54 réponses à ce sujet

[Whailor]

Alistair is OK. You can also "harden" him to make his views on things more mature, but in either case, he's OK.

[menasure]

i agree with pinkshira but not for the reasons she states: he is indeed a yes man, however he only is because the character mechanism works with a mirror principle: treat him like dirt and he'll react back in the same way ... but if you suddenly need something from him like if you want him to sleep with morrigan either you'll need a good approval with him or if you have a very bad approval then your only chance to come through is by a coercion skill and honesty options because he'll make it hard for you then to do what you want him to do. any character in this game is moldable to some extent by the way you treat them.

Modifié par menasure, 10 décembre 2009 - 01:42 .

[Antikristine]

PinkShira - I don't mean to offend you, I'm simply stating what my view of fictional characterization is. In my view, seeing Alistair as a yesman would not be entirely correct. Indeed he can be one, if you don't harden him, but if you do, he definitely stands up for himself and becomes much more confident.

Also - he does protest loudly when you ask him to go through with the ritual. He also protests loudly if you kill Isolde or Connor. And he completely breaks with you if you want to let Loghain become a Great Warden. That being said, he can also dump you if you're not human noble.

I think he is a well written character, with interesting possibilities for development.

[edit: typo]

Modifié par Antikristine, 10 décembre 2009 - 01:41 .

[OneBadAssMother]

Wow, someone is actually unhappy with Alistair. At the same time there's a whole female Alistair-Fan club.

[heretica]

OneBadAssMother wrote...

Wow, someone is actually unhappy with Alistair. At the same time there's a whole female Alistair-Fan club.

I'm a proud member lol :wub:

[Yorleen]

SeanMurphy2 wrote...
I think if he leaves the party at the Landsmeet. It is a decision he will regret. There are moments in the game where he becomes emotional or angry but gets over it. Or eventually sees the bigger picture.

I totally second you on this. As for the whole Loghain business, I still believe there could have been an alternate possibility with a non-hardened Alistair deeply in love with a female PC, which isn't forced to be King (yet to do something he really doesn't want)... This is an idea I got a little while ago. I hope David won't see it as an offence as I really enjoy and respect his work (take it from someone who plans to play DA:0 several times to experience it with various origin characters so it shows how I like the game).

I have in mind a situation where Alistair basically go mad when the PC and Riordan speaks of the possibility of making Loghain a Grey Warden and that he should leave the Landsmeet room at some point, just like it currently happens, with disaprovement points. I would also allow more dialog options for the PC in the dialog before he leaves...

Anyway, so first Alistair would get mad and eventually leaves the Landsmeet but he would reappear not long before the fight against the archdemon because I truely don't believe he would totally forsake his duty of Grey Warden and his honor... (or maybe if he's been hardened). Also he's spent more than a year with the PC, so she must have become family to him if he's really in love, the only family he still has got...

In real life I think this would be credible: you get totally mad at your lover (or a very good friend) for a reason so you go away a moment (more or less long depending on the situation)... But then you think of all the good times, the genuine love... I think Alistair would realize that he just can't abandon his love to fight the archdemon + if he didn't fight it it wouldn't be worth of a Grey Warden. I imagine him coming back as the PC and pals finally come face to face with the Archdemon... "Needing a hand?"
Were the circumptances less bad he may have gone for a long while but there's a kind of "emergency" here!

The PC could either be welcoming, either being really bitter but wanting his help anyway or just tell him they are doing fine without him... If she welcomes him back, I imagine he would say something like "I'm really hating to have to fight with this murderer as a "brother of arms" but what kind of Warden would I be if I just walked away from the most crucial fight... and what kind of man would I be if I let the one I love fight on her own?"
Well, anyway, whatever the PC's answers it should be fast because they're in the heart of a battle, lol! But I would like to see something like that...

Anyway, just my two cents!

[Lotion Soronarr]

SeanMurphy2 wrote...
I think if he leaves the party at the Landsmeet. It is a decision he will regret. There are moments in the game where he becomes emotional or angry but gets over it. Or eventually sees the bigger picture.

I'd argue he's allready seen the bigger picture.

To paraphrase that historian/writer in the Dwarven Noble origin - it is the proudent course of action.

[Wrathra]

I don’t see Alistair as a yes man, at all, and his actions make sense to me, especially for someone with his background, upbringing, etc. etc.

