257 réponses à ce sujet

[Elite Midget]

jules_vern18 wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

vixvicco wrote...

Saints_ wrote...

The kid wasn't even real.

Says who?

I still want to know how he opened that locked door.

Because it couldn't possibly be that the door panel animation not triggering for the split second you see the scene from a block away?  No, that would be too big of an oversight from a company that used sprites in the same gaming area.

So you're saying the Bioware staff is lazy and doesn't pay attention to detail?

[ArchDuck]

XJ347 wrote...

It was forced and felt out of place.

Yup. Really it is the writers taking away player agency. Not to mention a lack of imagination.

They could have easily had a psych assessment before being released at the beginning that would have allowed them to put {insert name of character which the player stated haunted them the most} ghostly character into the dreams.

Modifié par ArchDuck, 24 mai 2012 - 03:46 .

[The Angry One]

Just read this, everyone. In the context of Vent Boy.

www.cinemablend.com/games/Shepard-Deeper-Character-Mass-Effect-3-38646.html

Mac Walters decided to make Shepard "deep". He decided to do this, it seems, by removing all player agency and forcing emotions in spite of background, alignment choices and common sense.

[The Night Mammoth]

Elite Midget wrote...

So you're saying the Bioware staff is lazy and doesn't pay attention to detail?

Don't know about lazy, but their attention to detail in this latest installment is...... lacking. This possibility is one of many. 

[Joolazoo]

nitefyre410 wrote...

Yeah talk to any solider that has been in combat, and look in their eyes... Being a Solider does not make Shepard any less human. Its Bioware bad writing that people have this misconception of what Renegade Shepard is, instead of being someone who does not head the rules they come off as damn a Sociopath.

Every solider is effected by the deaths they see on the battlefield and if they are not... they get there heads checked because not being effected by it is sign of serious issues.

That being said...

The kid failed utter because Bioware failed in the execution... which seems the running the theme in Mass Effect 3.

I love how you guys use every, but never actually refer to the character you're talking about. Shepard has almost never shown to be severely emotionally impacted by things much worse than a single childs death, but all the sudden this one death has a prolonged affect on him? Half of the dialogue is Shepard acting casual a few seconds after he's slaughtered dozens of people. Shepard is a super soldier who has undoubtedly seen way more death than any living soldier right now. He has more on his shoulders than any other man in the universe's history...but this is how he cracks? It's not realistic...it makes no sense and to top it off the kid is badly executed.

The only defense any of you have is "Shepard chose now to grow emotions while not having them the last 2 years."

Modifié par Joolazoo, 24 mai 2012 - 03:54 .

[ArchDuck]

The Angry One wrote...

Just read this, everyone. In the context of Vent Boy.

www.cinemablend.com/games/Shepard-Deeper-Character-Mass-Effect-3-38646.html

Mac Walters decided to make Shepard "deep". He decided to do this, it seems, by removing all player agency and forcing emotions in spite of background, alignment choices and common sense.

It is sad really. A great idea but done in an unimaginative heavy hand fail kind of way. I do believe he wants to be in books or cinema not games.

As I said, a nice pysch exam scene at the beginning of the game would have allowed that background information that they never introduced, would have allowed the player to pick who they identified as representing their loss, etc.

Modifié par ArchDuck, 24 mai 2012 - 04:00 .

[The Night Mammoth]

The Angry One wrote...

Just read this, everyone. In the context of Vent Boy.

www.cinemablend.com/games/Shepard-Deeper-Character-Mass-Effect-3-38646.html

Mac Walters decided to make Shepard "deep". He decided to do this, it seems, by removing all player agency and forcing emotions in spite of background, alignment choices and common sense.

Ha! 

Dreaming the same thing three times whilst annoying the player is not deeper. 

This somewhat confirms the suspicions I've had, that certain writers were trying to develop Shepard as her own character, rather than the avatar of the player. 

You know what would have helped make Shepard a deeper character? Doing something with those background choices you made but were forgotten about. Instead of attempting to be deep by making Shepard dream, how about something that's meaningful to the character? Here's an underdeveloped plot point: spacer Shepard has a f*cking mother out there. Instead of being concerned about this random irrelevant kid, how about she show a little bit of concern for her own family first?

