550 réponses à ce sujet

[jsadalia]

TSA_383 wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

You're not going to get through to him...

Yeah, sorry, I'm not really one for rejecting in-game evidence based solely on the fact that it hurts your argument.

So these assumptions:
-Shepard can survive being at the epicentre of a multi-megaton explosion.
-Just because the leader of the reapers is taking the form of a child shepard's been dreaming about doesn't mean they're inside your head at all.
-Anderson can teleport.
-Shepard can survive being at the epicentre of a multi-megaton explosion. Without a helmet.
-The dreams full of reaper noises are a normal PTSD symptom.
-The leader of the reapers is totally telling the truth and is someone we can trust.
-The reaper idea of "synthesis" isn't the exact idea that's caused them to create all the synthetic-organic hybrids we've been fighting since the start of ME1.
-Shepard can survive being at the epicentre of a multi-megaton explosion. Without a helmet. In space.
-Bioware wrote an ending to encourage speculation that should be taken at face value.


Make more sense than these ones:
-Reapers are doing exactly what they've done in every ME game so far; indoctrinating people.

1. You don't know it's a multi-megaton explosion. I've read some of the supposed evidence for this. It's problematic to say the least.
2. I think it's clear the catalyst can read Shepard's mind, at least to some degree. So what? Reading does not mean influencing.
3. Or he came out somewhere else, closer to the chamber in which you meet him. We don't know how the beam technology works. And Shepard could have been out for a couple of minutes after beaming. We see him groaning and lifting himself off the floor. That looks like someone who's been unconscious.
4. My Shep's had her helmetless ass kicked, shot, and exploded for three games without a scratch.
5. For someone fighting the Reapers, who has several times been forcefully exposed to mental images of their work, who fears they might shortly destroy everything he or she loves and holds dear? It's hardly beyond the bounds of possibility.
6. The Catalyst has been changed by the Crucible. That's one of the main things the Crucible does.
7. Synthesis as portrayed in the game is silly, but has next to nothing in common with the forcible implantation of cybernetics used in husks, etc.
8. The Citadel is and always has been in space. Somehow people live there. And no it is not shown to be destroyed.
9. There is plenty to speculate about even taking the current endings at face value. Example: where the hell is the Normandy?

and 10. That's not how indoctrination works as previously portrayed in the game.  Subtle whispers.

Modifié par jsadalia, 25 mai 2012 - 05:37 .

[Jamie9]

TSA_383 wrote...


So these assumptions:
-Shepard can survive being at the epicentre of a multi-megaton explosion.
-Just because the leader of the reapers is taking the form of a child shepard's been dreaming about doesn't mean they're inside your head at all.
-Anderson can teleport.
-Shepard can survive being at the epicentre of a multi-megaton explosion. Without a helmet.
-The dreams full of reaper noises are a normal PTSD symptom.
-The leader of the reapers is totally telling the truth and is someone we can trust.
-The reaper idea of "synthesis" isn't the exact idea that's caused them to create all the synthetic-organic hybrids we've been fighting since the start of ME1.
-Shepard can survive being at the epicentre of a multi-megaton explosion. Without a helmet. In space.
-Bioware wrote an ending to encourage speculation that should be taken at face value.


Make more sense than these ones:
-Reapers are doing exactly what they've done in every ME game so far; indoctrinating people.

Also:

-Harbinger decides that defending the only point the Reapers can be defeated at is pointless, and leaves Shepard AND Anderson to walk through the beam.
-The same transition when "getting up" is the one used in the dreams and the Geth consensus. It is only used in these places.
-The same sound at a different pitch is used when entering a dream and when "getting up".
-Random unlimited ammo.
-Anderson gets shot and dies. Shepard suddenly has a wound in the exact same place and shortly after passes out. The camera deliberately lingers on the wound.
-TIM has impossible powers.
-Admiral Hackett is psychic but still doesn't send backup.
-TIM dies but doesn't bleed. At all.
-Shepard is not being remotely Shepard-like in this sequence at all, no matter how you play your character.
-Shepard's eyes turn indoctrinated (TIM's eyes) in the control and synthesis endings.
-Starchild: "I control the Reapers." then "So you think you can destroy us." He can't control the Reapers and be the Reapers at the same time. US.
-Shepard is somehow immune to indoctrination when every character that has spent the amount of time around Reaper tech as Shepard has is not.
-The squad mates can teleport.

