274 réponses à ce sujet

[GodlessPaladin]

Drummernate wrote...

Whoever says the Krogan Sentinel cannot tank is obviously terrible...

I played a few matches with him earlier before the patch buffing TA and I was still taking hits from 3 Geth troopers at once and still having time to get to cover before I got to 1 bar of health.

Unlike the Geth Infiltrator who would have died to one 4 shot burst from only one Trooper.

I also had time to reload my Claymore without reload glitching while being burned by a Pyro and then shotgun melee it. (With 3 bars of health left.)

Not to mention that I only had the first 5% damage reduction upgrade and level 3 fitness. I was using a cyclonic modulator though, but that is still tons better than all the other characters.

"Taking hits from geth troopers and having time to get to cover" is not what is meant by tanking.

[Drummernate]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Drummernate wrote...

Whoever says the Krogan Sentinel cannot tank is obviously terrible...

I played a few matches with him earlier before the patch buffing TA and I was still taking hits from 3 Geth troopers at once and still having time to get to cover before I got to 1 bar of health.

Unlike the Geth Infiltrator who would have died to one 4 shot burst from only one Trooper.

I also had time to reload my Claymore without reload glitching while being burned by a Pyro and then shotgun melee it. (With 3 bars of health left.)

Not to mention that I only had the first 5% damage reduction upgrade and level 3 fitness. I was using a cyclonic modulator though, but that is still tons better than all the other characters.

"Taking hits from geth troopers and having time to get to cover" is not what is meant by tanking.

So distracting almost all of the visible enemies and not dying is not tanking?

Hmmm...

That's pretty much what tanks do in other games.

[N7-RedFox]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

This week's multiplayer balance changes are now live. The changes are posted here.

Would have really liked an extra bullet in the clip for my paladin

[GodlessPaladin]

@Drummer

Why don't you respond to what Cyonan's post about tanks actually says?  Which is that Human Vanguards fill the tank role better than Sentinels do.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 23 mai 2012 - 12:36 .

[Drummernate]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

@Drummer

Why don't you respond to what Cyonan's post about tanks actually says?  Which is that Human Vanguards fill the tank role better than Sentinels do.

The only problem with that is the fact that I only have to tap Y once and can run around with high damage reduction all the time even when at -200% recharge and packing uber heavy guns.

Vanguards need to have light weapons or use armor mods constantly to keep up their tankyness.

Plus vanguards always need to be in the middle of all the enemies to "tank" since they need to Bio Charge to regain health, which often leads to death, Krogans can tank from any distance.

[Shampoohorn]

@Cyonan
There is an additional complicating factor with biotic explosions which is that the devs have told us that their damage scales with difficulty and is based on mob health levels. So in one sense your calcs are missing some key info.

What this means is that on gold, detonation damage and therefor detonation rate is much more of a factor than power damage.

Sadly, the devs have never provided hard numbers.

[GodlessPaladin]

Drummernate wrote...
The only problem with that is the fact that I only have to tap Y once and can run around with high damage reduction all the time even when at -200% recharge and packing uber heavy guns.

  Which of course has nothing to do with tanking.

Vanguards need to have light weapons or use armor mods constantly to keep up their tankyness.

  A Vanguard can wield a Geth Plasma Shotgun and still have a continuous charge/nova cycle without any special equipment.

Plus vanguards always need to be in the middle of all the enemies to "tank" since they need to Bio Charge to regain health, which often leads to death

For you perhaps.

Krogans can tank from any distance.

  Tanking is about locking down enemies and rendering them harmless to allies, not merely surviving a few hits from them.  A Krogan Sentinel is not doing this effectively from "any distance."  Certainly not in a way comparable to a Vanguard instantly grabbing aggro off of allies from a dozen enemies of every type and being able to hold it indefinitely while staggering them frequently and acting as a continuous combo trigger (and of course those explosions provide further crowd control).

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 23 mai 2012 - 01:21 .

[Cyonan]

Shampoohorn wrote...