Some of the decisions in this game are beginning to worry me. 

[SnakeSNMF]

He's a pedophile.

[bleetman]

I did find it a bit strange. But then, my Shepard's a colonist. She must've seen her fair share of dead children back on Mindoir.

That said, I don't resent the idea. I actually really like them putting in scenes and dialogue that present Shepard as starting to crack under the pressure. What I don't like is a) that it's a bit cack handed, as the leaving Earth scene effectively boiled down to "HEY HERE'S A KID OH HE DIED YOU OUGHT TO CARE ARE YOU CARING?", and because I can't not have those scenes.

Maybe my Shepard was a stone cold ****. Maybe she did whatever was necessary, no matter the cost, and never once questioned herself. It was justified. Always justified. Victory at all costs. Lolno now you loose sleep over random children lol sorry not your character any more.

Hnnnngh.

[The Angry One]

Nobody's saying that the idea can't work, just that it was poorly executed.

If, say, Shepard saw this kid in a Reaper pod getting melted. That might work, because it's visual trauma. Or you could, you know, let the player decide if it affects their Shepard or not.
Wow, player choice affecting characterisation? Who do I think these people are? BioWare?

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Ha! 

Dreaming the same thing three times whilst annoying the player is not deeper. 

This
somewhat confirms the suspicions I've had, that certain writers were
trying to develop Shepard as her own character, rather than the avatar
of the player. 

You know what would have helped make Shepard a
deeper character? Doing something with those background choices you made
but were forgotten about. Instead of attempting to be deep by making
Shepard dream, how about something that's meaningful to the character?
Here's an underdeveloped plot point: spacer Shepard has a f*cking mother
out there. Instead of being concerned about this random irrelevant kid,
how about she show a little bit of concern for her own family first?

Some of the decisions in this game are beginning to worry me. 

Using Shepard's dreams to promote a "deeper" character for example had infinite potential if they used Shepard's background and past events. Let's see the traumatic attack on Mindoir, or the events on Akuze.
Let's see the people Shepard knows, their LI, their mother, their friends.

If, say, Shepard saw themselves with their LI burning in the final dream instead of Random Boy from Nowhere, that would impact the player as well as Shepard and immerse us in the moment.

Modifié par The Angry One, 24 mai 2012 - 04:07 .

[estebanus]

*Facepalm*

[robarcool]

The Invisible Commando wrote...

Cypher_CS wrote...

Have you actually been in a real combat situation? Ever?

Yes, it's the children that haunt you more than most.

And he actually talked to that Kid, right before.
He wanted to help him, but he couldn't (cause the kid ran away). He failed to help a helpless.
Grown ups are not considered helpless. Children are.

You know what?
Scratch that first question.
Are you a father?

Makes good for Paragon Shepards, but not so much for murderous Renegades.

Sigh. Renegade not equals evil. It means practical and even practical people have emotions.

Modifié par robarcool, 24 mai 2012 - 04:09 .

[The Night Mammoth]

The Angry One wrote...

Using Shepard's dreams to promote a "deeper" character for example had infinite potential if they used Shepard's background and past events. Let's see the traumatic attack on Mindoir, or the events on Akuze.
Let's see the people Shepard knows, their LI, their mother, their friends.

If, say, Shepard saw themselves with their LI burning in the final dream instead of Random Boy from Nowhere, that would impact the player as well as Shepard and immerse us in the moment.

Definitely. Like a good number of other ideas in ME3 I'm opposed to it. 

But my god, they're not doing well executing them this time around. Half the concepts put forward in the last ten minutes are fine, but the game simply doesn't support them.

This is one. Why the kid? PTSD mumbo jumbo bleh, this is a story, the ideas have to appeal to the audience. It looks like this one does not. Like you said, there are plenty of other focal points that fit much better. Background choices are great. Elysium, Akuze, and Mindoir, are all great ones. 

[The Night Mammoth]

robarcool wrote...

The Invisible Commando wrote...

Cypher_CS wrote...

Have you actually been in a real combat situation? Ever?

