257 réponses à ce sujet

[Versidious]

The child doesn't haunt your dreams because you really care about that child in particular. The child haunts your dreams because he's the last person you tried to save but couldn't. And yes, he is a child, and in reality that *does* count. If we discount IT, and take it as 'just a dream', it still makes sense. From a Renegade's perspective, you could view it as frustration rather than guilt. He's supposed to be humanity/the galaxy's greatest champion, and he's failing everyone. The point of the dreams is that Shepard is starting to break. Which he should be. We, the player, cannot feel the same pressure, because we know it's just a game, and that we are going to win. But our Shepard doesn't know that. He/she knows that we're up against tremendous odds, and he/she has to be feeling helpless, frustrated, and desperate.

[dreman9999]

Swimming Ferret wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Swimming Ferret wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Swimming Ferret wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...


With this theory, there is a reason why it feels forced.
If your a renagade, you should be the first person to feel that something is wrong.

I think it's just Bioware failing in the writing department again, what with Mac being in charge and trying to make everything sos totally emotional. They have done it an obscene amount of times in ME3.

How is that failing? The ideais to trick the player. If the playe rnever figures out what wrong till it's too late then it mean they wrote the indoctriantion well.

Oh great here we go with the 'turn this thread into yet another one saying why this-and-that totally proves I.T" <_<

I'm not say it proves anything. I'm saying it supports it. The only proof IT has is TIM control Shepard at the end of the game.

Then stop trying to shove the thread in that direction, it's annoying. There is a main thread for that.

Honestly, even Bioware said that ****** kid is apparently Shep's total guilt over everyone being too useless to save their own asses, something my renegade wouldn't give a crap about.

Bioware trying to shove grief on the character even if it's out of personality = fail in the RPG department. Mac, go away damnit.

I 'm just trying to get people to consider it. It is possible to the reason why it feels forced.

[Scam_poo]

Another one who forces himself not to see this as proof for the IT, but instead says "it pisses me off". When will people start actually believing in it if they already see these points? The kid was a damn halluzination during the whole game and it stands for the indoctrination attempts, that's why it returns in the end, although it would make absolutely no sense for exactly this kid to be the catalyst or whatever.

[Rxdiaz]

Icinix wrote...

Herr_Fritz wrote...

I have this strange feeling that most of us would have a different opinion of the child and his death if it weren't for the events at the end...

Not really. Even early trailers with the kid well before release had people groaning about an emotional scenario of a child being forced upon the player.

I agree, that kid was totally lame. As soon as I saw him in the vent and he went the other way I thought WTF? Later loser. And then he came back and I saw him die. I thought good for you, you little sh*t. Then he haunts my dreams?

The only time I can recall feeling that groaning feeling before was in Star Wars Episode I where Anikan was also a totally lame kid.

[ticklefist]

Cypher_CS wrote...

Have you actually been in a real combat situation? Ever?

Yes, it's the children that haunt you more than most.

And he actually talked to that Kid, right before.
He wanted to help him, but he couldn't (cause the kid ran away). He failed to help a helpless.
Grown ups are not considered helpless. Children are.

You know what?
Scratch that first question.
Are you a father?

For many the child simply didn't click on an emotional level. It truly felt forced. Manipulative. It's not necessarily about perspective. The player is Shepard. The player, in many cases, wasn't feeling what Shepard was. In a series which had typically asked you to choose how Shepard felt.

[dreman9999]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
1. Indocttination is subtle...It takes time

It varies.

2. The control of the limbic system that indoctrination has in to to allow the reaper the ability over time to manipulate the victem. Note how the theory is that Shepard is in the process of indoctrination. It simply means that it too early to influance Shepard yet.

They aren't influencing Shepard by causing these dreams, they do nothing to further the Reapers' goal. 

3.Your also missing that fact that there is no proof that the child is real. The idea is that it's a trick. Shepard talking about the childis not proof he is real. It's proof Shepard beleives he is real.

There's no proof that he's not real, so the point is irrelevant.