@Cyonan
There is an additional complicating factor with biotic explosions which is that the devs have told us that their damage scales with difficulty and is based on mob health levels. So in one sense your calcs are missing some key info.

What this means is that on gold, detonation damage and therefor detonation rate is much more of a factor than power damage.

Sadly, the devs have never provided hard numbers.

It's true that it scales based on all those things. It's also true that biotics in general are less effective against shields. Though the datamined gamefiles said that max biotic combo damage is 250, and force is 1000(before perks from warp/throw/shockwave) so that's what I was going off of.

If it is in fact capable of going higher than what the game files say it is, then that favours the non tech armour users for DPS, and Force/Second.

[Drummernate]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Drummernate wrote...
The only problem with that is the fact that I only have to tap Y once and can run around with high damage reduction all the time even when at -200% recharge and packing uber heavy guns.

  Which of course has nothing to do with tanking.

Being able to focus on headshots while taking damage and using extremely high damage weapons like a Javelin, Claymore, or Saber has nothing to do with tanking? Most Tanks are supposed to be able to do major damage to the enemies they are aggro'ing to defend themselves and their team better, hence the name Tank. Usually they have a rage mode that increases damage while they are aggro'ing (Blood Rage... although it only counts for melee in Mass Effect). So carrying heavy, high damage weapons fits the role. Not to mention that I do not have to host games to be at max effectiveness.

Vanguards need to have light weapons or use armor mods constantly to keep up their tankyness.

  A Vanguard can wield a Geth Plasma Shotgun and still have a continuous charge/nova cycle without any special equipment.

Maybe at level X, but if someone had a level 1 GPS they would be at probably a 10 second recharge. Plus they need to be spec'd for half-blast to keep the nova spam constant which limits their stun potential.

Plus vanguards always need to be in the middle of all the enemies to "tank" since they need to Bio Charge to regain health, which often leads to death

For you perhaps. 

Hah... yeah, like I do not know how to use a vanguard? I am referring to the 99% of public match Vanguards that die every 3 seconds.

Krogans can tank from any distance.

  Tanking is about locking down enemies and rendering them harmless to allies, not merely surviving a few hits from them.  A Krogan Soldier is not doing this effectively from "any distance."  Certainly not in a way comparable to a Vanguard instantly grabbing aggro off of allies from a dozen enemies of every type and being able to hold it indefinitely.  Not to mention staggering them constantly.

So you are saying that a Krogan Soldier with stunning AoE Carnage and maxed out Flame Grenades (Which stun when thrown at the enemy, plus when they burn through the shields, and then they begin to make them freak out, and almost always cause aggro to the thrower after they are done freaking out IF they survive the burn time...) cannot stun a group of enemies as effectively as a Vanguard...? Not only does he stun them but he can kill them before they fire a shot! Carnage + Grenade + 1 Saber Shot each is enough to kill any infantry group and keep them stunned while doing it. The Sentinel is even better because of Lift Grenades and Tech Armor which both cause mega stun and can kill a huge group of guys extremely fast when used properly. (Tech armor can stun about every 2.6 seconds if you have 200%, way faster than vanguards who often need to double nova to get a stagger.)

Modifié par Drummernate, 23 mai 2012 - 01:22 .

[GodlessPaladin]

Drummernate wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Drummernate wrote...
The only problem with that is the fact that I only have to tap Y once and can run around with high damage reduction all the time even when at -200% recharge and packing uber heavy guns.

  Which of course has nothing to do with tanking. Being able to focus on headshots while taking damage and using extremely high damage weapons like a Javelin, Claymore, or Saber has nothing to do with tanking? Most Tanks are supposed to be able to do major damage to the enemies they are aggro'ing to defend themselves and their team better, hence the name Tank. Usually they have a rage mode that increases damage while they are aggro'ing (Blood Rage... although it only counts for melee in Mass Effect). So carrying heavy, high damage weapons fits the role. Not to mention that I do not have to host games to be at max effectiveness.

Vanguards need to have light weapons or use armor mods constantly to keep up their tankyness.