[Asharad Hett]

Jamie9 wrote...


-Anderson gets shot and dies. Shepard suddenly has a wound in the exact same place and shortly after passes out. The camera deliberately lingers on the wound.

And Anderson isn't nursing the wound when he dies.   He only nurses it for a few seconds after being shot, and then never seems to be bothered by it again (until he dies, transferring the wound to Shep)

[Jamie9]

Asharad Hett wrote...

Jamie9 wrote...


-Anderson gets shot and dies. Shepard suddenly has a wound in the exact same place and shortly after passes out. The camera deliberately lingers on the wound.

And Anderson isn't nursing the wound when he dies.   He only nurses it for a few seconds after being shot, and then never seems to be bothered by it again (until he dies, transferring the wound to Shep)

Very true. I also forgot to mention that Shepard passes out (and pretty much would die there and then), but is then able to run and jump (in the synthesis ending) completely fine. Adrenaline doesn't do that much.

[mmmpollo]

Haha I think a lot of pro-ITers are mistaken when they're arguing with anti-ITers. We ALL agree a lot of things in the ending don't make sense. The difference is pro-ITers seem to think that since something doesn't make sense, it means indoctrination (i.e. dream state). Like half the posts using bullet points simply state things that don't make sense, like Shepard surviving a huge blast in space. Yes, it's illogical. No, it doesn't necessarily mean he's indoctrinated. It's could just be a plothole. Some pro-ITers have to understand the difference...

[Kunari801]

Kings19 wrote...

Believe it was their original intention when they launched the game? No.

Believe if they will use it in the EC? Maybe.

^- That works for me.  

If done right in the EC I could accept it but I don't think that was the original intent.

[jsadalia]

Jamie9 wrote...


-Anderson gets shot and dies. Shepard suddenly has a wound in the exact same place and shortly after passes out. The camera deliberately lingers on the wound.

Shepard has the wound before meeting (or shooting) Anderson.

Image of Shep holding his wound:
Video of Shep holding his wound:www.youtube.com/watch, at about 2:58.

The camera lingers because Anderson is dead and Shepard thinks he's about to die, too.

Modifié par jsadalia, 25 mai 2012 - 06:22 .

[BatmanTurian]

mmmpollo wrote...

Haha I think a lot of pro-ITers are mistaken when they're arguing with anti-ITers. We ALL agree a lot of things in the ending don't make sense. The difference is pro-ITers seem to think that since something doesn't make sense, it means indoctrination (i.e. dream state). Like half the posts using bullet points simply state things that don't make sense, like Shepard surviving a huge blast in space. Yes, it's illogical. No, it doesn't necessarily mean he's indoctrinated. It's could just be a plothole. Some pro-ITers have to understand the difference...

We're just using a plot mechanic and legitimate reaper power that has already been there since ME1 to explain something that doesn't make sense, because it wouldn't make sense if it was a dream. Do your dreams make sense? I had a dream that I was friends with Kristin Bell last night. We took a walk on a terraformed Mars. That makes no sense because I don't even know the woman besides that she's a celebrity, she's not my type so I don't have a crush on her, Mars isn't terraformed, and would never be terraformed in my or her lifetime.

Of course, in Shepard's case it's a lucid dream controlled by another but the comparison still stands. This is a Reaper power established since the beginning of the series. We did not make up indoctrination out of thin air, like people imply.

[sistersafetypin]

mmmpollo wrote...