Alistair is terribly insecure, but that changes as his character develops, especially when you harden him (of course, the way gaming works, he will do what you say since you ultimately control them all, but I digress). He protests, loudly, when you do things he does not agree with – releasing Jowan, having Zevran join you, etc. I lost a decent amount of influence for both those decisions. I had to persaude him to sleep with Morrigan, he didn’t just happily wander off down to her room to do it, and he was protesting right up to the very end.

I actually like the hardened Alistair better, since he steps up and speaks his mind more, and is more confident.

As for the Loghain thing, I’m absolutely with him here, as much as I like Loghain as a character. Alistair sees it as a betrayal to spare him and have him join the Wardens, which to Alistair is an honor. If he is in love with the PC (or you have high influence, whatever), this is an especially brutal betrayal to him, for reasons that are obvious. And if you are a human noble who killed Howe, this also makes you a hypocrite (in my opinion, anyway, and we all know what opinions are like ). And all of that aside, let’s be honest, I know I’ve done some ridiculously stupid things when angry (like walking out of a job) that I regretted later, that were 1) out of character for me (because I am a responsible woman) and 2) in my mind at the time, absolutely justified.

I could be reading too much into events, however, but this is how I saw them. Sorry if my comments are redundant, but I always find these discussions very interesting.

EDIT: damned formatting. sigh.

Modifié par Wrathra, 10 décembre 2009 - 03:19 .

[Vaeliorin]

Yorleen wrote...
I always felt he was someone really smart even if he doesn't really want to let it shine.

He actually even mentions this at one point (I believe it was in a banter with Morrigan.)  He talks about all the studying he did as a Templar trainee and that "They don't make stupid Templars."

So, really, he is pretty smart and educated, he'd just rather hide behind the facade of silliness to protect himself from getting hurt.

[OneBadAssMother]

Studying history doesn't make one smart lol xD

[Imryll]

PinkShira wrote...

David Gaider has spoken on these forums that he knows his character best and that he sees nothing wrong with what his character says and does at the Landsmeet.

David's knowledge of his character is authoritative, but his value judgments are just that ... his value judgments.  As author he gets to determine the facts of the situation--and his opinions about those facts are interesting--but his seeing nothing wrong doesn't make that so. 

[tigrina]

Imryll wrote...

PinkShira wrote...

David Gaider has spoken on these forums that he knows his character best and that he sees nothing wrong with what his character says and does at the Landsmeet.

David's knowledge of his character is authoritative, but his value judgments are just that ... his value judgments.  As author he gets to determine the facts of the situation--and his opinions about those facts are interesting--but his seeing nothing wrong doesn't make that so.

Of course it does, he made the character after all. Alistair is his character, and we being able to play with him, so to speak, it doesn't make him ours. It would have been nice to be able to have some dialogue about the matter before the Landsmeet though, I guess.

I can see how people did not see his rage over trying to recruit Loghain at the Landsmeet from afar though, since he never ever is enraged when you choose only the good options throughout the game. But like stated before, for him, it is pure betrayal. Especially since he is a son of Maric, I can see how this would overshadow everything else at that specific time (and not only because of Alistair being Maric's, but it does show hm?). I just wish I could talk to him afterwards though, even when it would be a pure word-fight. Only for being able to tell him why I made my choices like I did. I didn't do this ending yet so I'm not sure what is possible already and what isn't. Him being drunk in some bar in the epilogue does make me cringe.

My current character doesn't see the Wardens as an honor but more of a necessary evil to ensure the future of Ferelden. I mean, let's face it, when you've seen what humanoids can become when tainted, it is a rather crude method for stopping a Blight. Since it is the only method which seems guaranteed to work, I can live with it though. *

* just my current characters opinion on the matter

Modifié par tigrina, 10 décembre 2009 - 03:53 .

[kaimanaMM]

I think Alistair is pretty consistent all the way through. He's both written and voice acted brilliantly.



The Landsmeet irks me just a touch (because I feel it was done a little heavyhanded), but I don't see his actions / reactions as out of character. Revenge, just like love is a very strong and selfish feeling. In my first playthrough as a human noble all I wanted was Howe's head on a pike, I swore when we met again (because there would be no if) I would give him the death he so richly deserved. If my character felt this way about the man who orchestrated the death of her real family, I don't think it's a far stretch at all that Alistair feels the same way when he sees Loghain face to face : the man who's actions killed the only man who ever saw Alistair as something more than just an inconvience or a some kind of potential political pawn or even a mistake, period. Add that in with all of Loghain's other actions, can you blame Alistair for only seeing red?