Remeber, this is a raceof machine with a history of deception.

Who are they decieving, how, and why?

Shepard is dreaming about a kid because she focuses her uncertainty over this war on him. It's a natural process, and it makes perfect sense, even though I can't agree with its inclusion from an omniscient reader stand-point.  

There's no reason to believe it's the Reapers manipulating her, you're looking for more meaning in something that has none, you're grasping at straws, and your summation of dreams and the limbic system is woefully simplistic.

2.My point is that they are using the dream to weak Shepards will so they eventully can...That what"STILL IN THE PROCESS OF" means.

The Reapers indoctrinate people to use as servants and to further their own goals. The process requires some sort of contact with, or for the subject to be in the vacinity of, Reaper technology. Shepard dreams about those she had lost, focusing on the child for obvious reasons, no matter how much it was forced. 

Shepard is not close to Reaper technology for long. The dreams do not weaken Shepard, or further the Reaper's goals in any way. 

3.The mass relay trap and indoctriantion.

What? How is that connected at all?

Shepardis facing a raceofmachine that can manipulate feelings, dreams and Ideals. And he has been in on and off contact with reaper tech for 3 years.

Not really. 

Small amount of contact with Sovereign's wreckage, then breifly with the human Reaper embryo, and then some contact with Object Rho. That's it. 

Indoctriantion takescontrol of thevary partof the mind ptsd comes form...And you can't see that the reapers could be trying to indoctrinate him in this manner when theyhavebeen shown to do so in the past?

No, I don't see how they're trying to indoctrinate her when she hasn't been in the situation where they've had the opportunity for the process to start. If the Reapers are trying to indoctrinate Shepard then where's the Reaper technology doing the work?

1. But they are levels of indoctrination. The person can be indoctrianted in a way that they don't know they are helping the reapers. Also, Shepard has contact with reapers and reaper tech for the past 3 years.
2.There acts of deception and point that the reaper can be extramely deceptive.
3.Shepardhas been in contat with reaper teck on and off for 3 years.....Shepard has plenty ofcontact with reapers and reaper teck to start the process, and I'm not just talking about Arrival. I'm taking aboutfrom the time Shepard landed on eden prime in ME1.

[Feanor_II]

That's trully one of the things I less liked from ME3 (this and autodialogue are the same thing.... because autodialogue could have been implemented to have Shepard personality fixated....)

It's so weird to see that, one of my Sheppards is a broken soldier.... so yeah, it could make sense, but not totatly with personality I intended to give..... ¿But the other three? Two of them are made of steel, one is a ruthless bastard, the other almost a emotionless Terminatior (Yes sir!, No sir! Mission complete sir!) and the other is good hearted but strong willed...... so that narrative techniques broke the characters I have been so long working on.....

[dreman9999]

Scam_poo wrote...

Another one who forces himself not to see this as proof for the IT, but instead says "it pisses me off". When will people start actually believing in it if they already see these points? The kid was a damn halluzination during the whole game and it stands for the indoctrination attempts, that's why it returns in the end, although it would make absolutely no sense for exactly this kid to be the catalyst or whatever.

Let's not call it proof...Lets call it support.

[Apathy1989]

M25105 wrote...



Relevant.

lol this is amazing.

Shepard being obcessed with the child makes sense for a paragon. Seeing children die is something that would scar anyone.

Renegade shep seems a bit insane though. He wouldn't give a crap.

[JBPBRC]

Never understood Shepard's trauma over this kid to be honest. He's killed 300,000+ Batarians (I'm sure many children also died in that blast) and barely blinks over it, nuked one of his own crew, potentially saw several deaths on the suicide mission, has some form of traumatizing background, colonist, sole survivor, whatever, but this ONE kid is the one that has him running around lost in nightmares?

Does. Not. Compute.

[The Night Mammoth]

dreman9999 wrote...
1. But they are levels of indoctrination. The person can be indoctrianted in a way that they don't know they are helping the reapers. Also, Shepard has contact with reapers and reaper tech for the past 3 years.