Yes, it's the children that haunt you more than most.

And he actually talked to that Kid, right before.
He wanted to help him, but he couldn't (cause the kid ran away). He failed to help a helpless.
Grown ups are not considered helpless. Children are.

You know what?
Scratch that first question.
Are you a father?

Makes good for Paragon Shepards, but not so much for murderous Renegades.

Sigh. Renegade not equals evil. It means practical and even practical people have emotions.

All true, he's not evil. Better summised as this: Renegade = d*ckhead Shepard. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 24 mai 2012 - 04:15 .

[thesnake777]

I did not understand why the child dying was suppose to effect shep as badly as it did. I am not saying that is not tragic but thats what shep dreams about? you can say its the first time that shep sees a child die, but thats unlikely given sheps career. For example sole survivor shep watched his entire squad get brutally ripped apart. that would haunt sole survivor shep. Ruthless shep got 2/3rds of his/her men slaughtered.
Personally I would have thought shep would dream about either kaiden or ash, whoever died on virmire. That would have made more sense and I think been more compelling to the players.
The kid was a character introduced in the third game who we spoke too for maybe a minute if that. While the person we left on virmire was someone you actually spent time with.

[bleetman]

robarcool wrote...

Sigh. Renegade not equals evil. It means practical and even practical people have emotions.

Well, sure, but we're talking about a morality that encompasses death on a regular basis. Hell, a really renegade Shepard can take the opportunity to sacrifice the ten-thousand strong crew of the Destiny Ascension purely to get rid of the council, because they "were always holding us back".

Which obviously isn't what every renegade character is like. 'Renegade' has (or had, perhaps) a fairly wide sphere of personalities. But you'd expect someone of that mindset to not be so distraut by the death of one child to the point of having vivid recurring nightmares involving him.

Modifié par bleetman, 24 mai 2012 - 04:20 .

[JadedLibertine]

jules_vern18 wrote...

snip

Also, um, I don't think you have to "know" a person to care about seeing them die.  That's borderline sociopathy.  Even so, it's not like Shepard has never seen the kid before.  He watches him play during the opening sequence (and how many other times out that window?), sees him being hunted by husks during the escape from earth, tries to help him get away, and watches him get vaporized as he nearly escaped the planet.  That triggers an empathetic (and perfectly normal and believable) response.

My renegade Shepard is a cold blooded narcissist and probably a borderline sociopath who would be chillingly indifferent to a strange child's death, an interesting character to play as but one I sincerely hope I never cross paths with.  But that is not relevant as on my first and so far only playthrough I used my paragon Shepard who also happened to be the Butcher of Torfan.

The shuttle explosion was the only part of the opening that was executed competently.  If they had left it at that and let the implications of what had happened sink in, it would have been a very affecting moment.  Unfortunately we could not be trusted to think their own thoughts and feel our own emotions and we were forced to endure the crass emotional manipulation of the dream sequences.  

If the writers wanted to hint at Shepard's emotional and mental state they could have done so in a more subtle way.  In ME2 Khalisah asks Shepard a loaded question, why she decided to save the Destiny Ascension and the council at the cost of Alliance ships?  Shepard replies by stating the name of every single Alliance ship that was sacrificed.  As a long serving Alliance officer there would have been people she knew and was friends with serving on those ships, I can imagine she attended memorial services for those lost, met and spoken with their families.  Perhaps the same thing happened after Torfan, every loss mattered.

Though dream sequences have never been used as storytelling device in the previous games, if implemented properly they could have been useful.  They could have shown Mindoir, Akuze, Torfan, Virmire, the suicide mission.  Lucid dreams on the Normandy, which is pretty much Shepard's home so seeing Samantha being processed and squasmates and crew being turned into husks or banshees in a previously safe and familiar environment would be much more nightmarish.  At most, the kid should have just been a supporting character.

We can detect the unfortunate fingerprints of one particular member of the writing staff.  Though undeniably talented he was over-promoted to a role he was not best suited for and it didn't end well, like putting Thane in the heating ducts or having Zaeed in charge of the secondary team.

