54 réponses à ce sujet

[Sabyn]

This post is completely out of my character, my first on any game forum ever. That being said I am an avid gamer, especially of bioware games, going back to BDG. To preface this post as well, this is my 1st playthrough of DA: origions and my perception of Alistair's character could be effected by the paths I have chosen earlier in these past few weeks, but from the story that I have been participating in for that time, his character either seems inconsistent (underdeveloped for a bioware game) or it is a brilliant philosophical contrast of character traits.

From the perspective I have played, he presents both as a prepubesant, alienated, bastard, virgin, and conversely, a completely ideological representation of justice, virtue, and vengance. I can't understand how these traits can be reconciled within the storyline I have experienced, especially after playing a game like Planescape Torment where the options evoked profound thought about both the characters and philosophy. Why would a 20 something, incompetant, smelly (accoriding to his conversations with Wynn about his socks), insecure and somewhat dimwitted virgin turn down social acceptance, a position of undeserved leadership, wealth, security and getting laid? In my experience thats a pretty rare combination in itself. Not to mention the other aspect's of his character, those of virtue, justice and vengance (based on his reactions during the landsmeet). He refuses everything that would remedy the inadaquacies of his most often expressed character traits in the storyline in order to execute Logain and leave the country fractured and impotent in the name of ideological "eye for an eye" justice?

The duplicity of alistair's character throughout this game leads me to think that either he is an underdeveloped, poorly written character, or I must come to the conclusion that the developer's of this game are making an explicit statement about the archetypical construct of the truely blind, just, virtuous, and vengeful political ideal.

Reguardless of intent (maybe im presupposing to much), alistair will be my **** character for every subsuquent playthrough of this game, and thank you bioware for creating such a provocative piece of literature. 

[Antikristine]

The short answer is that Alistair is insecure. He doesn't believe that he would be able to take on the role as king. That's why you have the option of hardening him throughout the plot.

[Original182]

Well he did give some answers to your questions. He doesn't want royalty because he's afraid people will start to change around him. He wants people to like him because he is Alistair, not because he is the king and if you don't he'll sic his guards on you. He just wants to be Alistair.

His upbringing also reveals some deep-seated problems that royalty caused him. To the commoners in the Chantry, he is a stuck up snob. To the nobles, he is a bastard.

To me there's no duplicity. His explanation is good enough.

[HarlequinDream]

Original182 wrote...

Well he did give some answers to your questions. He doesn't want royalty because he's afraid people will start to change around him. He wants people to like him because he is Alistair, not because he is the king and if you don't he'll sic his guards on you. He just wants to be Alistair.
His upbringing also reveals some deep-seated problems that royalty caused him. To the commoners in the Chantry, he is a stuck up snob. To the nobles, he is a bastard.
To me there's no duplicity. His explanation is good enough.

I think there was great consistency in Alistair.

One of the very first conversations he and Morrigan have when you're wandering around Lothering is that he (a senior Gray Warden, if only by a few months) is deferring to a new recruit. He tells Morrigan point blank that he prefers to follow.

Throughout the entire thing, he wants to do what's right and serve as a Gray Warden. He wants revenge on Loghain, but I doubt we can deny that he's justified in that. He never asks to be put on the throne, never wants it. He rises to the occassion, yes, but it isn't where he's happiest.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

When you've been raised and told your entire life that you are not going to become King nor are you ever fit to be one, it is hard to overcome those taught obstacles even when everything arounds you makes it that you MUST be King.



Alistar isn't really that inconsistent or underdeveloped, pay attention to his upbringing and you'll find yourself sympathizing with him far more easily.

[DarkSpiral]

I have always felt that Alistair is a bit like a puppy. Come to think of it, Wynne describes Calin the same way, though not perhaps for the same reasons. He's cute, hard to not want to cuddle, and desperately wants someone to love him. Alistair that is, not Cailin.



A side note. If you ever take time to ask Anora about Cailin, the description she gives you is almost a perfect description of Alistair, as well. One wonders what Maric was like, as a man. Perhaps neither apple fell far from the tree.



I have never once liked him. His idolized vision of what the Grey Wardens are, as an order, is at odds with my own, his sense of humor never fails to completely irritate me, and his hypocrisy both at the much-discussed Landsmeet scene, and at the equally-discussed scene after Arl Eamon is restored (assuming you either killed Isolde or Connor) absolutely pisses me off. He dares to condem you, yet offers no alternatives to the situation (yes yes, I know you don't lose anything by waiting to go to the Circle and get help, but that is a limitation of the game's design and reflects very badly on the very core of the game's advertsied intent: That sometimes you have to make hard choices) that would have made the outcome more palatable to him,



He is incredibly well written. The voice acting is top notch. I don't hold characters in contempt like this if they're two dimensional. I just think he's a child in a man's body.