Yes, he loves you (if you romanced him) but he is not totally without a spine, he is not going to do what you tell him to do just because you say so. For him to accept your asking him to do Morrigan's ritual it takes some pretty high approval and coercion (if not maxed). But, like David Gaider has said, he can wrap his head around it because in the end, Morrigan hasn't specifically done anything to harm you (or him) and also, it's saving your life - or even a life. He won't blindly follow you, he WILL speak up if you do something he disagrees with but he does see the bigger picture. He knows that the Grey Wardens aren't shiney kinght-like heroes, they get the job done regardless and sometimes that means we get blood on our hands.



Alistair is a man who feels that no one ever really wanted him until Duncan and then you, came along. Yes, he's insecure, but can you honestly expect him to be otherwise after what he tells you of his past? Arl Eamon dumps him in the Chantry because Isolde tells him to, despite that Eamon doesn't care if people think Alistair is his child or not. Even living with Eamon he had to sleep with the servants out in the hay and the cold he says, no silk sheets. In the Chantry the poor kids give him the cold shoulder and the nobles look down on him because he's just another bastard, Eamon's or otherwise. Then it's decided FOR HIM that he's going to be a Templar. He tells you the Templars are given lyrium, whether they actually need it or not and eventually become addicted to it. He tells you he did go through one Harrowing and it was pretty brutal. At that point, like he says, he was hopelessly resigned to his fate - a life that he never had a say in since the beginning!



What makes Alistair shine is his ability to look beyond everything that's happened and what's happening now and find the humor and beauty. The weight of it all is pretty heavy being a Grey Warden, but "it doesn't have to be deadly serious all the time." His experiences could have made him a cold, cynical d-bag, but instead he's a great big boy : funny, honorable, charming, brave - and he ain't half bad to look at all the time.

[Imryll]

tigrina wrote...

Imryll wrote...

PinkShira wrote...

David Gaider has spoken on these forums that he knows his character best and that he sees nothing wrong with what his character says and does at the Landsmeet.

David's knowledge of his character is authoritative, but his value judgments are just that ... his value judgments.  As author he gets to determine the facts of the situation--and his opinions about those facts are interesting--but his seeing nothing wrong doesn't make that so.

Of course it does, he made the character after all. Alistair is his character, and we being able to play with him, so to speak, it doesn't make him ours. It would have been nice to be able to have some dialogue about the matter before the Landsmeet though, I guess.

Perhaps, you misunderstood me. Or perhaps we really disagree.  As I see it, an author gets to determine what happened and what a character's motivations were.  Whether there was anything "wrong" with what the character did is, however, a moral judgment that ultimately each player will make for themselves. David can say that something would not have been generally considered wrong by the people of Ferelden because that's a matter of cultural context. However, when it comes to an absolute judgment, rather than a contextual one, his is just another opinion. That has nothing to do with making the character anyone else's.  

[Enoch VG]

I didn't think his reaction at the Landsmeet was set up particularly well. Sure, we know that Al loved and honored Duncan, and that he wanted to defeat Loghain, expose his treachery, and kill him. I would expect some disagreement with the decision to let him live (although killing someone who is begging for mercy after losing a supposedly honorable duel in front of a bunch of powerful and supposedly honorable nobles is a ... questionable decision at best).

But I don't see how anything in Al's character as expressed to the player up to that point supports his decision to simply walk away from the party's efforst to defeat the Blight, the wishes of the two other influential people in his life (the PC and Arl Eamon), and from his duties and oaths as a Warden. All over not executing a rival who you've already defeated and humbled. We knew he was immature and insecure to a certain degree, but we had no reason to suspect that he was quite that petulant, selfish, and childish. That migh well be how Gaider understands the character, but that understanding wasn't communicated to the player particularly well.

[SeanMurphy2]

I think when he walks away during the Landsmeet. It is also due to the pressure of being an heir to the throne and self conscious about being in the public spotlight. He is no longer an anonymous Grey Warden. The Loghain decision and his tantrum was a public humiliation. He may feel like disappearing.



Maybe under different circumstances he would have calmed down and reconciled a few days later. But you have moved away to Redcliffe



I think Alistair would have still fought in the final battle..Maybe he is happier fighting as an anonymous common soldier. And shedding the identity of being Maric's son.