  A Vanguard can wield a Geth Plasma Shotgun and still have a continuous charge/nova cycle without any special equipment. Maybe at level X, but if someone had a level 1 GPS they would be at probably a 10 second recharge. Plus they need to be spec'd for half-blast to keep the nova spam constant which limits their stun potential.

Plus vanguards always need to be in the middle of all the enemies to "tank" since they need to Bio Charge to regain health, which often leads to death

For you perhaps. Hah... yeah, like I do not know how to use a vanguard? I am referring to the 99% of public match Vanguards that die every 3 seconds.

Krogans can tank from any distance.

  Tanking is about locking down enemies and rendering them harmless to allies, not merely surviving a few hits from them.  A Krogan Soldier is not doing this effectively from "any distance."  Certainly not in a way comparable to a Vanguard instantly grabbing aggro off of allies from a dozen enemies of every type and being able to hold it indefinitely.  Not to mention staggering them constantly. So you are saying that a Krogan Soldier with stunning AoE Carnage and maxed out Flame Grenades (Which stun when thrown at the enemy, plus when they burn through the shields, and then they begin to make them freak out, and almost always cause aggro to the thrower after they are done freaking out IF they survive the burn time...) cannot stun a group of enemies as effectively as a Vanguard...? Not only does he stun them but he can kill them before they fire a shot! Carnage + Grenade + 1 Saber Shot each is enough to kill any infantry group and keep them stunned while doing it. The Sentinel is even better because of Lift Grenades and Tech Armor which both cause mega stun and can kill a huge group of guys extremely fast when used properly. (Tech armor can stun about every 2.6 seconds if you have 200%, way faster than vanguards who often need to double nova to get a stagger.)

LOL at how it's impossible for you to respond to what anyone's actually saying.  When did anyone talk about the Krogan Soldier?  Comments were about SENTINELS.

Edit:  Err, actually he was responding to a typo on my part.  Whoops.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 23 mai 2012 - 01:32 .

[Drummernate]

GodlessPaladin wrote...


LOL at how it's impossible for you to respond to what anyone's actually saying.  When did anyone talk about the Krogan Soldier?  Comments were about SENTINELS.

Okay now you are being dumb...

You said IN YOUR POST that a Krogan Soldier cannot stun like a Vanguard.

LOL AT HOW IMPOSSIBLE IT IS FOR YOU TO READ CORRECTLY!

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Tanking is about locking down enemies and rendering them harmless to
allies, not merely surviving a few hits from them.  A Krogan Soldier is
not doing this effectively from "any distance."  Certainly not in a way
comparable to a Vanguard instantly grabbing aggro off of allies from a
dozen enemies of every type and being able to hold it indefinitely while
staggering them frequently and acting as a continuous combo trigger
(and of course those explosions provide further crowd control).

Modifié par Drummernate, 23 mai 2012 - 01:21 .

[GodlessPaladin]

Drummernate wrote...
You said IN YOUR POST that a Krogan Soldier cannot stun like a Vanguard.

  A typo on my part then.  The original posts which established the topic, which you disagreed with, were comparing Krogan Sentinels and Human Vanguards.  And that is what I was talking about.

So that clears up that bit of miscommunication. 

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 23 mai 2012 - 01:30 .

[Longhammer808]

@Drummernate

Get ready for the line-by-line takedown of your line-by-line comeback!

For the record, I always assumed tanks were just damage absorbers on teams, but the idea that they are a damage-dealing focal points makes sense, too. But, as always, I come here not only to learn...but to be taught.

ME3 Multiplayer: "It's all about science!"

[Drummernate]

Longhammer808 wrote...

For the record, I always assumed tanks were just damage absorbers on teams, but the idea that they are a damage-dealing focal points makes sense, too. But, as always, I come here not only to learn...but to be taught.

ME3 Multiplayer: "It's all about science!"

Good... good! Let the knowledge flow through you young grasshopper! 