[Chragen]

While I agree there is some blank holes in the character along with a lot of other parts of the game.
I think it is pretty consistent with Alistairs personally. It's quite common for people to avoid major attention even if it means getting a lot of benefits.

Though what I wish was covered more or even showed before everything goes to hell at Ostagar is Alistairs real relationship with the Grey Wardens and Duncan especially. Though we might get some more insight to that when Return to Ostagar is released.

But what I at least got out of the conversations with Alistair is that he considers the Gray Wardens to be his real family. It's the first time he felt at home. So even though it would have made sense for Alistair to accept Loghain living with enough persuasion along with maybe more insight to why Loghain did what he did.

But revenge is a very strong emotion that surpasses logic and reason. So by Alistairs own sense of justice killing Loghain no matter the consequences is worth it, even though it will never bring back Duncan or any of the other Gray Wardens.

[PinkShira]

David Gaider has spoken on these forums that he knows his character best and that he sees nothing wrong with what his character says and does at the Landsmeet. Now I totally respect David and his writing, but I do believe he is wrong here. I think David has forgotten one important thing... the passage of time and how long Alistair has been in your presence. Alistair is with Duncan and the Grey Wardens for 6 months prior to your arrival. They become his family and Duncan his father. Then they are killed and he is devastated. Now the only one Alistair has is the PC/you. You now guide every moment and decision in the game. I asked how much time had passed from Ostagar til the Landsmeet and was met with answers from at minimum 1 year to what most agree to be around 2 years. If you are a female and are romancing him, you are not only his leader, but a mother and a lover. Yes Freudian...deal with it. So to me with sooo much time having passed, you would be the total center of Alistair's universe... especially if you are female and his lover.. something he thought he would never have. So I can not see Alistair going against anything you would say at this point. Having him side with Duncan a man he only knew for 6 months or you a woman he now loves and known for 2 years, he would pick you every time. Just like husbands pick their wives over their parents... and those people have been with their parents longer than Alistair was with Duncan. David would say here I just don't know the character well enough then. And I would argue here, then that is his fault for not flushing him out more. Once you write a character it is no longer yours... it becomes the readers. And I am not alone in my thoughts here.



Sorry for the big long block paragraph.

[unroguelike]

Alistair's reactions to my decisions during the landsmeet caught me by surprise.



I thought he never wanted to be king yet when he got pissed off when I supported anora to be queen. Maybe because he was antagonised by the fact that I spared loghain?

[heretica]

"Once you write a character it is no longer yours... it becomes the readers."



I'm not sure about that. :-m He designed the character, for us to enjoy.. Discussing is okay, i think he can extract many positive ideas/views reading opinions like yours, but saying what you said feels a bit of a strong thing to say to a person (writter in this case) that has devoted some of his time to create something from scratch.



My point is that giving some feedback is always useful. Telling a writter what to do with his character, his creation... seems a bit unrespectful to me. I'm not saying that you are doing this, of course, just my opinion.

[Antikristine]

Catt128 wrote...

"Once you write a character it is no longer yours... it becomes the readers."

I definitely agree with this one, but I don't think this justifies what PinkShira says about understanding Alistair better than David Gaider does.

I like to see fictional characters as autonomous individuals. Once written, it's no longer the author's, but it's not solely dependent on the reader either. What we think about other individuals, whether they are fictional or real, is our interpretations of them - and not the only reality. This means that although you've been travelling with Alistair for two years, you don't know his behaviour completely. Human beings are strange in that way. I have known my fiance for 7 years, but he can still surprise me. This is also the case with the relationship between Alistair and the PC. 

That said, I don't think Alistair's claim that the Grey Wardens was his family as contradictory at all. It was his first meeting with something that reminded him of a family, and it became the most important precisely because it was the first. This doesn't mean that he doesn't see his travelling companions as a family too.   

[heretica]

Antikristine wrote...

Catt128 wrote...

"Once you write a character it is no longer yours... it becomes the readers."

I definitely agree with this one, but I don't think this justifies what PinkShira says about understanding Alistair better than David Gaider does.

I like to see fictional characters as autonomous individuals. Once written, it's no longer the author's, but it's not solely dependent on the reader either. What we think about other individuals, whether they are fictional or real, is our interpretations of them - and not the only reality. This means that although you've been travelling with Alistair for two years, you don't know his behaviour completely. Human beings are strange in that way. I have known my fiance for 7 years, but he can still surprise me. This is also the case with the relationship between Alistair and the PC. 

