257 réponses à ce sujet

[nitefyre410]

Yeah talk to any solider that has been in combat, and look in their eyes... Being a Solider does not make Shepard any less human. Its Bioware bad writing that people have this misconception of what Renegade Shepard is, instead of being someone who does not head the rules they come off as damn a Sociopath.

Every solider is effected by the deaths they see on the battlefield and if they are not... they get there heads checked because not being effected by it is sign of serious issues.

That being said...

The kid failed utter because Bioware failed in the execution... which seems the running the theme in Mass Effect 3.

[dreman9999]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
1. What do not understand out of
"Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals"

HOW IS IT RELEVANT?

2. It proves that Shepardi and Anderson is in the prosess of indoctrination...That'sthe only way TIM can control them.

Nope. You're either indoctrinated, or you aren't. Controlled, or not. The Illusive Man is using technology of his own invention to force control over Shepard and Anderson. 

3.Indoctriantion is subtle...Also, Shepard is the one in the series with the most contact with reaper tech out of all the heros and is the focus of the reapers attention.

No more contact than say, Garrus. 

Why isn't he feeling the effects?

1. Well a hush is being who is a victem of indoctriantion...So are collectors.
They both arefilled with reaper tech...
2.*Sigh.....
  
With that, going bact to stage one....
It proves that Shepardi and Anderson is in the prosess of indoctrination...That'sthe only way TIM can control them. 
3. Where was Garus in eden prime and Arrival? Is he guarrenteed to be on every mission? Also, indoctrination is subtle.

Modifié par dreman9999, 24 mai 2012 - 02:23 .

[Someone With Mass]

It worked the first time. Then it was just forced. It would have been way more effective if it had been about someone close to Shepard, like the person he/she just got done having steamy sexy time with before having that nightmare.

Just saying. At that point, I couldn't care less about the brat. He overstayed his welcome.

[christrek1982]

Cypher_CS wrote...

Have you actually been in a real combat situation? Ever?

Yes, it's the children that haunt you more than most.

And he actually talked to that Kid, right before.
He wanted to help him, but he couldn't (cause the kid ran away). He failed to help a helpless.
Grown ups are not considered helpless. Children are.

You know what?
Scratch that first question.
Are you a father?

well said I had no Issue with the child and I thaght the dreams where well done and  a good way of showing the stress that shepherd was under the only bad this is it get the player more attached the there sheps only to have to kill them at the ends of the game.

[MrStoob]

To Shepard, the child represents everyone on Earth who cannot be saved. So it's not the child, per se, but what he represents. This is hinted at directly after the air duct scene in the Anderson's conversation, and also speaking with Garrus when Shep mentions the child.

And also that it's a child only 6 or 7 years old. That in itself is enough to trouble anyone, regardless of combat experience.

Doctor "I'm sorry Commander Shepard, but your mother had died"
Shepard "Who gives a ****, it's not as bad as that time on Virmire..."

No.

[The Night Mammoth]

dreman9999 wrote...
1. Well a hush is being who is a victem of indoctriantion...So are collectors.
They both arefilled with reaper tech...

Do you see Shepard acting like a Husk? Is she filled with Reaper technology? 

No. 

2.*Sigh.....
  
With that, going bact to stage one....
It proves that Shepardi and Anderson is in the prosess of indoctrination...That'sthe only way TIM can control them.

Indoctrination is control over the mind, it's a process of persuasion. Clearly, Shepard and Anderson are of their right minds. The Illusive Man is exterting physcial control using technology he created. They are not indoctrinated. 

3. Where was Garus in eden prime and Arrival? Is he guarrenteed to be on every mission? Also, indoctrination is subtle.

Eden Prime has no contact with Reaper technology. Shepard doesn't do Arrival. Garrus is taken on every possible mission. 

Why isn't he feeling the effects? 

I know, it's because Shepard isn't being indoctrinated. 

[The Angry One]

MrStoob wrote...

Doctor "I'm sorry Commander Shepard, but your mother had died"
Shepard "Who gives a ****, it's not as bad as that time on Virmire..."

No.

Terrible analogy. Shepard's mother is someone she knows and loves (assuming you're talking about Spacer of course).

THIS KID IS NOBODY. I don't care if he's 7 years old. Millions of 7 year olds are dying on Earth in that exact moment.
My Shepard would simply not devote any thought to him. He's there, then he goes, saying nothing of note, being no one of note.

[jules_vern18]

Ozzyfan223 wrote...

is haunted by a death of one, single child? I know he's supposed to "represent" all those he couldn't save on earth, but still, he's haunted by only one death, a child's death.

Now Shepard has fought many battles, and I bet he's lost many in such battles, not even including the one's we've played. War has gruesome deaths, and Shepard has probably seen a lot of his close friends die in front of him. Hell, look at the collector base deaths, like Kelly and such.

But seeing a ship blow up with this kid inside is haunting him? I would understand earth making him uneasy, but he doesn't dream of all those who died on earth, only the kid. The dreams would've been much more understandable if he dreamt he was on earth and saw people dying around him, or if Anderson was the one who died.