[Cyonan]

To clarify what tanking generally refers to for people:

Tanking is the act of distracting the enemy to attack you instead of your allies, and then surviving the resulting onslaught via a combination of damage reduction effects, healing(self or otherwise), and avoiding attacks.

Crowd Control is the act of locking down a target so they cannot do anything. It is incredibly valuable to tanking, and in this game could be used in place of it(Since CC is so rampant, and tanking is really weak), but it isn't actually quite the same thing as tanking.

A high CC class does not equal a tanking class. A tanking class also does not equal a high CC class.

Also I would add Drummernate, that a tank's primary job is not in fact to deal large amounts of damage(They deal damage, just not to the same level as the DPS classes). Even if you want to consider damage, then the Human Vanguard still wins when properly played, imo(Especially when paired with an Adept).

The Human Vanguard is a more effective tank than a Krogan Sentinel, and it pretty much always will be(Unless they buff TA to some absurd number like 120% or more) because of the fact that the Novaguard can chain together invincibility frames and regenerate their shields.

The fact that one is easier doesn't negate the fact that the other is more effective at doing the job.

Modifié par Cyonan, 23 mai 2012 - 01:36 .

[4nNuNaKi]

what about the invisible turrets?

[ManixEther]

Atheosis wrote...

ManixEther wrote...

While I appreciate the Bat Sent's (my favorite class) buffs, submission net is still terrible. The only use I have for it is against Phantoms, and you have to set it up on the ground for it to even hit them. They've walked over my net many times, so a proper buff/fix would be increasing the area of the trap activation. Why would anyone use submission net over shockwave for stunning troops when they dodge it 90% of the time (with an 8 second base cooldown to boot!)?

Why would anyone use Shockwave since it only really affects shieldless targets?

Because it does decent damage, briefly stuns shielded targets which can lead to a safer falcon paunch, detonates tech bursts, stuns ATLASES, and has great aoe. You have not used shockwave much, have you? Why would I use submission net when I know the enemy is going to dodge it 50% of the time, when I can just shockwave->headshot/paunch surf?

[GodlessPaladin]

ManixEther wrote...

Atheosis wrote...

ManixEther wrote...

While I appreciate the Bat Sent's (my favorite class) buffs, submission net is still terrible. The only use I have for it is against Phantoms, and you have to set it up on the ground for it to even hit them. They've walked over my net many times, so a proper buff/fix would be increasing the area of the trap activation. Why would anyone use submission net over shockwave for stunning troops when they dodge it 90% of the time (with an 8 second base cooldown to boot!)?

Why would anyone use Shockwave since it only really affects shieldless targets?

Because it does decent damage, briefly stuns shielded targets which can lead to a safer falcon paunch, detonates tech bursts, stuns ATLASES, and has great aoe. You have not used shockwave much, have you? Why would I use submission net when I know the enemy is going to dodge it 50% of the time, when I can just shockwave->headshot/paunch surf?

Batarian Soldier with Inferno Grenades and Ballistic Blades

[Creighton72]

Turian Sentinal is coming out to play this weekend. Beast mode. Now if I can only get the Saber to mark V so it's not heavy and can use Overload more often. 10 More months and I might get it. But I got Mark X Shotguns all over the place.

Hey any chance I can get more Medi Gel and Ammo clips from PSP packs? I am maxed already but I love getting stuff I don't need.

[ManixEther]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

ManixEther wrote...

Atheosis wrote...

ManixEther wrote...

While I appreciate the Bat Sent's (my favorite class) buffs, submission net is still terrible. The only use I have for it is against Phantoms, and you have to set it up on the ground for it to even hit them. They've walked over my net many times, so a proper buff/fix would be increasing the area of the trap activation. Why would anyone use submission net over shockwave for stunning troops when they dodge it 90% of the time (with an 8 second base cooldown to boot!)?

Why would anyone use Shockwave since it only really affects shieldless targets?