That said, I don't think Alistair's claim that the Grey Wardens was his family as contradictory at all. It was his first meeting with something that reminded him of a family, and it became the most important precisely because it was the first. This doesn't mean that he doesn't see his travelling companions as a family too.   

Oh sorry, i forgot to quote!!! It was not my sentence, i took it from her post!

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sabyn wrote...
 He refuses everything that would remedy the inadaquacies of his most often expressed character traits in the storyline in order to execute Logain and leave the country fractured and impotent in the name of ideological "eye for an eye" justice? 
 

Quite the contrary - keeping Loghain alive is a very dangerous and politicly stupid move that's more likely to fracture the country further then killing him.

Thats said, Al is one of my favorite character. He really loosk completre. I don't get why you consider him incosistent. Some poeple simply have no desire for great power.

[menasure]

he is consistent for me. i my last play i gave him some tough comments in the first dialogues which set the relation to a pretty hostile state. i left him at the camp and ignored him pretty much, never gave a gift and when i did talk to him it was only to taunt him some more. eventually he simply did not respond anymore when i asked about something. when the landsmeet started he had -82 approval, was untoughened and acting inconsisten or rather consistent accordingly as the man who nobody would have wanted as king, which reflected his own state of mind ... and my own because that's exactly why i ended up making him king, out of grudge because my character could not rule. it's also funny to see a king in his underwear, which redeemed much of the irritating plot for me haha.

Modifié par menasure, 10 décembre 2009 - 12:42 .

[PinkShira]

Well, I am not a writer by any stretch of the imagination. Give me numbers! That being said, I can tell by the posts following mine, that my writing did not come off as I intended. I did not in any way mean to disrespect David Gaider. If it wasn't for his wonderful writing, I wouldn't be on these forums discussing him or the passion I have inside to find out more. I only meant to say "maybe" he forgot to take in the passage of time. Writers are not perfect. Humans are not perfect. I am not perfect. I might have been a bit harsh when I said he was wrong and for that I apologize, yes he should know the character better than I. But there are sooo many posts on here talking about the shock of some things Alistair does at the Landsmeet, that it does bring up the question... were we given enough information to see this coming? Yes, if the timing was only a few months after Ostagar, but no if it was 2 years. And yes, there are just my opinions. Isn't that what these forums are for... to give your opinion? But again, I apologize to David if he took offense at my post. I did have on my profile that I wanted to take him to dinner and talk, because talking through writing isn't my forte.

[Lotion Soronarr]

PinkShira wrote...
David Gaider has spoken on these forums that he knows his character best and that he sees nothing wrong with what his character says and does at the Landsmeet. Now I totally respect David and his writing, but I do believe he is wrong here. I think David has forgotten one important thing... the passage of time and how long Alistair has been in your presence. Alistair is with Duncan and the Grey Wardens for 6 months prior to your arrival. They become his family and Duncan his father. Then they are killed and he is devastated. Now the only one Alistair has is the PC/you. You now guide every moment and decision in the game. I asked how much time had passed from Ostagar til the Landsmeet and was met with answers from at minimum 1 year to what most agree to be around 2 years. If you are a female and are romancing him, you are not only his leader, but a mother and a lover. Yes Freudian...deal with it. So to me with sooo much time having passed, you would be the total center of Alistair's universe... especially if you are female and his lover.. something he thought he would never have. So I can not see Alistair going against anything you would say at this point. Having him side with Duncan a man he only knew for 6 months or you a woman he now loves and known for 2 years, he would pick you every time. Just like husbands pick their wives over their parents... and those people have been with their parents longer than Alistair was with Duncan. David would say here I just don't know the character well enough then. And I would argue here, then that is his fault for not flushing him out more. Once you write a character it is no longer yours... it becomes the readers. And I am not alone in my thoughts here.

Alistair has been a warden for 6 months - it's reasonable to assume he's been with Duncan longer than that, as Duncan gathered recruits before the joining.

Aha..and I see you think you should the "total center of his universe". What rubbish. And they say womne don't want to control men

There's people I've known my whole life who'd I'd sent to hell (verbally) if they did what I'd consider wrong on such a big level (as Alistair did consider the PC doing at the landsmeet.) You're equating love and respect/friendship with total obedience and becoming a YesMan.

[menasure]

PinkShira wrote...

