warp + Throw = 2500 damage. 

You can write all the calculations that you want, you can do in-game testing and eyeball it all you want.

Without definite numbers, your calculations are all just estimates and not 100% accurate math.

[GodlessPaladin]

Good point Cyonan. Does anyone know what the damage for BEs is on Gold?

[DaDiddles]

You can write all the calculations that you want, you can do in-game testing and eyeball it all you want.

Without definite numbers, your calculations are all just estimates and not 100% accurate math.

Definitely agree there.

I'd also like to say that Reave may not be the best way to measure BEs, since it deals pretty hefty damage over time, and it stacks. For all we know, Reave could have added another 1000-2000 damage over the time it took to detonate all those BEs.

In the end, the extra damage is probably negligable at best. I'd say the true benefit in the end, is just that you don't have to waste a respec card to get rid of Tech Armor.

[GodlessPaladin]

What does Tech Armor really do for the HS to make it worth more than extra points in passives?

I mean, even if we assumed that TA-on biotic damage vs TA-off biotic damage was a null sum, why is it better than 6 Fitness/6 Alliance Training? 

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 22 mai 2012 - 10:41 .

[Omega-202]

DaDiddles wrote...

You can write all the calculations that you want, you can do in-game testing and eyeball it all you want.

Without definite numbers, your calculations are all just estimates and not 100% accurate math.

Definitely agree there.

I'd also like to say that Reave may not be the best way to measure BEs, since it deals pretty hefty damage over time, and it stacks. For all we know, Reave could have added another 1000-2000 damage over the time it took to detonate all those BEs.

In the end, the extra damage is probably negligable at best. I'd say the true benefit in the end, is just that you don't have to waste a respec card to get rid of Tech Armor.

I am not going to defend the estimate I made.  It is an estimate.  

What I am going to say is that this result was literally found with the best means possible.  Throw was used DIRECTLY after Reave and the image was frozen directly after the impact.  Reave had at most 2 "ticks" worth of damage applied in the amount of time it took for the effect to explode.  Throw is the lowest damage detonator possible as it was not specced to deal any actual damage.  This combo, isolated directly after the jump in health loss is the best estimate I was able to find.  

If we have real numbers or an exhorbitant amount of "real world" DPS races with actual enemies in isolation, then we can continue here.  But the fact is, 135 extra damage in .2 seconds is nothing to scoff at.  Its not massive, but its not something that can be ignored.  

[Bobkyou]

Simplest way to measure this would be take a SE + HS into gold. Get an atlas or geth prime focused on the decoy, and measure in seconds how long it takes the HS to kill the mob with BEs both with and without tech armor (and the HS should be the host).

But I find the whole conversation moot. If you want more health, HS, if you want stasis, AA. Comparing stasis to TA is comparing apples to oranges.  And a HS without tech armor, particularly with the new TA boosts, doesn't make a lot of sense.

edit:  To make it official though we'd need multiple trials.

Modifié par Bobkyou, 22 mai 2012 - 10:44 .

[The Shadow Broker]

good news, probably now i can kick ass in gold also with my batarian sentinel before they kick me out (50% of the time if you are not engineer, infiltrator or asari adept)

[Omega-202]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

What does Tech Armor really do for the HS to make it worth more than extra points in passives?

With 30% resistance, a 6/5/3 (Armor, Alliance, Fitness) was ~9% more durable (overall) than a 0/6/6 at the sacrifice of 10% weapon damage or 30% weapon weight.  

I haven't done the numbers on the new 40% but I'm kinda getting fed up with this thread at this point.  Someone else can crunch the numbers.

[GodlessPaladin]

Omega-202 wrote...
With 30% resistance, a 6/5/3 (Armor, Alliance, Fitness) was ~9% more durable (overall) than a 0/6/6 at the sacrifice of 10% weapon damage or 30% weapon weight. 

  Did you account for the true DR formula?  Because IIRC 40% actually is less than 40%.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 22 mai 2012 - 10:43 .

