257 réponses à ce sujet

[Omega Torsk]

/sigh, I have to agree. They should've worked Kaidan/Ashley into it (whichever one died). Jenkins, even. Probably even Shepard's career history (each one carries its own scars). Pressly could've been there, too. You can at least hear Mordin, Thane, and Legion.

But every sequence with the kid felt very forced and unsettling. Before seeing the Catalyst, I referred to him as the "Sage-Kid," because he acts like some sort of otherworldy presence that haunts my Shepard. Even back when he was alive. What 6-7 year old kid says "you can't help me" when an adult is trying to help them? There was something sinister about that kid; just look at his concept art!

It's Harbinger, guys. I have a feeling...

[matthewmi]

Well it's rather difficult to control ones dreams, what do you want a renegade interrupt to shake your fist at the child saying "get out of my dreams I don't care about you"? Everyone has dreams they think are stupid, scary, or mostly crazy nonsense choosing what one wants to dream about would be cool but doesn't work that way.....yet maybe one day.

[wright1978]

The Angry One wrote...

Just read this, everyone. In the context of Vent Boy.

www.cinemablend.com/games/Shepard-Deeper-Character-Mass-Effect-3-38646.html

Mac Walters decided to make Shepard "deep". He decided to do this, it seems, by removing all player agency and forcing emotions in spite of background, alignment choices and common sense.

A pity express what you Shep is going through was in fact here's what we have decided Shep is feelingdespite  the fact it murders player agency and characterisation. Really hoping this isn't the future direction their games will take.

[fr33stylez]

dreman9999 wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Ah yes, "indoctrination theory". We've dismissed that myth. The main problem with singling out Shepard and not the rest of the crew is this: Ash was on Eden Prime, as was Kaiden. And the rest of the crew like Garrus for example? You say he's not guaranteed to be on every mission? Well, some people took Garrus on every mission, so he's got to be considered for every mission. And let's not forget the Citadel.

And Arrival being done by Shepard isn't "canon." It's optional DLC. If you didn't do the DLC, like I didn't with my "canon" play, the whole trial thing was about Shepard's time with Cerberus, which was why they didn't have the trial in the game. LOTSB was another one. If Shepard didn't do it Liara hired someone else to do that with her.

And just because one is a renegade, and known as the "butcher of Torfan" by the Batarians doesn't mean one is a psychopath. On the Alliance side of that battle Shepard is a hero. It doesn't mean one doesn't have a soft side to them. It doesn't mean a person is totally uncaring. She shows the enemy no quarter.

Artistic laziness. One child model in the entire series. There should have been more children being evacuated from Vancouver on the shuttles. Actually that would have had MORE impact. But Bioware only had one child in the entire series. People talked about children that you never saw. Dragon Age had more children in one village than the entire Mass Effect series. So if Shepard had seen three to five kids on that shuttle in addition to duct kid, yeah, that would have had more impact. Artistic laziness.

Then Bioware doesn't know when to make something a playable scene and when to make something a cutscene. The dreams should have been cutscenes since you couldn't take anything other than one action in them. Hear that? Make them cutscenes. Remind me to post this up in one of the above forums so they can think about patching that.

The Starchild? Again artistic laziness using the same model -- hey they cost money to make, we'd better reuse it, but make it clear and have light shining out so no one notices the hoodie. (lol @ walters) 98% of the people who played the game didn't notice the hoodie on the kid on their first playthrough. They weren't payting that much attention. They were more pissed at seeing a brand new character in the last 10 minutes and being forced to make a decision based only on 14 lines of dialogue with virtually no explanation of what the decisions did. And then it just ended. Abruptly.

And if you don't think Shepard has PTSD by this time, you're kidding yourself. Shepard is running on fumes.

1. The other chatacter don't have any were near the ammount of time Shepard is near reaper tech. Ask or Kedien are no with the crew with ME2. So they are less supspectable and Garrus is no guarrenteeed to be on every mission. Shepardion the other hand is on every mission in the game. So he is the most open to it.

Arrival is it self is a concept that it writen ito the plot regardless if done or not. The result of doing it still happen just and isapplied to the plot justlike Liara is till the shadow broker even though you did not help her. If the artifact on arrival did not start it...The 3 years of on and offcontact did.