Haha I think a lot of pro-ITers are mistaken when they're arguing with anti-ITers. We ALL agree a lot of things in the ending don't make sense. The difference is pro-ITers seem to think that since something doesn't make sense, it means indoctrination (i.e. dream state). Like half the posts using bullet points simply state things that don't make sense, like Shepard surviving a huge blast in space. Yes, it's illogical. No, it doesn't necessarily mean he's indoctrinated. It's could just be a plothole. Some pro-ITers have to understand the difference...

this, this, THIS

[Nethalf]

Is that not a fake Chris' account on HTL forums? I can see Chris hasn't written here or in his twitter account.

[Krushiev01]

jsadalia wrote...

Jamie9 wrote...


-Anderson gets shot and dies. Shepard suddenly has a wound in the exact same place and shortly after passes out. The camera deliberately lingers on the wound.

Shepard has the wound before meeting (or shooting) Anderson.

Image of Shep holding his wound:
Video of Shep holding his wound:www.youtube.com/watch, at about 2:58.

The camera lingers because Anderson is dead and Shepard thinks he's about to die, too.

Actually, Shep in all scenes before shooting Anderson, he's favoring his right side.  Even in the pic above he's clutching the right side of his stomach, with his left side fully extended, like he got punched or bruised on the right side.

After shooting Anderson, Shep's bleeding out his left.

Not for or against IT (still on the fence here), but the quote above is inaccurate.

[Krushiev01]

Doublepost

Modifié par Krushiev01, 25 mai 2012 - 06:36 .

[dreamgazer]

mmmpollo wrote...

Haha I think a lot of pro-ITers are mistaken when they're arguing with anti-ITers. We ALL agree a lot of things in the ending don't make sense. The difference is pro-ITers seem to think that since something doesn't make sense, it means indoctrination (i.e. dream state). Like half the posts using bullet points simply state things that don't make sense, like Shepard surviving a huge blast in space. Yes, it's illogical. No, it doesn't necessarily mean he's indoctrinated. It's could just be a plothole. Some pro-ITers have to understand the difference...

You're forgetting about the narrative elements and visual cues that actually do make sense, and aren't mere game hiccups.

I partially agree with your statement, but it's avoiding another element of the interpretation altogether.

[Jamie9]

EDIT: No sense is to be made from this post. Move along.

Modifié par Jamie9, 25 mai 2012 - 06:42 .

[excelon]

Kunari801 wrote...

Kings19 wrote...

Believe it was their original intention when they launched the game? No.

Believe if they will use it in the EC? Maybe.

^- That works for me.  

If done right in the EC I could accept it but I don't think that was the original intent.

Don't think so, IT was essentially created by the fans.

[BatmanTurian]

Nethalf wrote...

Is that not a fake Chris' account on HTL forums? I can see Chris hasn't written here or in his twitter account.

As it was said earlier in the thread, Chris confirmed that it was his account. You may ask him on twitter or go find it. It's legitimate.

[Jamie9]

mmmpollo wrote...

Haha I think a lot of pro-ITers are mistaken when they're arguing with anti-ITers. We ALL agree a lot of things in the ending don't make sense. The difference is pro-ITers seem to think that since something doesn't make sense, it means indoctrination (i.e. dream state). Like half the posts using bullet points simply state things that don't make sense, like Shepard surviving a huge blast in space. Yes, it's illogical. No, it doesn't necessarily mean he's indoctrinated. It's could just be a plothole. Some pro-ITers have to understand the difference...

I do understand the difference. I have no problem with people being anti-IT. My opinion is just that. My opinion. It is worth as much as your opinion, or the next guy's opinion. You have to understand that some pro-ITers DO understand the difference.

Anyway, things like the musical cues and the white circular fade-in transition was purposely put in there. Now that doesn't mean IT is true, it just is solid evidence.

[mmmpollo]

dreamgazer wrote...

mmmpollo wrote...

Haha I think a lot of pro-ITers are mistaken when they're arguing with anti-ITers. We ALL agree a lot of things in the ending don't make sense. The difference is pro-ITers seem to think that since something doesn't make sense, it means indoctrination (i.e. dream state). Like half the posts using bullet points simply state things that don't make sense, like Shepard surviving a huge blast in space. Yes, it's illogical. No, it doesn't necessarily mean he's indoctrinated. It's could just be a plothole. Some pro-ITers have to understand the difference...

