257 réponses à ce sujet

[wright1978]

Yep Kid was a stupid addition in order to give people with no imagination a scripted your supposed to be sad here moment. Part of a whole raft of autodialogued cringeworthy moments in ME3.

[Joolazoo]

The problem wasn't the fact that it was a kid...it was that it was so poorly executed. Anyone who is acting like they have real life experience in combat and can actually compare the mental effect of knowing a kid died without seeing it and seeing your friends/allies die up close can eat some balls, seriously. The execution is horrible and the only thing the kid represents is the cliched child who attempts to say something deep but ends up sounding like an idiot. What kind of kid says "you can't save me" to a big soldier with a gun when a ****ing giant metal bug the size of a town is attacking the planet.

Also...comparing a kid we've seen for 5 ****ing seconds to any other character we actually know and care about dying is laughable. This is a video game...why in the hell would you care about some random kid dying? That has no real effect and gives you no reason to care since you are not invested in them at all as well as their death not actually meaning anything in the real world. You don't cry when Legion dies because Legion's soul is no longer in his body and he is not a person, you cry because he is no longer in the game and his characters's story is over. The kid's story is him telling you to go fudge yourself when you offer help and then dying. R.I.P random ****** kid who was too afraid to accept help from the most talented soldier in the galaxy. One less bed wetter in the gene pool.

Modifié par Joolazoo, 24 mai 2012 - 07:58 .

[Kasces]

avenging_teabag wrote...

Der Bibliothekar wrote...

The Point is: The Kid didn't haunt me.
And as the player "is" Shepard, it should be up to them to decide how to cope with it.

Could you decide to agree with Saren in the end of ME1? Could you in ME2 decide that Jack was too much trouble and throw her off the Normandy? Could you decide to flip a bird to the Illusive Man the minute the SR2 left the dock? No, you could not. You have some limited choice in some matters, but it's still the writers' job to decide where the story is going.

A simpler question: since when can you control your dreams to the degree you decide what it's about ?

As I recall, you can say you're OK whenever someone asks how you are when you wake up. Well, as OK as you can be after watching a child die again, this time by fire.

I dont see how this inteferes with roleplaying, even if annoying.

[N7 ironman]

I was playing with one of my friends right after the game came out at midnight (I had played the demo and he hadn't so I was watching him go through the intro) and I remember say "I wish I could send a inceneration blast down that vent and kill him just to get it over with". Having to see my Shepard who I was supposed to have crafted over the previous two games to be what I wanted him to be mourn over this ridiculous, shoe horned little kid pissed me off almost as bad as the ending did.

[Beeno4Life]

XJ347 wrote...

It was forced and felt out of place.

[Brp650]

Dont know if this is relevant or not...........
Ive been a Paramedic for 10 yrs. Seen some pretty nasty things in that time.
But the one call that still haunts me to this day was a MVC where a 2 y/o child was crushed between the back and front seats.
Dont care how "hard" someone is, but there is always the one call that gets to you and stays with you the rest of your life.

[The Night Mammoth]

Forced, unnatural, the emotional manipulation was far too obvious, thus, I reject the idea.

[hawat333]

Should he be haunted by a stripper's death?
Or an unnamed hobo's death?
I think the child works fine, children are representing our future, it always did and it always will.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Saints_ wrote...

The kid wasn't even real.

The kid was real. The marines waited for the kid to board the shuttle before closing the door. He's 10, and perfectly capable of getting on board by himself. Sorry.

What also made the child stand out even more was the fact that this is the single only child model in the entire ME series. That's right. There are no children anywhere, not even in the refugee area on the Citadel. You'd have expected to see some with their parents in ME2 in the spaceport area at least around the souvenier shops or getting food or something. No. No kids. Not in ME1, 2, and this is the only one in 3. That's why this child stands out so much.

And the reuse of the model as the Catalyst is simply artistic laziness. They simply didn't want to make a new character model.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 24 mai 2012 - 09:18 .

[Ozzyfan223]

Cypher_CS wrote...

Have you actually been in a real combat situation? Ever?

Yes, it's the children that haunt you more than most.

And he actually talked to that Kid, right before.
He wanted to help him, but he couldn't (cause the kid ran away). He failed to help a helpless.
Grown ups are not considered helpless. Children are.

You know what?
Scratch that first question.
Are you a father?

No, I have not been in a real combat situation, nor do I think I know as much as those who do. I hope my original post did not imply such.