And last, can you tell be hw TIM is controling Shepard in the end? Is that not indoctrination?

I'm not going too get into proving/disproving IT, but I think IT misses the bigger picture. The sad part is even though IT makes a lot more sense than the current ending(s), it would've still been a horrible idea if IT was actually planned by BW.

The weight of most actions over the course of the trilogy were neutered by ME3, but you think BW made indoctrination, which relies hevily on previous games, the ENTIRE basis of the ending? Also:

- Why is BW scrambling to NOW make the Extended Cut if IT was the plan all along?
- Why would they release ME3 incomplete and without a conclusion to the Reaper threat?
- If IT was their intention, what happens in the EC for players that chose Control and Synthesis? A 5 second cinematic that says "GAME OVER, YOU GAVE IN TO THE REAPERS"?

These are big picture questions that don't jive well with IT.

Modifié par fr33stylez, 24 mai 2012 - 07:32 .

[Jadebaby]

XJ347 wrote...

It was forced and felt out of place.

IN-DOC-TRIN-A-TION

lol i joke....

[jsadalia]

This thread has made me wish the phrase "player agency" a swift death.

[The Night Mammoth]

dreman9999 wrote...
1. They all generate indoctrination waves.

They do not. Leaders on nations on planets are being persuaded to enter Reaper ships to be indoctrinated. Husks would do it, but they can't. Dragon's Teeth turn people into Husks, they do not indoctrinate.

2.You missed the part she resisted it. The point being She sill had he own mind...Even when she was totally controled. Even TIM an Saren were not mindless.  Indoctriantion comes in stages.

Shepard is of her own mind. The control was physical. She is not indoctrinated.

And the only way you can tell me that Sovergin can't effectme on Eden prime is if you can how the limit of range of the indoctrination signal.

I'm guessing it doesn't go all over the planet, and I'm guessing it didn't start taking hold in the 30 minutes you're within a few mils of Sovereign. 

4.No he would not. Shepard has no power or ability to no if some one is indoctrinated. If He did, he would know DR. Kenson was indoctrinated way before getting on the project on arrival.

I think Shepard would notice if close friends started acting strangely. I'm sure Shepard's close friends would bring the issue up given the stakes. 

[MrStoob]

The Angry One wrote...

MrStoob wrote...

Doctor "I'm sorry Commander Shepard, but your mother had died"
Shepard "Who gives a ****, it's not as bad as that time on Virmire..."

No.

Terrible analogy. Shepard's mother is someone she knows and loves (assuming you're talking about Spacer of course).

THIS KID IS NOBODY. I don't care if he's 7 years old. Millions of 7 year olds are dying on Earth in that exact moment.
My Shepard would simply not devote any thought to him. He's there, then he goes, saying nothing of note, being no one of note.

Empathy.

[jsadalia]

Shepard is a scripted character. You get to choose from among the options for his or her personality and reactions that the writers offer you. Every one of the characters shaped by those options would be troubled by the death of a child.

Whatever kind of sociopath your Shepard might be in your own head, in-game the kid as part of Shep's dreams fits well enough.

[Icinix]

wright1978 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Just read this, everyone. In the context of Vent Boy.

www.cinemablend.com/games/Shepard-Deeper-Character-Mass-Effect-3-38646.html

Mac Walters decided to make Shepard "deep". He decided to do this, it seems, by removing all player agency and forcing emotions in spite of background, alignment choices and common sense.

A pity express what you Shep is going through was in fact here's what we have decided Shep is feelingdespite  the fact it murders player agency and characterisation. Really hoping this isn't the future direction their games will take.

From that link;

"One of the things we wanted to do in Mass Effect 3[/i] was deepen Shepard as a character, so you really get to express what your Shepard is feeling and going through, throughout the war,” said Walters in the latest episode of BioWare Pulse. 

Which we don't get to do. It feels more like BioWare is expressing what they want Shepard throughout - ME3 is the first Mass Effect game and the first BioWare game in recent memory that I don't feel like the lead character is my character and I'm playing someones elses Shepard from ME1 and ME2.

Modifié par Icinix, 24 mai 2012 - 10:05 .

[The Spamming Troll]

why is the boy from the beginning also star child?

i eel like this has been discussed but the whole thing just melts my brain thinking about it.

