77 réponses à ce sujet

[axdorffe]

**just 13 times the lifespan.... not 10 times 13 lol that would be 3900 years? not good!

[MrIsidor]

Koyasha wrote...
Clearly the correct decision is to go, "Here, Alistair, drink up." 

Playing my first character, that was my first thought. But alas, I was not given that option. So I just left it.

My second character, a (over)confident mage didn't think twice before gulping it down.

[Jestert]

The past is irrelavent, all decisions should be made based solely on reasoned expectation of the future.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Did anyone allow him to continue his research and are you able to get back in the keep if you do? I didn't like the idea of not being able to get back in the keep after paying for it's use. Party storage chest should be the whole bloody keep in my opinion, plus all of the chests within the keep. 

I felt this was a ripoff.  Your forced to download this for storage and then you can't use the whole keep. 
Don't take Wynne or Lelianna with you if you don't want their approval rating to drop.

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 12 décembre 2009 - 08:44 .

[ybrik68]

I let him live first time through the game when I was a mage, I could not go an revisit him later for anything else. Second time I played a rogue and killed him and took his loot, and went and slayed the demon also. I always go for whatever makes my char more powerful and richer, I throw morality out the window, so I drank the potion, made a deal with the desire demon for Conner's soul all for any upgrade in power or stats.

Modifié par ybrik68, 12 décembre 2009 - 08:59 .

[AtreiyaN7]

Hmm, was his work evil? Yeees, but at least you can use it for good. It's also actually possible with enough coercion/cunning to get Avernus to admit that his, ahem, approach to research was basically wrong - evil, corrupt, etc. etc. After closing the tear in the Veil, you can even get him to agree to conduct future research in an ethically and morally responsible manner (no more torture, etc.). I had mixed feelings about it, but I used the potion despite what he'd done (maybe it was that pragmatic Warden thing kicking in and/or natural curiosity ). I do draw the line at demon summoning being a no-no at least. *cough*

[axdorffe]

so the potion is steroids?

[T-Kay]

Your party members don't care about you becoming some sort of blood mage because you don't tell them about it. Even so, you can play the biggest bad-ass in RPG history and still romance Leliana and Alistair if you give them enough gifts. Just like in the real world.

[taurii]

If you are roleplaying then it depends on how that particular character you are roleplaying cares about the issue. If you are powergaming then you grab any advantage you can get. I roleplay. That is how I have fun. Not by "winning" the game. There is nothing wrong with either way of enjoying the game. I don't drink the potion because if that was me.. (Or any other sane person) and I came across the thing with the same information available as to what it is.. I wouldn't drink it! For all you know it is a trap set by avernus and it is actually pure rat poison.

[SiIencE]

I drank that stuff and got 2 weird spells i never used (not bothered checking) but i wonder where to get the next 2 'slots/spells' really? And i've drank it every time i came across it but i never got the 'last 2' spells. And as is shown in the 'flashbacks' "Everything to win - even bloodmagic"

[DeathScepter]

Well there is a reason that the Grey Wardens are called the Grey Wardens. For they are not white, black, pink or rainbow Wardens.

An honest Grey warden would have more of a grey morality.

[Merc Mama]

I drank it, wasn't sure what would happen but as long as it didn't hurt my team, I was fine with it.. Wanted Alistair to drink it too, but sadly there was no option and I was annoyed why no one treated Alistair like the Grey Warden he is, instead of excluding him from the major choices I had to make.

[thats1evildude]

It's evil, but no more so than thread necromancy.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

While I acknowledge the argument that making it was evil, I really don't see why its evil to put it to use after the evil needed to create it has been done. (Though even I look askance at necromancers.)

[Bhryaen]

Very good thread, necroed or no. I tend to just do this and forget about it, but the DLC does involve a lot of reckonings.

The primary difference between the research gained from IRL concentration camp victims and the research gained from Avernus' victims (besides that Avernus is pure fiction) is that the former really did provide useful information for medicine which can and has been helpful in saving any number of people, whereas the latter is only so useful to any single given Warden that chugs the jar.

The thing to note about the former is that it was likely that the information could've been obtained without torturing and killing people, but that those employing such methods were historical dustbin types for whom no atrocity was too great. They weren't conducting the experiments to save humanity, nor would they have applied it for such an end. It's just that it ultimately did serve that end despite them.