Yes, a child's death will haunt any man, but what Shepard has seen is beyond what we know. And he has seen many battles, it's highly unlikely that Shepard hasn't seen children die in front of him. Also, Shepard has failed ot help the helpless before, not children to our knowledge, but look at what happens to the colonist/kelly in the collector base. I don't see how adults can't be helpless too...

And no, I'm no father. I have a bird though.....

Modifié par Ozzyfan223, 24 mai 2012 - 09:33 .

[Sal86]

My Shep is a paragon as they come. I'm a soft touch, I always play the good guy ans try to save everyone. I still didn't care about that kid.

I think it would have worked a little better if he wasn't the one and only child in the entire galaxy. As it is, it's just painfully (or perhaps painfully is not the word?) obvious emotional manipulation.

That's not to say that Shepard wouldn't, or shouldn't care. It's just a disconnect between player and avatar that's a little grating in a game that previously provded so much player agency.

[The Night Mammoth]

Sal86 wrote...

My Shep is a paragon as they come. I'm a soft touch, I always play the good guy ans try to save everyone. I still didn't care about that kid.

I think it would have worked a little better if he wasn't the one and only child in the entire galaxy. As it is, it's just painfully (or perhaps painfully is not the word?) obvious emotional manipulation.

That's not to say that Shepard wouldn't, or shouldn't care. It's just a disconnect between player and avatar that's a little grating in a game that previously provded so much player agency.

Better put than I ever could. 

What makes it worse is that a much more emotional moment had only just occured, in form of leaving Anderson, your friend and mentor, on Earth as you fly away to relative safety.

[Ariq]

Ozzyfan223 wrote...

Yes, a child's death will haunt any man, but what Shepard has seen is beyond what we know. And he has seen many battles, it's highly unlikely that Shepard hasn't seen children die in front of him. Also, Shepard has failed ot help the helpless before, not children to our knowledge, but look at what happens to the colonist/kelly in the collector base. I don't see how adults can't be helpless too...

In historical wars, there have been veterans of  a dozen battles who snap in the thirteenth. Or the fifteenth. No one knows which image will push them over the line. The human mind doesn't get to choose "this is my limit". You probably know the old cliche about straws and camels, right? Stress is cumulative. Every version of Shepard has been through enough to push most people right over the edge. The kid just happens to be that final nudge. It doesn't matter if it was a huge shove (for an emo Paragon) or the tiniest of bumps (for the steely eyed soulless Renegades it sometimes seems 99% of the BSN prefer in these threads). Snapped is snapped.

I read a story once about a US Naval force that had captured a Japanese ship in WWII. Several of the Japanese crew committed suicide. A number of the US Marines that had captured the vessel had to be treated for psychological trauma (Shell shock they called it then). Why? They were the enemy, the Marines were veterans of the war, and they hadn't even been the ones to kill the crew, but something about it pushed them over the edge. Sometimes the mind says enough is enough.

We don't get to pick our nightmares, least I know I never do.

Modifié par Ariq, 24 mai 2012 - 09:46 .

[Cyne]

I could've gone with his grieving over a kid if the kid wasn't just any kid. If he was somehow connected to Shepard, like if Shepard was earth born and the kid reminded him of himself, or if he was having regrets about not being a father and probably never getting the chance now, or feeling angry about the fact that humanity was still, including the children, being left helpless by the other species, something like that. It's too abstract to have Shepard care about a kid purely because he's on earth and supposedly represents humanity. They should have used the opportunity to show what Shepard believes in, and connect him more directly to that particular child.

[brettc893]

Oh please, my Shepard killed tens of thousands of Batarian children with the Alpha Relay.

Starbrat wouldn't phase him at all, especially considering not 15 minutes earlier, he told Anderson that he couldn't blame himself for e every death.

[Baa Baa]

Sure, in reality a soldier would become the most haunted by the death of children. But BioWare just didn't do a good job of making us feel for that kid. When he died I just thought, that's a little sad, but I'm ready to re board the Normandy and get my crew back so I don't really care.

[Cypher_CS]

Your question:

Ozzyfan223 wrote...
 I don't see how adults can't be helpless too... 

Your own answer:

Ozzyfan223 wrote...
And no, I'm no father.  

In all honesty though, some people do, others don't - before being parents.
But, most will when they have children.

Adults might be helpless in situations.
Children are wholly helpless. That's the difference in a nutshell.

Ozzyfan223 wrote... 
No, I have not been in a real combat situation, nor do I think I know as much as those who do. I hope my original post did not imply such.