[NS Wizdum]

MrStoob wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

MrStoob wrote...

Doctor "I'm sorry Commander Shepard, but your mother had died"
Shepard "Who gives a ****, it's not as bad as that time on Virmire..."

No.

Terrible analogy. Shepard's mother is someone she knows and loves (assuming you're talking about Spacer of course).

THIS KID IS NOBODY. I don't care if he's 7 years old. Millions of 7 year olds are dying on Earth in that exact moment.
My Shepard would simply not devote any thought to him. He's there, then he goes, saying nothing of note, being no one of note.

Empathy.

He's not in my monkeysphere, why should I care beyond "well, thats unfortunate".

[nitefyre410]

jsadalia wrote...

Shepard is a scripted character. You get to choose from among the options for his or her personality and reactions that the writers offer you. Every one of the characters shaped by those options would be troubled by the death of a child.

Whatever kind of sociopath your Shepard might be in your own head, in-game the kid as part of Shep's dreams fits well enough.

 

^ This... I agree completely

Now wheather  that was pulled off  well... eh thats another story.

[almondroy]

I believe that the introduction of the vent kid was deliberately heavy-handed to attempt to drive home the emotional point of loss and despair for those just joining the series at ME3 (remember, this was "the game that was the best entry point to the series", as paraphrased by one of the team members), a sizable amount are used to being armchair bad-asses from games like COD where war is sanitized down to the level of paintball with no real consequences to their actions in game.

I'd also suggest anyone in disbelief that their ultimate Renegade character is incapable of PTSD really needs to do some research on the subject, particularly books and discussions by actual veterans. (suggested video: www.wqed.org/tv/watch/series/specials/2011-05-26/)

Modifié par almondroy, 24 mai 2012 - 11:33 .

[George Costanza]

In terms of writing etc., putting a child in peril, or in this case killing one, is one of the cheapest methods of attempting to force an emotional reaction out of your audience. Mass Effect 3 goes the whole hog and introduces a kid at the eleventh hour, who exists only to be killed and shoe horn a new emotional crux into the story. It's bargain basement writing.

I can understand why people are saying that Shepard would be affected by it. But we have to remember that Shepard is a soldier who is used to war. Yes, nothing will ever make watching children die easy. But the Reapers are decimating Earth. They're killing by the million. They're wiping out life on so many different worlds. And this one kid who Shepard has seen for four seconds is going to be what gets him? Again, it's an absolutely shameless attempt to force an emotional reaction out of the player, and whoever came up with it should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.

I find it mind boggling they don't go the Virmire route, and use the character Shepard sacrificed for that role. It would have been more fitting for both the player and Shepard, as in that scenario, it would have been YOU that doomed that character. The kid dies in a cutscene. It's forced. You are the one who decides to sacrifice Ashley or Kaiden. It would have been much more fitting, and it wouldn't have made me roll my eyes in utter contempt like the kid did.

[Ariq]

matthewmi wrote...

Well it's rather difficult to control ones dreams, what do you want a renegade interrupt to shake your fist at the child saying "get out of my dreams I don't care about you"? Everyone has dreams they think are stupid, scary, or mostly crazy nonsense choosing what one wants to dream about would be cool but doesn't work that way.....yet maybe one day.

Bah. The steel-gazed, hardened souls of the BSN *choose* their dreams. Every night before bed they get five options, with two conveniently colour coded for Paragon and Renegade. You just lack the requisite willpower.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

why is the boy from the beginning also star child?

i eel like this has been discussed but the whole thing just melts my brain thinking about it.

You're thinking too hard. Occam's razor....

I've said this: artistic laziness. You have no idea how lazy artists can be. Walters decided to use a child for the Catalyst. He thought it was clever. They had one. Exactly ONE child model for the entire series.

That's why the model used for the boy is the same as the catalyst, but let's make him transparent and shine lights out of him and hope no one notices the hoodie.

Yes. It's that simple.

No. This is not an image that the AI pulled from Shepard's brain. The AI can't read Shepard's mind. If it could it might have just offered one choice based on your actions throughout the game: Quarian haters get Control. Peacemakers get Synthesis. Renegade interupts (blasting the reaper) and Geth killers get Destroy.