You're forgetting about the narrative elements and visual cues that actually do make sense, and aren't mere game hiccups.

I partially agree with your statement, but it's avoiding another element of the interpretation altogether.

I was only addressing the points people make with regards to non-sensical plotholes.  The narrative and visual cues people have pointed out definitely do have merit, though it is equally plausible that people are just reading too much into nothing.  I myself thought the kid in the beginning never really existed.  I'm ultra sensitive to these ploys after watching the sixth sense back in the day haha.

[Vox Draco]

BatmanTurian wrote...

mmmpollo wrote...

Haha I think a lot of pro-ITers are mistaken when they're arguing with anti-ITers. We ALL agree a lot of things in the ending don't make sense. The difference is pro-ITers seem to think that since something doesn't make sense, it means indoctrination (i.e. dream state). Like half the posts using bullet points simply state things that don't make sense, like Shepard surviving a huge blast in space. Yes, it's illogical. No, it doesn't necessarily mean he's indoctrinated. It's could just be a plothole. Some pro-ITers have to understand the difference...

We're just using a plot mechanic and legitimate reaper power that has already been there since ME1 to explain something that doesn't make sense, because it wouldn't make sense if it was a dream. Do your dreams make sense? I had a dream that I was friends with Kristin Bell last night. We took a walk on a terraformed Mars. That makes no sense because I don't even know the woman besides that she's a celebrity, she's not my type so I don't have a crush on her, Mars isn't terraformed, and would never be terraformed in my or her lifetime.

Of course, in Shepard's case it's a lucid dream controlled by another but the comparison still stands. This is a Reaper power established since the beginning of the series. We did not make up indoctrination out of thin air, like people imply.

And it still makes me wonder why this should be a bad or silly thing. Indoctrination plays a significant role in all three games, so why not use it at the climax of the series, as the last true challenge Shepard has to overcome? Indoctrination is Biowares idea, they made it up in the first place and gave us more insight on how it works with every new game. So why shouldn't bioware use their own idea to salvage the ending of this wonderful franchise? And again: why would this make no sense?

She destroyed all kinds of enemies using guns and fleets and spaceships and whatnot. But if this final confrontation takes place in Shepard's mind, fighting against the most insidious of all Reaper weapons...I think this idea is awesome, no matter if intended or not...

It is so much better in my eyes than any literal explanation of the endings...and there are countless fun and thrilling ways to expand on this idea. Bioware would be silly to ignore these possibilites, and I would always buy a DLC like, you know, having shepard fight a final fight to Retake Earth and the Galaxy...retaking Omega pales in comparison and doesn't interest me at all...

[Bourne Endeavor]

Opsrbest wrote...

What is the point of asking people if they believe in IDT? Really .........

Goddamn origins. Should have waited and bought a box version.

To gauge where people stand regarding the ending. Support for the Indoctrination Theory is essentially saying you would rather "it all be a dream" than for BioWare to attempt any further clarity of what currently exists. It gives them an indication of people's perspective in a direct manner. Granted, BioWare could be legitimately intrigued by the concept given its creativity and how strongly the theme associating to the actual plot.

[RADIUMEYEZ]

Oh damn that poll is moving right along. I am enjoying this it's kind of like watching an election lol.

[Mcfly616]

RADIUMEYEZ wrote...

Oh damn that poll is moving right along. I am enjoying this it's kind of like watching an election lol.

Yup....a landslide election....similar to what we'll see this fall.....

Haha it is amusing though....finally having a direct question from Bioware and being able to give them a direct answer back....fun indeed

[Geneaux486]

No, Bioware sold us a complete product. Flawed yes, but complete. They simply didn't expect such monumental backlash. I never assumed that the IT was planned for inclusion in the final product (although it is stated in the final hours app that Bioware experimented with it), but there is enough in-game "evidence" behind the theory that it is not entirely far-fetched if it became a reality.