Well, I am not a writer by any stretch of the imagination. Give me numbers! That being said, I can tell by the posts following mine, that my writing did not come off as I intended. I did not in any way mean to disrespect David Gaider. If it wasn't for his wonderful writing, I wouldn't be on these forums discussing him or the passion I have inside to find out more. I only meant to say "maybe" he forgot to take in the passage of time. Writers are not perfect. Humans are not perfect. I am not perfect. I might have been a bit harsh when I said he was wrong and for that I apologize, yes he should know the character better than I. But there are sooo many posts on here talking about the shock of some things Alistair does at the Landsmeet, that it does bring up the question... were we given enough information to see this coming? Yes, if the timing was only a few months after Ostagar, but no if it was 2 years. And yes, there are just my opinions. Isn't that what these forums are for... to give your opinion? But again, I apologize to David if he took offense at my post. I did have on my profile that I wanted to take him to dinner and talk, because talking through writing isn't my forte.

the writer should know that a character's personality changes in game according to the chosen text options and the actions you make. he had his vision, others will have their own and the character mechanism is not static at all and even if it would be static then the same phrases can always mean something different when heard by different minds. i also see no reason to believe any of the writing is wrong by itself but it is written with a certain vision on how things would evolve while players will not always follow that same line consistently while the cut scenes are not endless ... which makes some parts of game characters unpredictable. i'm for example pretty sure my alistair is not the same as the most others have seen in game because i do make rather unconventional choices at times.

[PinkShira]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

PinkShira wrote...
David Gaider has spoken on these forums that he knows his character best and that he sees nothing wrong with what his character says and does at the Landsmeet. Now I totally respect David and his writing, but I do believe he is wrong here. I think David has forgotten one important thing... the passage of time and how long Alistair has been in your presence. Alistair is with Duncan and the Grey Wardens for 6 months prior to your arrival. They become his family and Duncan his father. Then they are killed and he is devastated. Now the only one Alistair has is the PC/you. You now guide every moment and decision in the game. I asked how much time had passed from Ostagar til the Landsmeet and was met with answers from at minimum 1 year to what most agree to be around 2 years. If you are a female and are romancing him, you are not only his leader, but a mother and a lover. Yes Freudian...deal with it. So to me with sooo much time having passed, you would be the total center of Alistair's universe... especially if you are female and his lover.. something he thought he would never have. So I can not see Alistair going against anything you would say at this point. Having him side with Duncan a man he only knew for 6 months or you a woman he now loves and known for 2 years, he would pick you every time. Just like husbands pick their wives over their parents... and those people have been with their parents longer than Alistair was with Duncan. David would say here I just don't know the character well enough then. And I would argue here, then that is his fault for not flushing him out more. Once you write a character it is no longer yours... it becomes the readers. And I am not alone in my thoughts here.

Alistair has been a warden for 6 months - it's reasonable to assume he's been with Duncan longer than that, as Duncan gathered recruits before the joining.

Aha..and I see you think you should the "total center of his universe". What rubbish. And they say womne don't want to control men

There's people I've known my whole life who'd I'd sent to hell (verbally) if they did what I'd consider wrong on such a big level (as Alistair did consider the PC doing at the landsmeet.) You're equating love and respect/friendship with total obedience and becoming a YesMan.

Sigh... read my second post.  But just so you know "I" don't think that I should be his total center of the universe...  I think Alistair is written in a way that HE would see it that way.  And I don't want to control men in rl, but lets face it... we are totally in control of Alistair in this game.  When you even try to give him the lead, which I did try early on he freaked out and said no I prefer to follow.  HE is a YesMan.  So please don't try and put what I said about a video game character written in a certain way, as to what I think of men in real life.

[Ploobs]

I have actually had this discussion with several male friends who have played through the game. Most of them found Alistair to be a complete "Magoo" and irritating as hell. They point to his Landsmeet decision as the most frustrating thing, because if Loghain becomes a Grey Warden -he- can sleep with Morgain and no one dies or -he- can take the killing blow of the archdemon. But that's rather meta, isn't it.. because we don't know either of those things at the Landsmeet.



I love the well thought out responses in this thread and not just the knee-jerk "he's a little whiny b****!"