[XOGHunter246]

I love reading thing about how this guy has annoyed people so funny

[ChemicalGreen]

Executing Loghain is one thing, but I think the true betrayal for Alistair is the decision to make Loghain go through joining and become a Grey Warden. As others have pointed out, it was in Grey Wardens that Alistair for the first time found unconditional acceptance and friendship. Duncan was the world to him. And despite what he may say he knows about the pragmatic (read: not so honorable) methods the Wardens sometimes use, deep down he still thinks that the Grey Wardens are good people, and it is an honor to join them. You can see this in Ostegar if you talk to him about Daveth, he doesn't understand why Duncan wanted to recruit a pickpocket and a thief. Because he loves being a Grey Warden, the organization and the people he has met in it (you could argue that Alistair so far has not been directly been exposed to the dirty deeds that come with the Grey Wardening) he is completely blind to the fact that the Grey Wardens, like Riordan, and dare I say Duncan, are ultimate pragmatists. Anything is a tool, and any tool can be used to kill the Archdemon.



So... when facing with accepting the fact that his "adoptive family" is less than perfect, and compeletely willing to accept traitorous murderers into the ranks in the name of convinience, it gets a bit too much for him.



Mind you, on my last playthrough he confessed to me at the Coronation that he was foolish in his decision during the Landsmeet. (I spared Loghain and had him take the killing blow).

[Lotion Soronarr]

Enoch VG wrote...

I didn't think his reaction at the Landsmeet was set up particularly well. Sure, we know that Al loved and honored Duncan, and that he wanted to defeat Loghain, expose his treachery, and kill him. I would expect some disagreement with the decision to let him live (although killing someone who is begging for mercy after losing a supposedly honorable duel in front of a bunch of powerful and supposedly honorable nobles is a ... questionable decision at best).

No, his decision is perfectly sound. It would have been even if Loghain never did kill Ducan and the GW's. Think about it.
Loghain is a unstable man who betrayed his king and his friends son (and son in law) and thousands of loyal Fereldens to a horrible faith. He commited countless crimes and almsot ruined the country.

Now that same man is actively challening you to the last, even after you exposed him. Even after he loses support from most of the bannorn, he still refusesto give up. And if he won the duel, do you think you'd be left alive?

Last, but by no means least, Loghain is still an influental men, with plenty of poeple who would still support him. As long as he is alive, he's a danger. His supporters might still garner hope to rally around him, he might still stab you in the back in the last minute. He's a giant political liability...a loose end that can cause problems.
His oath of loyalty to your cause means nothing - after all, he swore an oath to the king he murdered, didn't he?
His guilt is proven, the punishment for treason is death (and that's not even counting all of his OTHER crimes).

And not only do you want to spare that man, but you want to grant him the honor of becoming a Grey Warden?
As far as the world is concerned, that is a great honor.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 10 décembre 2009 - 07:16 .

[Sabyn]

Thanks everyone for the posts on this, it was fun reading through everyones opinions on Alistair. I still haven't even completed the landsmeet portion of the game because all of the possible outcomes leave me with pit in my stomach. I wish I didn't use the word inconsistent in my origional post and I definately didn't intend any disrespect to the writer of this character. Alistair is totally consistent throughout my playthrough. In fact I have known people like him in real life which is why I am frustrated.
 
What bothers me is that this sweet, just, emotional, smelly, pathetic little puppy of a person is capable of executing a man who has laid down his weapon in defeat. Justice would demand Logain's death, I don't question that. What I do question is that the development of Alistairs character throughout the game, as I have played it, does not suggest that he would be capable of being the instrument for such an act of calous, brutal, rage. I can agree with a death-sentence in the name of justice, as an adult, but would I consider letting a child make the choice to pull the switch at his parent's murderer's execution? People that I have known that are very similiar to this character, kind of whiney, sensitive, or sarcastic generally have many more reservations about dealing with a conflict with thier own hands than crying about it (which he does throughout my entire playthrough so far). I'm bother'd by a lack of dialogue options for my character to talk him down from making such a choice for himself. Use his own words against his brashness, " I feel dirty, we aren't actually considering this are we?" (during the elvan slavery by tevinter mages) or advise temperance or compromise rather than murder/execution.

I haven't felt this strongly about a character since I read "The Brother's Karamazov" 6 year's ago.
My character is even named Alyosha, when it should be named Alistair, the irony is sweet. Thanks again bioware for creating such great character's.

Modifié par Sabyn, 11 décembre 2009 - 08:53 .

[Vicious]

Loghain serves the Grey Wardens well. He takes up Duncan's place as recruiter in Ferelden! THAT is justice right there. Not killing him when he's on his knees and resigned to your judgement. You can't redeem yourself in death, only in life.



But Alistair doesn't understand a lot. He doesn't like Daveth because he's not morally perfect. He freaks out about Blood Magic even though Grey Wardens are completely OK with using it.... in general he's a very fragile person.