[dreman9999]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
1. Well a hush is being who is a victem of indoctriantion...So are collectors.
They both arefilled with reaper tech...

Do you see Shepard acting like a Husk? Is she filled with Reaper technology? 

No. 

2.*Sigh.....
  
With that, going bact to stage one....
It proves that Shepardi and Anderson is in the prosess of indoctrination...That'sthe only way TIM can control them.

Indoctrination is control over the mind, it's a process of persuasion. Clearly, Shepard and Anderson are of their right minds. The Illusive Man is exterting physcial control using technology he created. They are not indoctrinated. 

3. Where was Garus in eden prime and Arrival? Is he guarrenteed to be on every mission? Also, indoctrination is subtle.

Eden Prime has no contact with Reaper technology. Shepard doesn't do Arrival. Garrus is taken on every possible mission. 

Why isn't he feeling the effects? 

I know, it's because Shepard isn't being indoctrinated. 

1. The fact that you jump to this conclution make clear you don't understand.
My point is reaper agent put out indoctrination waves as well via reaper tech in them or levelof indocrtination. This means hus, collectors and reaper agents put out indoctrination waves.

2.All I have to do is point to Benezia and we are back to square one agein....TIM using indoctrination on Sheardand Anderson to control them.

3.On eden prime you have dragfons teeth, husk,and Sonvergin.... There plenty of reaper tech on edenprime.
And AS I said before, indoctriantion is subtle...We would not know.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Ah yes, "indoctrination theory". We've dismissed that myth. The main problem with singling out Shepard and not the rest of the crew is this: Ash was on Eden Prime, as was Kaiden. And the rest of the crew like Garrus for example? You say he's not guaranteed to be on every mission? Well, some people took Garrus on every mission, so he's got to be considered for every mission. And let's not forget the Citadel.

And Arrival being done by Shepard isn't "canon." It's optional DLC. If you didn't do the DLC, like I didn't with my "canon" play, the whole trial thing was about Shepard's time with Cerberus, which was why they didn't have the trial in the game. LOTSB was another one. If Shepard didn't do it Liara hired someone else to do that with her.

And just because one is a renegade, and known as the "butcher of Torfan" by the Batarians doesn't mean one is a psychopath. On the Alliance side of that battle Shepard is a hero. It doesn't mean one doesn't have a soft side to them. It doesn't mean a person is totally uncaring. She shows the enemy no quarter.

Artistic laziness. One child model in the entire series. There should have been more children being evacuated from Vancouver on the shuttles. Actually that would have had MORE impact. But Bioware only had one child in the entire series. People talked about children that you never saw. Dragon Age had more children in one village than the entire Mass Effect series. So if Shepard had seen three to five kids on that shuttle in addition to duct kid, yeah, that would have had more impact. Artistic laziness.

Then Bioware doesn't know when to make something a playable scene and when to make something a cutscene. The dreams should have been cutscenes since you couldn't take anything other than one action in them. Hear that? Make them cutscenes. Remind me to post this up in one of the above forums so they can think about patching that.

The Starchild? Again artistic laziness using the same model -- hey they cost money to make, we'd better reuse it, but make it clear and have light shining out so no one notices the hoodie. (lol @ walters) 98% of the people who played the game didn't notice the hoodie on the kid on their first playthrough. They weren't payting that much attention. They were more pissed at seeing a brand new character in the last 10 minutes and being forced to make a decision based only on 14 lines of dialogue with virtually no explanation of what the decisions did. And then it just ended. Abruptly.

And if you don't think Shepard has PTSD by this time, you're kidding yourself. Shepard is running on fumes.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 24 mai 2012 - 06:13 .

[Joolazoo]

jules_vern18 wrote...

snip

Also, um, I don't think you have to "know" a person to care about seeing them die.  That's borderline sociopathy.  Even so, it's not like Shepard has never seen the kid before.  He watches him play during the opening sequence (and how many other times out that window?), sees him being hunted by husks during the escape from earth, tries to help him get away, and watches him get vaporized as he nearly escaped the planet.  That triggers an empathetic (and perfectly normal and believable) response.