Yes, to the first part, indoctrination is subtle. 

No to the second. Shepard's contact with it is minimal. 

2.There acts of deception and point that the reaper can be extramely deceptive.

How does that prove the child isn't real?

3.Shepardhas been in contat with reaper teck on and off for 3 years.....Shepard has plenty ofcontact with reapers and reaper teck to start the process, and I'm not just talking about Arrival. I'm taking aboutfrom the time Shepard landed on eden prime in ME1.

Nope. It's an ongoing process. You need constant contact. Shepard has not had that contact, and he most certainly didn't come into contact with Reaper technology on Eden Prime. 

[Ridwan]

Scam_poo wrote...

Another one who forces himself not to see this as proof for the IT, but instead says "it pisses me off". When will people start actually believing in it if they already see these points? The kid was a damn halluzination during the whole game and it stands for the indoctrination attempts, that's why it returns in the end, although it would make absolutely no sense for exactly this kid to be the catalyst or whatever.

It doesn't prove a damn thing, it's just a fan made theory that's been blown out of porportions, by people who just can't admit that the ending really was that ****ty and convinced themselves BioWare had a deeper meaning behind the ending.

Modifié par M25105, 24 mai 2012 - 12:30 .

[dreman9999]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
1. But they are levels of indoctrination. The person can be indoctrianted in a way that they don't know they are helping the reapers. Also, Shepard has contact with reapers and reaper tech for the past 3 years.

Yes, to the first part, indoctrination is subtle. 

No to the second. Shepard's contact with it is minimal. 

2.There acts of deception and point that the reaper can be extramely deceptive.

How does that prove the child isn't real?

3.Shepardhas been in contat with reaper teck on and off for 3 years.....Shepard has plenty ofcontact with reapers and reaper teck to start the process, and I'm not just talking about Arrival. I'm taking aboutfrom the time Shepard landed on eden prime in ME1.

Nope. It's an ongoing process. You need constant contact. Shepard has not had that contact, and he most certainly didn't come into contact with Reaper technology on Eden Prime. 

1. It's not minamal at all. He has been fighting by husks  from Eden prime, been in contact with sovergin, 3 times, been inside a dead reaper, fight the collecter twice before the end of the game, found 2 reaper indoctriantion devices before arraval, been near lots of dragons teeth, and face the proto-reaper(that that thing indoctrianted TIM). That's all with out Arrival...That's lost of contact with reapers and reaper tech.

2.It put that child undersuspect. Remeber, their is no proofthe child is real and thereapers us indcotriantion to firsttake control ofthe limbicsystem, which is where hallucinationsbase in.

3. No,it not constate contact. Indoctriantion can stack. Ican happen with on and off contact...That's how Saren got indoctrinated.

[dreman9999]

M25105 wrote...

Scam_poo wrote...

Another one who forces himself not to see this as proof for the IT, but instead says "it pisses me off". When will people start actually believing in it if they already see these points? The kid was a damn halluzination during the whole game and it stands for the indoctrination attempts, that's why it returns in the end, although it would make absolutely no sense for exactly this kid to be the catalyst or whatever.

It doesn't prove a damn thing, it's just a fan made theory that's been blown out of porportions, by people who just can't admit that the ending really was that ****ty and convinced themselves BioWare had a deeper meaning behind the ending.

You yet to tell me why and how TIM is controling Shepard and Anderson at the end of the game.

But you still right but the child not being proof of IT...It simply supports IT.

[Mr. Big Pimpin]

I find this situation similar to how Shepard can ruthlessly screw over the krogan and the quarians, yet when the asari planet falls, he/she automatically becomes upset. Because "everybody likes the asari lol". Apparently everybody's supposed to love Vent Boy too.

Modifié par Mr. Big Pimpin, 24 mai 2012 - 12:55 .

[The Night Mammoth]

dreman9999 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
1. But they are levels of indoctrination. The person can be indoctrianted in a way that they don't know they are helping the reapers. Also, Shepard has contact with reapers and reaper tech for the past 3 years.