As to Avernus' research it probably did require killing his five likely-not-so-willing "subjects" in order to enable my Warden rogue to move a little faster during stealth or various of my Wardens to bleed themselves to death for the sake of extra damage to foes, and clearly he thought it imperative to finish the research in order to provide his fellow Wardens with such underwhelming feats as that, but whether the potion's extra talents actually make a significant (or even noticeable) difference in the lives of the Warden- or anyone- such as in defeating the archdemon... or anything much at all... remains dubious. All my characters (except my kingly DN who refused to be sullied and smashed it across the room) have drunk it, and all were unimpressed, and none have ever used the talents a single time. I've only once bothered transferring the activated or sustained talents to the task bar (my first playthrough), and ultimately it was displaced due to real estate needs and its general uselessness.

If someone doesn't want the fruits of Avernus' brilliant and profound work to go to waste, just leave it. Some other Warden might come along to be magically underwhelmed instead.

Avernus did what he did under the rubric of benefiting humanity, and produced... meh. The sanguinary historical rejects of the 1930-40s did what they did under the rubric of advancing their nation, but ended up benefiting humanity generally despite the national chauvinism driving their efforts.

EDIT:
Mostly I don't see why my characters even drink it. They have no idea what's going to happen, whether they'll explode or whatever. After all we learn plenty in advance that Avernus has a knack for getting his experiments not quite right...

Modifié par Bhryaen, 02 juillet 2013 - 04:30 .

[Jedimaster88]

DeadlyHaven wrote...

This is actually a really good question. I tend to think of it as "evil", but that's not necessarily the case. I mean, yes many Wardens were killed in order to make this concoction, but do the ends justify the means? I mean, *POTENTIAL DAII SPOILER* in DAII there is a quest (if you let Avernus live, at least) that alludes to the First Warden having supplied Avernus with more Wardens to experiment on. It was kinda creepy, actually.

I dont remember him mentioning anything like that in his letter during my playthroughs. Maybe its because I tell him to continue his experiments but ethically.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

DeadlyHaven wrote...

This is actually a really good question. I tend to think of it as "evil", but that's not necessarily the case. I mean, yes many Wardens were killed in order to make this concoction, but do the ends justify the means? I mean, *POTENTIAL DAII SPOILER* in DAII there is a quest (if you let Avernus live, at least) that alludes to the First Warden having supplied Avernus with more Wardens to experiment on. It was kinda creepy, actually.

Are you referring to creating the concoction, or drinking it? I think you might be missing that those aren't necessarily the same question. Avernus did arguably evil things to create the concoction, and those probably evil things cannot be undone. The question is whether to use the item created by his maybe-evil, and it is important to note that refusing to gain this power because it was created by evil (if you decide that it was evil) does not benefit those who were injured by his evil.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 07 juillet 2013 - 07:24 .

[Corker]

Bhryaen wrote...

As to Avernus' research it probably did require killing his five likely-not-so-willing "subjects" in order to enable my Warden rogue to move a little faster during stealth or various of my Wardens to bleed themselves to death for the sake of extra damage to foes, and clearly he thought it imperative to finish the research in order to provide his fellow Wardens with such underwhelming feats as that, but whether the potion's extra talents actually make a significant (or even noticeable) difference in the lives of the Warden- or anyone- such as in defeating the archdemon... or anything much at all... remains dubious.

Having played a lot of rogues and sometimes using a lot of stealth, I think the Dark Passage ability is awesome. It's passive, IIRC, and it lets you move at a full jog while stealthed.  During a solo PT, when I spent most of it in stealth, it made the difference between tooth-grindingly slow progress and normal exploration.  Not critical but makes things less awful.

Mostly I don't see why my characters even drink it. They have no idea what's going to happen, whether they'll explode or whatever. After all we learn plenty in advance that Avernus has a knack for getting his experiments not quite right...

It's been a while, but I had a Warden who first only read the note by the bottles, which makes reference to controlling or even cleansing the taint, I think. She was a Dalish and having the purity of her blood destroyed *really* bothered her, so she chugged.  Then she found out it didn't so much remove the taint as concentrate it and weaponize it... and then she learned via the nearby book what had been done to create it.  Was not a red-letter day for her.

[kalasaurus]

I wouldn't say it's evil- more silly than anything to drink a random concoction you find (at least before speaking to Avernus). My blood mage and more ruthless characters go ahead, but otherwise my Wardens leave the strange drink alone.

[wiccame]

Avernus said, they were dead any way..being trapped there. He gave their death meaning and I don't recall it being said any where that it was done against their will. They may have agreed to it. They were wardens after all and if it meant making future wardens more powerful then I think they would have agreed.
Regardless all my wardens drink it, no matter the way it was done, it was done and not benefiting from it and knocking it off the table would have made it more meaningless. Anything to end the blight, right?