If the EC runs with the IT it won't be because they "planned it", but rather a genuine attempt to please an upset fanbase. 

I'm aware that Bioware sold us a complete product, seeing as how I don't believe IT was planned from the start.  They experiemented with the idea, yes, but that involved the player loosing control over Shepard's body, so it was pretty blatant, and it was scrapped because the mechanic interfered with dialogue choices or similar.  I'm still of the belief that simply filling in some gaps, answering some unanswered questions, and giving us a longer epilogue, can save the endings just fine.  The basic concepts behind them are quite sound.

You're right....everything is so logical.and realistic in those last 10 minutes.....you know....like Anderson saying that he followed you up the beam, yet there was nobody left standing near the beam except the face/off between Shep and Marauder Shields....

As you're making your way to the Citadel beam you can clearly see other soldiers starting to regain conciousness.  Just because he wasn't right behind you doesn't mean he didn't follow you.

ok......so how did he.get to the control.panel?

I know this is far-fetched but I think he walked up to it.  Same way Shepard did. 

Oh, did I mention Shepard is standing in OUTERSPACE with no OXYGEN!....

One or more of the developers commented on this, that using kinetic barriers the Citadel's defense mechanisms can create atmosphere where none exists should the station get damaged or some such ****.  Not surprising, seeing as how kinetic barriers are used to explain a good many things in the Mass Effect universe.  How do you figure characters like Miranda can survive on missions that take place in places with no atmosphere wearing nothing but an oxygen mask while Shepard's got a helmet?  How about the way Joker's cockpit is still pressurized at the beginning of Mass Effect 2 while everything behind him is completely exposed to the vacuum of space?

Because as far as I can tell, one could say the same thing to people who think the last 10 minutes is actually "real"....where's their proof? Because ReaperBieber, oops, I mean, because StarBrat said so?

Umm yeah....no

Also the game says so.  And the ending cinematics, which revert to an audience-neutral perspective as Shepard's stream of conciousness ends, confirm it as well.  There's no burden of proof on people insisting that the current cannon is that the endings are real, because the proof is there in plain sight.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 25 mai 2012 - 09:38 .

[ssltrain]

The poll's interesting and I give Preistly credit for going over there and asking the question but asking the Hold The Liners if they like IT is like going to a fat camp and asking the kids if they like cake.

[Mcfly616]

@Geneaux486

Not going to quote it because its massive....but let me easily dismiss all of your rebuttles....

Never, anywhere after Harbingers beam, is anybody alive...walked around searching an astronomical amount of times only to find ANDERSON IS NOT THERE!!!!!

Dismissed

Second off: making it to the console first....

Yeah your right FAR FETCHED IS ACTUALLY AN UNDERSTATEMENT.....It's farther than anybody would fetch.....well, in your case, apparently not....

Dismissed


Next up: Shepard is in OUTERSPACE without OXYGEN

I would love a link to any particular statement from a Bioware employee that concretely states that.Shep is able to live in this environment due to mass effect fields.....its okay....I know you can't....but even though you can't, let me also state that never is it stated throughout the entire trilogy, that the Citadel is sitting in a Mass Effect bubble...

The mass effect fields on the Citadel contain oxygen in the living areas(I.e. the wards and presidium).....Note that Shepard is in fact Outside of the Citadel....you know, on the outer wall....where NOBODY GOES....

Oh, and about Joker surviving the hull breach in the beginning of ME2, you can clearly see that Shepard steps into a Mass Effect field while pulling him out of the cockpit.....no evidence of a ME field is ever shown or referenced during the StarBrat scene....

Dismissed

as for cinematics demonstrating anything.....well I didn't see EDI and the Geth DIE....and I saw Shepard WAKE UP .......So no the ending.cinematics do not prove ReaperBieber was telling the TRUTH

DISMISSED.....

Modifié par Mcfly616, 25 mai 2012 - 10:09 .