....how is it perfectly normal and believable when we hae been seeing things like this for the past 2 games with NO EMOITIONAL RESPONSE. You guys are acting as if Shepard is one of us sitting at our work desks. He is not. He is a borderline superhero with amazing amounts of mental willpower.

Also, about the knowing part...the whole point of the child is to make the player feel something...but you have to be pretty dense or easily moved to tears to care about a pixilated child who doesn't have a second of character growth or development. Even if it was realistic for shepard to care, we have no reason to, which is in essence the only reason he was included in the game.

Modifié par Joolazoo, 24 mai 2012 - 06:26 .

[Joolazoo]

robarcool wrote...

The Invisible Commando wrote...

Cypher_CS wrote...

Have you actually been in a real combat situation? Ever?

Yes, it's the children that haunt you more than most.

And he actually talked to that Kid, right before.
He wanted to help him, but he couldn't (cause the kid ran away). He failed to help a helpless.
Grown ups are not considered helpless. Children are.

You know what?
Scratch that first question.
Are you a father?

Makes good for Paragon Shepards, but not so much for murderous Renegades.

Sigh. Renegade not equals evil. It means practical and even practical people have emotions.

Renegade doesn't mean practical...can you really play an hour of Mass Effect 3 with the renegade decisions and say even most of them are practical and not just bein an A-hole or over the top badassness. Not to mention most dialogue choices have little do with whether something is practical or not...since they are mostly conversations that have no direct effect on anything other than your relationship or opinion on this or that.

Modifié par Joolazoo, 24 mai 2012 - 06:35 .

[dreman9999]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Ah yes, "indoctrination theory". We've dismissed that myth. The main problem with singling out Shepard and not the rest of the crew is this: Ash was on Eden Prime, as was Kaiden. And the rest of the crew like Garrus for example? You say he's not guaranteed to be on every mission? Well, some people took Garrus on every mission, so he's got to be considered for every mission. And let's not forget the Citadel.

And Arrival being done by Shepard isn't "canon." It's optional DLC. If you didn't do the DLC, like I didn't with my "canon" play, the whole trial thing was about Shepard's time with Cerberus, which was why they didn't have the trial in the game. LOTSB was another one. If Shepard didn't do it Liara hired someone else to do that with her.

And just because one is a renegade, and known as the "butcher of Torfan" by the Batarians doesn't mean one is a psychopath. On the Alliance side of that battle Shepard is a hero. It doesn't mean one doesn't have a soft side to them. It doesn't mean a person is totally uncaring. She shows the enemy no quarter.

Artistic laziness. One child model in the entire series. There should have been more children being evacuated from Vancouver on the shuttles. Actually that would have had MORE impact. But Bioware only had one child in the entire series. People talked about children that you never saw. Dragon Age had more children in one village than the entire Mass Effect series. So if Shepard had seen three to five kids on that shuttle in addition to duct kid, yeah, that would have had more impact. Artistic laziness.

Then Bioware doesn't know when to make something a playable scene and when to make something a cutscene. The dreams should have been cutscenes since you couldn't take anything other than one action in them. Hear that? Make them cutscenes. Remind me to post this up in one of the above forums so they can think about patching that.

The Starchild? Again artistic laziness using the same model -- hey they cost money to make, we'd better reuse it, but make it clear and have light shining out so no one notices the hoodie. (lol @ walters) 98% of the people who played the game didn't notice the hoodie on the kid on their first playthrough. They weren't payting that much attention. They were more pissed at seeing a brand new character in the last 10 minutes and being forced to make a decision based only on 14 lines of dialogue with virtually no explanation of what the decisions did. And then it just ended. Abruptly.

And if you don't think Shepard has PTSD by this time, you're kidding yourself. Shepard is running on fumes.

1. The other chatacter don't have any were near the ammount of time Shepard is near reaper tech. Ask or Kedien are no with the crew with ME2. So they are less supspectable and Garrus is no guarrenteeed to be on every mission. Shepardion the other hand is on every mission in the game. So he is the most open to it.

Arrival is it self is a concept that it writen ito the plot regardless if done or not. The result of doing it still happen just and isapplied to the plot justlike Liara is till the shadow broker even though you did not help her. If the artifact on arrival did not start it...The 3 years of on and offcontact did.