[Bhryaen]

Avernus was "trapped there" without being "dead anyway." I've wondered myself whether his subjects volunteered since, as you suggest, it doesn't say and is supposed to be "for a good cause-" i.e., Warden power enhancement. Or we assume Avernus rationalized it at least that well. But, well, it doesn't say, and it's hard to imagine people volunteering to be shoved onto a wall full of spikes and electrocuted with no clear outcome of the rather macabre and sadistic "experiments," particularly given that they'd gotten trapped there due to Avernus' other failed experiment.

Warden1: "So... you want to stick me in that cage and lower me into the pit... just to see what happens when you boil my blood."
Avernus: "Would ya? Please?"
Warden1: "But you've no idea what good it'll do."
Avernus: "It's to see how Warden blood can be enhanced."
Warden1: "By frying it within me?"
Avernus: "Bingo! Just trust me..."
Warden1: "Riiiight..."
Avernus: "Well... maybe it might make it possible to make a potion at some point. For the Wardens!"
Warden1: "Potion of what? Demon immunity? Archdemon immunity? Will it get us out of here? What good will it do... if you manage to get anything out of it at all?"
Avernus: "Um... faster stealth for rogue Wardens maybe? About the best it gets. Or different ways of bleeding on your enemies."
Warden1: "That's it? That's what you want to subject us to outright torture and agonizing death for?"
Avernus: "If only there were more of you..."
Warden1: "Sounds great! Lower me into the pit right now!"
Warden2: "No, me first!"

I mean, this wasn't exactly the cure for the taint or a way of immunizing everyone (Warden or no) against the taint or the universal solution to mixed-up Rubix Cubes. It doesn't grant +10 vs darkspawn or raise all attributes by +5. It grants some impractical blood magic spells to mages and non-mages and- which makes loads of sense- normalizes movement rate during rogue stealth. Now, I love rogues myself, so they always end up chugging regardless, but really? That's what all the hoopla and controversy of the DLC was about? All Avernus' centuries of study and the sacrifice of his fellows, and the culmination is that? Just saying I can see Wardens refusing to participate and not drinking the stuff.

If the results of consumption were known in advance it makes sense that people would drink it. It isn't a matter of making the sacrifices "matter." They happened already anyway, and the results are what they are. No one commissioned the project, and we're not talking game-making advancements. Archy is in no way threatened. The sacrifices were in vain one way or another. The crux of the situation for me is of an unknown potion sitting on a table with a "DRINK ME" label and unspecified consequences. There's a book to hint at what was going on, but there's nothing guaranteed. I mean, has Avernus ever drank it himself? Was his last victi- I mean subject the one who drank the first bottle? Are we just the unwitting guinea pigs? Reminds me of ol' DnD days...

DM: "You come to a 20X40 room with a table and three potions on it- an orange one, a large blue one, and a small, dark red one. What do you do?"
Player: "Are there any labels on them or anything?"
DM: "The red one has a small label near the bottom that reads, 'Enhancement.'"
Player: "Does it smell OK?"
DM: "No smell at all."
Player: "Hm, then I make my henchman drink it."
DM: "Your henchman died when you had him walk into that corridor trap earlier, remember?"
Player: *sighs* "Fine. Then I drink it."
DM: "Make a Save Vs Breath Weapons."
Player: *rolls*
DM: "Missed. You start bleeding through your every orafice and take 4d8 internal hemorrhaging damage."
Player: "What??"
DM: "Hey, I didn't say you had to drink it... Besides, you knew the dungeon belonged to a ruthless blood mage with a penchant for overestimating his mage abilities..."
Player: "But... anything to end the blight, right?"
DM: "Right... So roll a new character..."

[Corker]

Bhryaen wrote...

Warden1: "So... you want to stick me in that cage and lower me into the pit... just to see what happens when you boil my blood."
Avernus: "Would ya? Please?"
Warden1: "But you've no idea what good it'll do."
Avernus: "It's to see how Warden blood can be enhanced."
Warden1: "By frying it within me?"
Avernus: "Bingo! Just trust me..."

omfg that is my life this week.  Test plans, how do they work?

[DeathScepter]

a part of me thinks Avernus's "tests" are a better way to go than going on the Calling and potentially being a Ghoul or die a horrible fashion.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Easy to say when you're not a test subject. Some people would rather go down fighting than being used as a guinea pig.