[Serkevan]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

The real argument for Tech Armor, IMHO, isn't whether or not it is better to leave it on or off... it's whether it justifies taking the build points out of ALLIANCE TRAINING or FITNESS. That is the comparison that we should be doing. Taking points out of Alliance Training DOES cost DPS in a meaningful way (Is 10% Hurricane damage negligible?), and (correct me if I'm wrong) doesn't dropping Fitness lose you more effective health/shields than dropping TA?

Where does one find the proper balance?

Now this is the real question. Let's see the case for a 6/6/6/5/3 build. This one has, IIRC, 2500 effective health (625 shields+625 health)*(1/0.5 [DR ]), while the last fitness rank adds up to a grand total of (no TA build) of 2*825=1650 effective health. As we see, the only benefit associated with fitness over TA is the difference in shield recharge times. Actually, a 6/6/6/6/0 build still has 2000 effective health, still above the no-TA build. Other, completely different thing, is the 10 damage per bullet (assuming a Hurricane I) we lose if we forget the last perk on Alliance Training... I don't know how that would compute. 

[Influ]

Omega-202 wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

What does Tech Armor really do for the HS to make it worth more than extra points in passives?

With 30% resistance, a 6/5/3 (Armor, Alliance, Fitness) was ~9% more durable (overall) than a 0/6/6 at the sacrifice of 10% weapon damage or 30% weapon weight.  

I haven't done the numbers on the new 40% but I'm kinda getting fed up with this thread at this point.  Someone else can crunch the numbers.

Let's not forget the stagger causing AoE explosion that's on a low cooldown. In some situations it will give you infinitely more survivability than a few percent of health and shields ever would.

[GodlessPaladin]

Serkevan wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

The real argument for Tech Armor, IMHO, isn't whether or not it is better to leave it on or off... it's whether it justifies taking the build points out of ALLIANCE TRAINING or FITNESS. That is the comparison that we should be doing. Taking points out of Alliance Training DOES cost DPS in a meaningful way (Is 10% Hurricane damage negligible?), and (correct me if I'm wrong) doesn't dropping Fitness lose you more effective health/shields than dropping TA?

Where does one find the proper balance?

Now this is the real question. Let's see the case for a 6/6/6/5/3 build. This one has, IIRC, 2500 effective health (625 shields+625 health)*(1/0.5 [DR ]), while the last fitness rank adds up to a grand total of (no TA build) of 2*825=1650 effective health. As we see, the only benefit associated with fitness over TA is the difference in shield recharge times. Actually, a 6/6/6/6/0 build still has 2000 effective health, still above the no-TA build. Other, completely different thing, is the 10 damage per bullet (assuming a Hurricane I) we lose if we forget the last perk on Alliance Training... I don't know how that would compute. 

IIRC, the DR %s lie to you.  Hold on, I'll see if I can find the thread.

[Cyonan]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Good point Cyonan. Does anyone know what the damage for BEs is on Gold?

Unfortunately, it uses force.

According to the Coalesced.bin, a biotic combo does 100-250 damage with 500-1000 force as a base.

As far as I know however, none of us have figured out exactly how Force translates into damage, and it has too many variables to get a single number out of it.

Omega-202 wrote...
What I am going to say is that this result was literally found with the best means possible. Throw was used DIRECTLY after Reave and the image was frozen directly after the impact. Reave had at most 2 "ticks" worth of damage applied in the amount of time it took for the effect to explode. Throw is the lowest damage detonator possible as it was not specced to deal any actual damage. This combo, isolated directly after the jump in health loss is the best estimate I was able to find.

And it was still an eyeballed estimate. You asked someone to prove your math wrong and I did it. Your math isn't correct and it never will be without definite numbers. Saying that TA off only gives 0.5 more DPS under ideal situations is not something we know right now.

Modifié par Cyonan, 22 mai 2012 - 10:46 .