[magor1988x]

First, I enjoyed Alistair. He was humorous, quirky, and is one of the very limited choices for tank sowhat are you going to do?

Yes, he has an innate sense of compassion and kindness tied to a very strong sense of justice. And yes, he's also ridiculously insecure and a tad.... thick, dim witted, slow in the head, etc etc.

Which is funny, cuz he likes to shoot off his mouth, which usually goes with quick thinking... Apparently not in his case.

I don't find any of the character traits listed by the OP as incompatible. Some people think virginity is
a good thing? So scratch virgin. Alienated, sure I guess. He doesn't seem like the kind of guy that pushes people away. Prepubescent definitely give you that, but does that means young guys can't have a sense of compassion, justice, or vengeance?

Incompetent? At what? He didn't want to be a Templar but didn't have a choice. Despite those facts he excelled at
Templar training, he just failed at some of their philosophical points.

Smelly.... Yes, medieval soldiers had the most advanced hygiene in the world, the likes of which will never be seen by man again. Stereotyping... But outdoorsman fighter types and cleanliness? If you say so.

It's a bit more then eye for an eye justice. Loghain Mac Tir is a walking sack of crap. Even if he
saves Fereldan by killing the Arch Demon in your play through that puts him one step up from a sack of crap. He deserves a slow painful death (Lucky bastard got a merciful one) and then some. Unfortunately, there was no real fair court system to try and convict him in on short notice, but they'd have come to the same conclusion.

******

And I take it back just read what the OP said like 2 posts up.

Modifié par magor1988x, 11 décembre 2009 - 09:26 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sabyn wrote...
What bothers me is that this sweet, just, emotional, smelly, pathetic little puppy of a person is capable of executing a man who has laid down his weapon in defeat. Justice would demand Logain's death, I don't question that. What I do question is that the development of Alistairs character throughout the game, as I have played it, does not suggest that he would be capable of being the instrument for such an act of calous, brutal, rage.

You'd be surprised. We all have it in ourselves to brutally kill. Part of our nature. It just needs something strong enough to push it out. That said, Alistair is hardly an innocent kid. He killed before you met him and he killed even more after you did.

[Walina]

Sabyn wrote...

This post is completely out of my character, my first on any game forum ever. That being said I am an avid gamer, especially of bioware games, going back to BDG. To preface this post as well, this is my 1st playthrough of DA: origions and my perception of Alistair's character could be effected by the paths I have chosen earlier in these past few weeks, but from the story that I have been participating in for that time, his character either seems inconsistent (underdeveloped for a bioware game) or it is a brilliant philosophical contrast of character traits.

From the perspective I have played, he presents both as a prepubesant, alienated, bastard, virgin, and conversely, a completely ideological representation of justice, virtue, and vengance. I can't understand how these traits can be reconciled within the storyline I have experienced, especially after playing a game like Planescape Torment where the options evoked profound thought about both the characters and philosophy. Why would a 20 something, incompetant, smelly (accoriding to his conversations with Wynn about his socks), insecure and somewhat dimwitted virgin turn down social acceptance, a position of undeserved leadership, wealth, security and getting laid? In my experience thats a pretty rare combination in itself. Not to mention the other aspect's of his character, those of virtue, justice and vengance (based on his reactions during the landsmeet). He refuses everything that would remedy the inadaquacies of his most often expressed character traits in the storyline in order to execute Logain and leave the country fractured and impotent in the name of ideological "eye for an eye" justice?

The duplicity of alistair's character throughout this game leads me to think that either he is an underdeveloped, poorly written character, or I must come to the conclusion that the developer's of this game are making an explicit statement about the archetypical construct of the truely blind, just, virtuous, and vengeful political ideal.

Reguardless of intent (maybe im presupposing to much), alistair will be my **** character for every subsuquent playthrough of this game, and thank you bioware for creating such a provocative piece of literature. 

For me the character who follow ypu during the play and the one who stay at the camp are different, that's why there are a lot of contradictions and it's not just about Alistair but it's the same for other characters.

So yes, for me they're under developped but Bioware will tell you : it's not a dating sim so bear with it.

Modifié par Walina, 11 décembre 2009 - 11:00 .

[Yorleen]

True: a Sim can't be that romantic, with in-depth conversations.

Joke apart, I don't really feel Alistair looks different in camp that in game but I do feel there are missing bits of dialogs in some situations which can make things awkward. But someone said there will be 2 years worth of DLC so let's keep our fingers crossed for some additional content concerning the NPCs...