[saracen16]

Ozzyfan223 wrote...

is haunted by a death of one, single child? I know he's supposed to "represent" all those he couldn't save on earth, but still, he's haunted by only one death, a child's death.

Now Shepard has fought many battles, and I bet he's lost many in such battles, not even including the one's we've played. War has gruesome deaths, and Shepard has probably seen a lot of his close friends die in front of him. Hell, look at the collector base deaths, like Kelly and such.

But seeing a ship blow up with this kid inside is haunting him? I would understand earth making him uneasy, but he doesn't dream of all those who died on earth, only the kid. The dreams would've been much more understandable if he dreamt he was on earth and saw people dying around him, or if Anderson was the one who died.

It pisses me off.

The death is obviously symbolic. A child represents life and hope for the future. To see it extinguished by an unstoppable entity that seeks to doom every space-faring organic to extinction is obviously traumatizing to say the least. Shepard tried to save him, but couldn't. A doctor can see many people die in front of him, but it takes only one bad experience he was involved in to scar him for life.

[cutegigi]

somewhere between ME2 and ME3, shepard was indoctrinated. By my little pony. friendship is magic.

[Loup Blanc]

Ozzyfan223 wrote...

is haunted by a death of one, single child? I know he's supposed to "represent" all those he couldn't save on earth, but still, he's haunted by only one death, a child's death.

Now Shepard has fought many battles, and I bet he's lost many in such battles, not even including the one's we've played. War has gruesome deaths, and Shepard has probably seen a lot of his close friends die in front of him. Hell, look at the collector base deaths, like Kelly and such.

But seeing a ship blow up with this kid inside is haunting him? I would understand earth making him uneasy, but he doesn't dream of all those who died on earth, only the kid. The dreams would've been much more understandable if he dreamt he was on earth and saw people dying around him, or if Anderson was the one who died.

It pisses me off.

I totally hear you OP. You wrote my mind.

My Commander Shepard is a Schwarzenegger figure. He is not traumatized by the death of one child. He is a completely Paragade badass. What Bioware did was hijacking a character I had modeled and... well yeah... they sort of raped the character I created.

It was totally out of place.

Edit: anyone seen the last Rambo movie? In this one, Rambo is a completely desensitized killing machine. He has seen so much, heck, he has seen it all. He's not haunted by the women being raped nearby by the soldiers, he is not haunted by one kid being brought to the bad guy's cabin to be molested... he just focuses on the mission and does what he has to do. THIS was my Shepard.

And please, don't bring the Are You a Father argument. I am a father as a matter of fact, but this is no real life, this is a fantasy we are living through Shepard. This has nothing to do with a realistic situation of PTSD.

Modifié par JL81, 25 mai 2012 - 01:49 .

[Evil Minion]

Anyone who thinks combat veterans wouldn't "feel anything" about the death of a "single child" is an idiot.

[N7Gold]

Ozzyfan223 wrote...

is haunted by a death of one, single child? I know he's supposed to "represent" all those he couldn't save on earth, but still, he's haunted by only one death, a child's death.

Now Shepard has fought many battles, and I bet he's lost many in such battles, not even including the one's we've played. War has gruesome deaths, and Shepard has probably seen a lot of his close friends die in front of him. Hell, look at the collector base deaths, like Kelly and such.

But seeing a ship blow up with this kid inside is haunting him? I would understand earth making him uneasy, but he doesn't dream of all those who died on earth, only the kid. The dreams would've been much more understandable if he dreamt he was on earth and saw people dying around him, or if Anderson was the one who died.

It pisses me off.

It's not just the kid, it's what the kid represents. Shepard has seen war before, but not the kind of war that is galaxy spread where trillions of innocent lives are at risk and he knows that he can't save all of them. That's what traumatizes Shepard.

[Shaoken]

It haunts Shepard because he/she had a chance to save the kid in the apartment, but couldn't. Hence why the kid shows up in Shepard's nightmares. By being the only person during his/her escape from Earth that they had a reasonable chance at actually saving, the kid sticks around in Shepard's subconcious.

[Paranoidal nemesis]

The child thing reminds me of the girl in the red dress from "Schindler's List", but not nearly as successful artistically as the girl in the red dress. It lacks subtlety, and feels more like an imitation of the latter.