Because it does decent damage, briefly stuns shielded targets which can lead to a safer falcon paunch, detonates tech bursts, stuns ATLASES, and has great aoe. You have not used shockwave much, have you? Why would I use submission net when I know the enemy is going to dodge it 50% of the time, when I can just shockwave->headshot/paunch surf?

Batarian Soldier with Inferno Grenades and Ballistic Blades

I'm aware that the soldier is a lot better than the sentinel. I'm just giving him reasons on why spamming shockwave is better than the net. I'm not comparing the sentinel to any other class, so I don't see the point of bringing in the Batarian soldier (unless I'm missing the point).

[Xaijin]

Drummernate wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

@Drummer

Why don't you respond to what Cyonan's post about tanks actually says?  Which is that Human Vanguards fill the tank role better than Sentinels do.

The only problem with that is the fact that I only have to tap Y once and can run around with high damage reduction all the time even when at -200% recharge and packing uber heavy guns.

Vanguards need to have light weapons or use armor mods constantly to keep up their tankyness.

Plus vanguards always need to be in the middle of all the enemies to "tank" since they need to Bio Charge to regain health, which often leads to death, Krogans can tank from any distance.

Umm  no.

Geth Prime will shred a fully defensive sentinel in three shots. Vanguard has inv! frames to completely refute ANY damage at all while fully regaining shields no matter other actions are occuring. The utility gulf between those two paradigms pretty much invalidates your entire argument. Try playing the PC version sometime.

Modifié par Xaijin, 23 mai 2012 - 01:58 .

[Drummernate]

Xaijin wrote...

Drummernate wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

@Drummer

Why don't you respond to what Cyonan's post about tanks actually says?  Which is that Human Vanguards fill the tank role better than Sentinels do.

The only problem with that is the fact that I only have to tap Y once and can run around with high damage reduction all the time even when at -200% recharge and packing uber heavy guns.

Vanguards need to have light weapons or use armor mods constantly to keep up their tankyness.

Plus vanguards always need to be in the middle of all the enemies to "tank" since they need to Bio Charge to regain health, which often leads to death, Krogans can tank from any distance.

Umm  no.

Geth Prime will shred a fully defensive sentinel in three shots. Vanguard has inv! frames to completely refute ANY damage at all. The utility gulf between those tow paradigms pretty much invalidates your entire argument. Try playing the PC version sometime.

Uhh... no.

When on full defense 3 shots barely gets his shields down.

PC is the same as Xbox as far as I know other than enemies aiming faster and at longer ranges. (From what I have heard)

[Xaijin]

Drummernate wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

Drummernate wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

@Drummer

Why don't you respond to what Cyonan's post about tanks actually says?  Which is that Human Vanguards fill the tank role better than Sentinels do.

The only problem with that is the fact that I only have to tap Y once and can run around with high damage reduction all the time even when at -200% recharge and packing uber heavy guns.

Vanguards need to have light weapons or use armor mods constantly to keep up their tankyness.

Plus vanguards always need to be in the middle of all the enemies to "tank" since they need to Bio Charge to regain health, which often leads to death, Krogans can tank from any distance.

Umm  no.

Geth Prime will shred a fully defensive sentinel in three shots. Vanguard has inv! frames to completely refute ANY damage at all. The utility gulf between those tow paradigms pretty much invalidates your entire argument. Try playing the PC version sometime.

Uhh... no.

When on full defense 3 shots barely gets his shields down.

PC is the same as Xbox as far as I know other than enemies aiming faster and at longer ranges. (From what I have heard)

Wrong. That's kinda the problem with forming opinions without having tested them long term under multiple sets of conditions. Shields is what we're talking about btw. Being stunlocked pretty much makes anything but hitting 6 on the kb moot, which pretty much invalidates "tank" and replaces it with "target of opportunity." I can hit the Ops pack button with any character, which kinda renders the krogan's unique traits completely redundant.

Modifié par Xaijin, 23 mai 2012 - 02:03 .

[Feneckus]

 I find it hard to believe that some people on the bioware forums do not know what a tank is.

It's like someone on nba.com who's never heard of Michael Jordan.