It pisses me off.

Are you familiar with the intricacies of and triggers for PTSD, OP?

PTSD can bring people back to unexpected places and can be triggered by unexpected events.  A soldier might see 5 of his team mates die, for example, but starts experiencing PTSD symptoms when he sees a dog step on an IED.  It's often an ongoing culmination of anxiety-provoking factors, not simply a linear response to a single event.

[MattFini]

Cypher_CS wrote...

Have you actually been in a real combat situation? Ever?

Yes, it's the children that haunt you more than most.

And he actually talked to that Kid, right before.
He wanted to help him, but he couldn't (cause the kid ran away). He failed to help a helpless.
Grown ups are not considered helpless. Children are.

You know what?
Scratch that first question.
Are you a father?

The idea behind it, as you're describing, is sound.  But BioWare's execution of it was pretentious, heavy-handed and badly implemented all-around.

From the very first meeting with Vent Kid, his dialogue is off, the situation is bizarre and it's all downhill from there.

[Elite Midget]

TJX2045 wrote...

Death of an adult =/= Death of a child.

elitesalt wrote...

H4nniba11 wrote...

Indoctrination.

terrible, manipulative, sacchirine writing.

Really?  I actually thought it was pretty legitmate.  It's a CHILD!  They have so much to live for and they also have innocence before being corrupted.  To see that innocence taken away is one thing; to see that taken away and then have them die or get killed is another.

Man, people must hate children these days.

Kinda hard to feel bad about a child you just met. Not like Shepard hasn't seen many other children die. What makes this one special? The only thing he told you was that you couldn't help him than he teleported away. It was way too forced. If they wanted people to care they would have got Shepard to know the child and have them around a bit before them dying despite Shepards best efforts. In the case of the game Shepard didn't try that hard to save the kid, the kid made his choice, and moved on. No reason for guilt at all, the kid was a complete stranger.

[Ushanka]

dreman9999 wrote...
But what if your facing an enemy that can physically manipulate these feelings?

Well, that's a big problem... But people are not machines. Ask any veteran about nightmers, they all have them... Just human psychology, your mind react at this things even if you don't want it.

[Elite Midget]

nitefyre410 wrote...

Yeah talk to any solider that has been in combat, and look in their eyes... Being a Solider does not make Shepard any less human. Its Bioware bad writing that people have this misconception of what Renegade Shepard is, instead of being someone who does not head the rules they come off as damn a Sociopath.

Every solider is effected by the deaths they see on the battlefield and if they are not... they get there heads checked because not being effected by it is sign of serious issues.

That being said...

The kid failed utter because Bioware failed in the execution... which seems the running the theme in Mass Effect 3.

There's a difference from watching a stranger die that refused your help than connecting with someone that later dies despite you best efforts.

Lets say you meet a kid on the streets. They flip you off and refuses your help. Later they die, do you honestly feel traumatized by that?

Lets say you meet another kid, you play soccer with them and bond over Ice cream or something. Than the kid dies despite you trying to help them and them not refusing your help. That would be traumatizing and cause you to second guess yourself and ask what you could have done differently to save them.

It's also why shows that do a Love Triangle always push the girl/guy that can't win hard on the Main Character. Than when he's/she's confused over who he/she reslly loves the girl/guy that can't win ends up dying, a cheap plot device for beginner writers, to save them or something. This makes fans sad and lets them connect with the character and appreciate them more because they got to know them up to their mandated death.

If they had a love triangle but refused to push the girl/guy that can't win than no one would honestly care if that person dies. It's all about connection and a good writer makes it a priority to try and establish that connection between the reader/viewer and the characters so that they care about the well being of said characters.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 24 mai 2012 - 03:06 .

[Taboo]

MattFini wrote...

Cypher_CS wrote...

Have you actually been in a real combat situation? Ever?

Yes, it's the children that haunt you more than most.

And he actually talked to that Kid, right before.
He wanted to help him, but he couldn't (cause the kid ran away). He failed to help a helpless.
Grown ups are not considered helpless. Children are.

You know what?
Scratch that first question.
Are you a father?

The idea behind it, as you're describing, is sound.  But BioWare's execution of it was pretentious, heavy-handed and badly implemented all-around.

From the very first meeting with Vent Kid, his dialogue is off, the situation is bizarre and it's all downhill from there.

There's a word I never thought I'd use to describe a video game.

LOL @ Mac Walters.

[Kulthar Drax]

Personally, when the kid ran off after you tried to help him in the duct, I immediately thought "well, screw you too then kid, you deserve to die now. Bye!" and then shortly after I started thinking "hmm, he disappeared awfully fast. Was he even real?". But either way, I didn't spare him a single thought after the kid got blown up, but instead started thinking "well damn, how are we going to stop the Reapers?"

[vixvicco]

Saints_ wrote...

The kid wasn't even real.

Says who?

[Elite Midget]

vixvicco wrote...

Saints_ wrote...

The kid wasn't even real.

Says who?

I still want to know how he opened that locked door.

[jules_vern18]

Elite Midget wrote...