I thought that Alistair was genius writing and very three demensional. He isn't just a cardboard cutout "romance" option. His mother was a maid who the King forced his attentions on (or so it is said). If you talk to Loghain, you get quite a bit more of this story. How Maric wanted to acknowledge his "mistake" and raise Alistair as a royal bastard, but that it would have insulted his wife. (Seriously.. he should have thought of that before he had sex with the maid, huh?) In steps the Arl who raises Alistair. The Arl didn't seem to ever speak to Al much. It seems that no one did. And when the Arl marries his annoying little wife, she gets all prudish and demands that Al be sent away. He's stuck in a chantry, where he doesn't belong, until he is rescued by Duncan. All he has ever wanted in his whole life is to belong.. to have a family.. to be worthy. He acts silly and says silly things so that no one will be disappointed in him.. so that they will over look him. He does this on purpose and has done it his whole life. Two years or ten years or even twenty years isn't going to change that. Love or friendship or what have you isn't going to instantly make the man stop using the defense mechanism he has used since he was old enough to understand that he wasn't wanted.



I think the -best- part of the way he is written is how he has these moments of brillance that shine through. That even though he has been working his whole life to make people not notice him or, if they do, take him for a fool.. his honor and his smarts and his compassion shows through -anyway-.



I say.. well done, David!

[Lotion Soronarr]

Really? I didn't get that vibe from him at all.



And FYI - prefering to follow and being a YesMan are two different things.

[PinkShira]

I tell the man to have sex with Morrigan and he basically goes - yes dear and follows me to her. How is that not a yes man? And before anyone says anything, yes I know there is more conversation, but it basically comes down to me telling him to do it and him doing it because I told him to.

[Gimmemocha]

Ploobs wrote...

I think the -best- part of the way he is written is how he has these moments of brillance that shine through. That even though he has been working his whole life to make people not notice him or, if they do, take him for a fool.. his honor and his smarts and his compassion shows through -anyway-.

I say.. well done, David!

This, a thousand times over.  Despite having an upbringing where he knew full good and well that a) he wasn't wanted by the people he tried so hard to love and the only people who did want him only wanted him 'cause he was a royal bastard, Alistair still manages to have compassion, honor, and a certain nobility of spirit.  He knows his duty is to protect the people of Ferelden, and he wants to do that.  He's afraid he'll be utter rubbish as a king, he'll ruin everything, and so he doesn't want the throne but yes, he'll take it if it's required.  He'll step up and do his duty, even if it's the one thing that terrifies him most.

So color me  over Alistair.

[heretica]

PinkShira wrote...

I tell the man to have sex with Morrigan and he basically goes - yes dear and follows me to her. How is that not a yes man? And before anyone says anything, yes I know there is more conversation, but it basically comes down to me telling him to do it and him doing it because I told him to.

I disagree here with the Morrigan stuff.

I had to use my HIGH persuasion skills to convince him to sleep with a woman he *hates* (i'm not sure of this, because at the begining, in Lothering, i thought it was a hate-love relationship). If i recall correctly, it was something like "Trust me in this".

[Some Stolen Throne SPOILERS]

Before i read the book I was like "Well, ofc he doesn't like Loghain, he was the responsible for the death of Duncan, that's normal" but now i'm not sure about what to think. If King Maric was alive and in the throne it was 100% thanks to Loghain (he saves Maric's ass several times, even if he refuses at first) so even if Duncan died thanks to Loghain i don't understand the whole /ragequit when you get the option to recruit Loghain. 

Loghain has a very rich background and the more i read about him the more i like him and understand a lot of events in the game better.

But then again Alistair didn't have a close relationship with his father.. did he? I think i am rambling here sorry

[Yorleen]

Original182 wrote...

He wants people to like him because he is Alistair, not because he is the king and if you don't he'll sic his guards on you. He just wants to be Alistair.

This is probably why I like him so much... When he confessed to my character he was actually King Maric's son, she was surprised but in the end it didn't change much to her since he wasn't interested in getting king and anyway, above all, whatever his origins, he's the one she loves... He doesn't try to make himself interesting, neither is he hyper proud of himself being the King's son, quite the contrary. He's quite humble, even a bit too much being insecure. I like the 'puppy' expression.

Actually, I always felt much wit behind his jokes (I always felt he was someone really smart even if he doesn't really want to let it shine), even if he often has a tendency to use them to hide his awkward feelings about relationships. This is quite cute actually, at least in my character"s point of view.

[SeanMurphy2]

I think he is uncomfortable with his royal lineage. He is not comfortable in the Landsmeet, the politics and the responsibilities of being King. The Grey Wardens is what he knows.



I suppose he would be feeling a lot of stress and nervousness before the Landsmeet. It is different from anticipating a battle.



I think if he leaves the party at the Landsmeet. It is a decision he will regret. There are moments in the game where he becomes emotional or angry but gets over it. Or eventually sees the bigger picture.