[GodlessPaladin]

social.bioware.com/forums/forum/1/topic/343/index/11485213/1

According to this, you need something like 133% DR to take 0 damage... meaning the game tooltip, ONCE AGAIN, is lying to you when it says it reduces damage by 50%.

We need to take this into account.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 22 mai 2012 - 10:49 .

[january42]

Tech armor is the big one here. That makes Human and Turian sentinals a viable alternative to asari(who are still better vs cerberus).

We seem to be reaching the the point where we see the limits of what they can do here however.

Submission net buffs are nice, but don't fix the main problem: It's targetting is horrible and it always seems to get hung up on things on the way to the target. If it flew like Concussive shot and then became a net on impact...it would be fine.  As it is, it's easily dodged and gets hung up alot on the scenery

Same thing the Sentry Turret.   There are two reasons no one takes the sentry turret rockets

1)When every the sentry turret shoots something, the enemy shoots back and destroys it before it does much in the way of damage.  The flamethrower at least kind of avoids this due to the flame effect.

2)The rockets main advantage(Range) is negated by the horrrible targeting AI.  It always seems to go for the closest enemy....even if there is a wall or  floor in the way. And ignore enmies it has a clear shot at who are foot further away.   Till they fix that, it just won't be that useful.

[tfoltz]

I do 6/6/6/3/5 on human sentinel. It will be even greater now.

[Serkevan]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

social.bioware.com/forums/forum/1/topic/343/index/11485213/1

According to this, you need something like 133% DR to take 0 damage... meaning the game tooltip, ONCE AGAIN, is lying to you when it says it reduces damage by 50%.

We need to take this into account.

Well, if I understood it correctly, it mitigates damage by 50%... just not ALL of them, lol. Bioware should give us the exact formulas so that we can properly theorycraft. Also, this would explain why TA always felt to me like it had literally no effect at lower levels. Thanks for the info!

[ManixEther]

While I appreciate the Bat Sent's (my favorite class) buffs, submission net is still terrible. The only use I have for it is against Phantoms, and you have to set it up on the ground for it to even hit them. They've walked over my net many times, so a proper buff/fix would be increasing the area of the trap activation. Why would anyone use submission net over shockwave for stunning troops when they dodge it 90% of the time (with an 8 second base cooldown to boot!)?

[Atheosis]

ManixEther wrote...

While I appreciate the Bat Sent's (my favorite class) buffs, submission net is still terrible. The only use I have for it is against Phantoms, and you have to set it up on the ground for it to even hit them. They've walked over my net many times, so a proper buff/fix would be increasing the area of the trap activation. Why would anyone use submission net over shockwave for stunning troops when they dodge it 90% of the time (with an 8 second base cooldown to boot!)?

Why would anyone use Shockwave since it only really affects shieldless targets?

[DaDiddles]

ManixEther wrote...

While I appreciate the Bat Sent's (my favorite class) buffs, submission net is still terrible. The only use I have for it is against Phantoms, and you have to set it up on the ground for it to even hit them. They've walked over my net many times, so a proper buff/fix would be increasing the area of the trap activation. Why would anyone use submission net over shockwave for stunning troops when they dodge it 90% of the time (with an 8 second base cooldown to boot!)?

Yes. This is what I've been wanting for Submission Net as well.

Since it's a projectile, there's no way it can ever be more reliable from a distance than the instantly-activated Stasis. However, if the trap size was about big enough to cover a chokepoint like a hallway, it would be a great way to cover your flank, and protect you from enemies charging straight in at you.

[Cyonan]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

social.bioware.com/forums/forum/1/topic/343/index/11485213/1

According to this, you need something like 133% DR to take 0 damage... meaning the game tooltip, ONCE AGAIN, is lying to you when it says it reduces damage by 50%.

We need to take this into account.

According to the formula he linked, 50% DR equates to 37.5% of true DR. This translates into a 60% increase in effective health for people with a 50% DR Tech Armour.

Compare this to pre-buff, and it was around 30% true DR, with an increase in effective health of 42.9%.

Modifié par Cyonan, 22 mai 2012 - 11:03 .