And last, can you tell be hw TIM is controling Shepard in the end? Is that not indoctrination?

[gmboy902]

It did feel a little forced. I just think the kid stuck out because maybe Shepard felt he could have saved him, and had to watch this (seemingly) innocent child die. Kind of different than the soldier who goes into battle knowing the risks.

That being said, forcing my Shepard to care about a little punk is going a bit too far. I like to test out all of the execution moves in Skyrim on small children.

[The Night Mammoth]

dreman9999 wrote...
1. The fact that you jump to this conclution make clear you don't understand.

Through no fault of my own, since I'm supposed to know exactly what you mean all the time despite just being linked a random web-page without explanation to how it is relevant. 

My point is reaper agent put out indoctrination waves as well via reaper tech in them or levelof indocrtination. This means hus, collectors and reaper agents put out indoctrination waves.

Husks are controlled by the nanites injected into them. Collectors are programmed to obey by their components. Other agents don't need Reaper technology implanted into them. 

How any of this is relevant to the point is unknown, since you seem adverse to explaining important parts of the argument like this. 

2.All I have to do is point to Benezia and we are back to square one agein....TIM using indoctrination on Sheardand Anderson to control them.

So you're pointing at Benezia as an example, despite ignoring  that the Matriarch was a thrall, mentally. She was indoctrinated, her movements weren't being controlled. 

Shepard and Anderson were of their right minds when the Illusive Man exterted physicaly control, therefore they aren't indoctrinated. Their enemy used technology of his own making to manipulate them. 

3.On eden prime you have dragfons teeth, husk,and Sonvergin.... There plenty of reaper tech on edenprime.

Husks and Dragon's Teeth don't mentally indoctrinate people. Sovereign was too far away. 

So no, there's not plenty of opportunity on Eden Prime to start the process, else the Virmire Survivor would feel it too. 

And AS I said before, indoctriantion is subtle...We would not know.

Since we are Shepard, yes, we would. 

[dreman9999]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
1. The fact that you jump to this conclution make clear you don't understand.

Through no fault of my own, since I'm supposed to know exactly what you mean all the time despite just being linked a random web-page without explanation to how it is relevant. 

My point is reaper agent put out indoctrination waves as well via reaper tech in them or levelof indocrtination. This means hus, collectors and reaper agents put out indoctrination waves.

Husks are controlled by the nanites injected into them. Collectors are programmed to obey by their components. Other agents don't need Reaper technology implanted into them. 

How any of this is relevant to the point is unknown, since you seem adverse to explaining important parts of the argument like this. 

2.All I have to do is point to Benezia and we are back to square one agein....TIM using indoctrination on Sheardand Anderson to control them.

So you're pointing at Benezia as an example, despite ignoring  that the Matriarch was a thrall, mentally. She was indoctrinated, her movements weren't being controlled. 

Shepard and Anderson were of their right minds when the Illusive Man exterted physicaly control, therefore they aren't indoctrinated. Their enemy used technology of his own making to manipulate them. 

3.On eden prime you have dragfons teeth, husk,and Sonvergin.... There plenty of reaper tech on edenprime.

Husks and Dragon's Teeth don't mentally indoctrinate people. Sovereign was too far away. 

So no, there's not plenty of opportunity on Eden Prime to start the process, else the Virmire Survivor would feel it too. 

And AS I said before, indoctriantion is subtle...We would not know.

Since we are Shepard, yes, we would. 

1. They all generate indoctrination waves.
2.You missed the part she resisted it. The point being She sill had he own mind...Even when she was totally controled. Even TIM an Saren were not mindless.  Indoctriantion comes in stages.

3. Husk send out indoctinaion waves...
Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals,  
http://masseffect.wi...#Indoctrination 

And the only way you can tell me that Sovergin can't effectme on Eden prime is if you can how the limit of range of the indoctrination signal.
4.No he would not. Shepard has no power or ability to no if some one is indoctrinated. If He did, he would know DR. Kenson was indoctrinated way before getting on the project on arrival.