TJX2045 wrote...

Death of an adult =/= Death of a child.

elitesalt wrote...

H4nniba11 wrote...

Indoctrination.

terrible, manipulative, sacchirine writing.

Really?  I actually thought it was pretty legitmate.  It's a CHILD!  They have so much to live for and they also have innocence before being corrupted.  To see that innocence taken away is one thing; to see that taken away and then have them die or get killed is another.

Man, people must hate children these days.

Kinda hard to feel bad about a child you just met. Not like Shepard hasn't seen many other children die. What makes this one special? The only thing he told you was that you couldn't help him than he teleported away. It was way too forced. If they wanted people to care they would have got Shepard to know the child and have them around a bit before them dying despite Shepards best efforts. In the case of the game Shepard didn't try that hard to save the kid, the kid made his choice, and moved on. No reason for guilt at all, the kid was a complete stranger.

Shepard had not personally seen a single child die until ME3.  It made the injustice of the war personal (although I agree it was executed in a cliched way). 

Also, um, I don't think you have to "know" a person to care about seeing them die.  That's borderline sociopathy.  Even so, it's not like Shepard has never seen the kid before.  He watches him play during the opening sequence (and how many other times out that window?), sees him being hunted by husks during the escape from earth, tries to help him get away, and watches him get vaporized as he nearly escaped the planet.  That triggers an empathetic (and perfectly normal and believable) response.

[jules_vern18]

Elite Midget wrote...

vixvicco wrote...

Saints_ wrote...

The kid wasn't even real.

Says who?

I still want to know how he opened that locked door.

Because it couldn't possibly be that the door panel animation not triggering for the split second you see the scene from a block away?  No, that would be too big of an oversight from a company that used sprites in the same gaming area.

[JBPBRC]

Forgot to mention another thing, Shepard seeing the random colonist getting turned into Reaper slushie on the Collector base also has no effect on his conscience as well. Geez.

Modifié par JBPBRC, 24 mai 2012 - 03:30 .

[The Angry One]

jules_vern18 wrote...

Also, um, I don't think you have to "know" a person to care about seeing them die.  That's borderline sociopathy.  Even so, it's not like Shepard has never seen the kid before.  He watches him play during the opening sequence (and how many other times out that window?), sees him being hunted by husks during the escape from earth, tries to help him get away, and watches him get vaporized as he nearly escaped the planet.  That triggers an empathetic (and perfectly normal and believable) response.

There is a difference between caring and feeling empathy for death and suffering, and being a hardened soldier who lets this affect you constantly in your dreams and thoughts despite the numerous other people you've been close to who have died.

To put it another way. If I see some random child die in a manner such as in t he game, I would be sad, but I would move on.
If someone close to me died, child or adult - it doesn't matter. It would affect me far, far worse. This is simple human nature. This is something both Mac Walters and some people on this thread seem to not be aware of.
I can only hope you never suffer a personal tragedy like this in order to finally understand this.

Modifié par The Angry One, 24 mai 2012 - 03:32 .

[The Angry One]

JBPBRC wrote...

Forgot to mention another thing, Shepard seeing the random colonist getting turned into Reaper slushie on the Collector base also has no effect on his conscience as well. Geez.

You know what? That'd affect me far worse. Seeing an innocent person being MELTED.
In the end, the kid got blown up in a shuttle. Sure, this doesn't diminish the fact that someone just died in a terrible and violent manner, but it is still more distant and impersonal than watching someone melt into a bloody puddle of goo as they scream and cry for help.

[RavenEyry]

I notice Shep is never seen having bad dreams about Lillith, that colonist that get's mulched in front of them. If you cam later, Shepard also doesn't have dreams about Kelly, whom they knew significantly better than Lillith or the kid.

EDIT: Turns out I missed the post two above this which says the same thing.

Modifié par RavenEyry, 24 mai 2012 - 03:37 .

[Samtheman63]

IT

[MattFini]

Taboo-XX wrote...

MattFini wrote...

Cypher_CS wrote...

Have you actually been in a real combat situation? Ever?

Yes, it's the children that haunt you more than most.

And he actually talked to that Kid, right before.
He wanted to help him, but he couldn't (cause the kid ran away). He failed to help a helpless.
Grown ups are not considered helpless. Children are.

You know what?
Scratch that first question.
Are you a father?

The idea behind it, as you're describing, is sound.  But BioWare's execution of it was pretentious, heavy-handed and badly implemented all-around.

From the very first meeting with Vent Kid, his dialogue is off, the situation is bizarre and it's all downhill from there.

There's a word I never thought I'd use to describe a video game.

LOL @ Mac Walters.

Am I wrong?  

Clearly, this was supposed to tug at the heartstrings and anchor the entire game in grief by setting the stage early on.  

With better implementation it might've worked.  

But it's so clumsily done that you can see it for what it is:  a manipulative, groan-inducing attempt at getting a reaction, rather than earning one. 

BioWare's version of Oscar-bait.  

[BlackoutOmega]

H4nniba11 wrote...

Indoctrination.

Shut up.