Yes, to the first part, indoctrination is subtle. 

No to the second. Shepard's contact with it is minimal. 

2.There acts of deception and point that the reaper can be extramely deceptive.

How does that prove the child isn't real?

3.Shepardhas been in contat with reaper teck on and off for 3 years.....Shepard has plenty ofcontact with reapers and reaper teck to start the process, and I'm not just talking about Arrival. I'm taking aboutfrom the time Shepard landed on eden prime in ME1.

Nope. It's an ongoing process. You need constant contact. Shepard has not had that contact, and he most certainly didn't come into contact with Reaper technology on Eden Prime. 

1. It's not minamal at all. He has been fighting by husks  from Eden prime, been in contact with sovergin, 3 times, been inside a dead reaper, fight the collecter twice before the end of the game, found 2 reaper indoctriantion devices before arraval, been near lots of dragons teeth, and face the proto-reaper(that that thing indoctrianted TIM). That's all with out Arrival...That's lost of contact with reapers and reaper tech.

The Derelict Reaper and the Reaper embryo are the only two things that can indoctrinate people in that list. 

He also hasn't been alone in any of that, or around Reaper technology for any significant amount of time. 

2.It put that child undersuspect. Remeber, their is no proofthe child is real and thereapers us indcotriantion to firsttake control ofthe limbicsystem, which is where hallucinationsbase in.

There isn't any proof, gotcha. 

3. No,it not constate contact. Indoctriantion can stack. Ican happen with on and off contact...That's how Saren got indoctrinated.

Not enough contact regardless. 

[Cypher_CS]

Herr_Fritz wrote...

loungeshep wrote...

Cypher_CS wrote...

Have you actually been in a real combat situation? Ever?

Yes, it's the children that haunt you more than most.

And he actually talked to that Kid, right before.
He wanted to help him, but he couldn't (cause the kid ran away). He failed to help a helpless.
Grown ups are not considered helpless. Children are.

You know what?
Scratch that first question.
Are you a father?

Wait, shouldn't the question be 'Is Shepard a father'?

No, because the first question still applies to Shepard, if not for the guy who I replied to.

I, personally, can answer yes to both questions, actually.

[Silhouett3]

Versidious wrote...

The child doesn't haunt your dreams because you really care about that child in particular. The child haunts your dreams because he's the last person you tried to save but couldn't. And yes, he is a child, and in reality that *does* count. If we discount IT, and take it as 'just a dream', it still makes sense. From a Renegade's perspective, you could view it as frustration rather than guilt. He's supposed to be humanity/the galaxy's greatest champion, and he's failing everyone......

Shepard did not try. Shepard couldn't even try. Bioware didn't want Shepard to get a chance to save the kid. It's the kid who dissapeared into nonexistence. In a total of 3 seconds and without making any crawling noise. Throughout the past 2 games, helpless civilians always stayed put where they are, cried to Shepard for help, scared as ****. This particular kid is either not real or is a superhero, a child Batman.

[dreman9999]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
1. But they are levels of indoctrination. The person can be indoctrianted in a way that they don't know they are helping the reapers. Also, Shepard has contact with reapers and reaper tech for the past 3 years.

Yes, to the first part, indoctrination is subtle. 

No to the second. Shepard's contact with it is minimal. 

2.There acts of deception and point that the reaper can be extramely deceptive.

How does that prove the child isn't real?

3.Shepardhas been in contat with reaper teck on and off for 3 years.....Shepard has plenty ofcontact with reapers and reaper teck to start the process, and I'm not just talking about Arrival. I'm taking aboutfrom the time Shepard landed on eden prime in ME1.

Nope. It's an ongoing process. You need constant contact. Shepard has not had that contact, and he most certainly didn't come into contact with Reaper technology on Eden Prime. 