It did not. I didn't mean to imply differently either.
I'm merely stating that as a veteran soldier you learn to distance yourself. Moreover, the heat of the moment combined with the facelessness of it all, doesn't really get to you.
Combat PTSD is all fine and well, but it is usually caused by losing close friends or being the victim of an actual trauma.

What Shepard sees is usually faceless or unrecognized enemies or victims and, again, usually in the course of hectic battle or along those lines. Not helpless people he fails to rescue.
The Collectors' base might be a different kind of horror, but (a) he stopped them and, ( again, it was a battle.

What we see here is a child, alone, getting blasted away. Senseless. Purposeless.
Tragic.

Now, don't read into the above as me saying that it was perfectly executed. Cause it wasn't.
The intro with the Kid was good. The dreams were good.
But they did a poor job of tying it up with the Ending.
There should have been more to do or to talk in the dreams (Max Payne did it flawlessly, IMO) and maybe a better execution of the Catalyst's avatar in the ending. Maybe have it flicker or have him burnning a bit from time to time, or even change to different characters lost for a few seconds here and there, and then revert back to the Kid.

[Vergil_dgk]

Ozzyfan223 wrote...

is haunted by a death of one, single child? I know he's supposed to "represent" all those he couldn't save on earth, but still, he's haunted by only one death, a child's death.

Now Shepard has fought many battles, and I bet he's lost many in such battles, not even including the one's we've played. War has gruesome deaths, and Shepard has probably seen a lot of his close friends die in front of him. Hell, look at the collector base deaths, like Kelly and such.

But seeing a ship blow up with this kid inside is haunting him? I would understand earth making him uneasy, but he doesn't dream of all those who died on earth, only the kid. The dreams would've been much more understandable if he dreamt he was on earth and saw people dying around him, or if Anderson was the one who died.

It pisses me off.

It may ****** you off, but it's completely realistic. A person can experience heavy - even traumatic - events and come through relatively untouched, until suddenly the accumulation of events is too much and one, little thing, perhaps unexpected, makes it all come crashing down. I've worked in the Red Cross for many years and seen it happen to more than one experienced colleague.

[Vigilant111]

How come the catalyst knows what that kid on earth looks like and presents itself in his image? I smell IT again

[IoCaster]

Cypher_CS wrote...

Have you actually been in a real combat situation? Ever?

Yes, it's the children that haunt you more than most.

And he actually talked to that Kid, right before.
He wanted to help him, but he couldn't (cause the kid ran away). He failed to help a helpless.
Grown ups are not considered helpless. Children are.

You know what?
Scratch that first question.
Are you a father?

How is any of that relevant? It's a game and it either works for the player or it doesn't. I couldn't care less about the dumb brat because it's set up poorly and contrived. They should have made it a non-interactive cutscene and let the player skip through it if they found it annoying. There are already way too many cutscenes, auto-dialogue and railroading in this game as it stands. 

[DJBare]

I don't believe the inclusion of the child was meant as an emotional focus, but more a clue something is out of place, he went through a security locked door, then the building exploded and the kid is still alive in the air duct?, ask anyone how an explosion like that behaves in air ducts, the heat and pressure would have frazzled the little tyke.

[dreman9999]

XJ347 wrote...

It was forced and felt out of place.

Do you know that the limbic system controls dreams?
Do you know that it als is te base center of ptsd?
Do you know that reaper indoctrination takes control of the limbic system first?

[dreman9999]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Saints_ wrote...

The kid wasn't even real.

The kid was real. The marines waited for the kid to board the shuttle before closing the door. He's 10, and perfectly capable of getting on board by himself. Sorry.

What also made the child stand out even more was the fact that this is the single only child model in the entire ME series. That's right. There are no children anywhere, not even in the refugee area on the Citadel. You'd have expected to see some with their parents in ME2 in the spaceport area at least around the souvenier shops or getting food or something. No. No kids. Not in ME1, 2, and this is the only one in 3. That's why this child stands out so much.

And the reuse of the model as the Catalyst is simply artistic laziness. They simply didn't want to make a new character model.

Why did no one pick the child up?

[Gen Petitt]

Truth military personal are meant to be killers sometimes they snap but only to the losing of a close friend.

[The Night Mammoth]

dreman9999 wrote...

XJ347 wrote...

It was forced and felt out of place.

Do you know that the limbic system controls dreams?
Do you know that it als is te base center of ptsd?
Do you know that reaper indoctrination takes control of the limbic system first?

How is that relevant, like, at all?