1. It's not minamal at all. He has been fighting by husks  from Eden prime, been in contact with sovergin, 3 times, been inside a dead reaper, fight the collecter twice before the end of the game, found 2 reaper indoctriantion devices before arraval, been near lots of dragons teeth, and face the proto-reaper(that that thing indoctrianted TIM). That's all with out Arrival...That's lost of contact with reapers and reaper tech.

The Derelict Reaper and the Reaper embryo are the only two things that can indoctrinate people in that list. 

He also hasn't been alone in any of that, or around Reaper technology for any significant amount of time. 

2.It put that child undersuspect. Remeber, their is no proofthe child is real and thereapers us indcotriantion to firsttake control ofthe limbicsystem, which is where hallucinationsbase in.

There isn't any proof, gotcha. 

3. No,it not constate contact. Indoctriantion can stack. Ican happen with on and off contact...That's how Saren got indoctrinated.

Not enough contact regardless. 

1.Nope...
http://masseffect.wi...#Indoctrination 
Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals ....

2.I said it support the theory.. The onlyproof need is the fact TIM control Shepard and Anderson at the end of the game with indoctrination.

3.It's enough to get it started...Which is what the theory states. Not enough to fully indoctriante Shepard.

[Cypher_CS]

M25105 wrote...

when kids get in trouble, first thing they do is seek out an adult to help them

That actually depends how the kid was raised. Rather, it depends on the attachement style between the child and his parents - if it's secure attachment, avoidant attachment or ambivalent attachment.
With a history of Secure Attachment, yes, the kid will seek out an adult to help.
With Avoidant, the kid will not.
With ambivalent, the kid will most likely not.

[Herr_Fritz]

Cypher_CS wrote...
You know what?
Scratch that first question.

Cypher_CS wrote...
No, because the first question still applies to Shepard, if not for the guy who I replied to.

...?

[Cypher_CS]

Archontor wrote...

My Shep was on mindoir and akuze. He saw far worse than a single dead child in both those cases. 

And who said he didn't have nightmares about those after those happened?

These things go away. 


Look, I do agree those Dream Sequences felt very out of place in ME3.
For two reasons:
1. Max Payne did them far better.
2. None of the previous games had them. Now, if, for example, the previous games had some dreams and in ME3 we get dreams on this one theme - that would have worked far far better.

[Ridwan]

dreman9999 wrote...

M25105 wrote...

Scam_poo wrote...

Another one who forces himself not to see this as proof for the IT, but instead says "it pisses me off". When will people start actually believing in it if they already see these points? The kid was a damn halluzination during the whole game and it stands for the indoctrination attempts, that's why it returns in the end, although it would make absolutely no sense for exactly this kid to be the catalyst or whatever.

It doesn't prove a damn thing, it's just a fan made theory that's been blown out of porportions, by people who just can't admit that the ending really was that ****ty and convinced themselves BioWare had a deeper meaning behind the ending.

You yet to tell me why and how TIM is controling Shepard and Anderson at the end of the game.

But you still right but the child not being proof of IT...It simply supports IT.

Augmented by Reapers as a reward for warning, how should I know, plenty of stuff doesn't get explained.

[Cypher_CS]

dreman9999 wrote...

If it not real then how and why is TIM controling Shepard and Anderson(who spent the entire game fighting reapers on earth.) at the end of the game?

Yeah... no.

Cause, you know, Indoctrination is not about directly controlling someone.
What Sovereign did to Saren, at the end, or what Harbinger did to the Collector general is quite different than just indoctrination.
And doesn't necessarily requires indoctrination to begin with.

[The Night Mammoth]

dreman9999 wrote...
]1.Nope...
http://masseffect.wi...#Indoctrination 

Nope what? You link to an article but don't explain the relevance. Point dismissed. 

2.I said it support the theory.. The onlyproof need is the fact TIM control Shepard and Anderson at the end of the game with indoctrination.

The Illusive Man is using Reaper technology of his own invention to control them both. It proves nothing about the child. 

3.It's enough to get it started...Which is what the theory states. Not enough to fully indoctriante Shepard.

I don't see anyone else in the series suffering similar effects. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 24 mai 2012 - 01:08 .