45 réponses à ce sujet

[MACGRUBER7692]

Maybe you find a group of darkspawn. You kill them all except one. He's on the ground injured. Alister is about to excecute him when the darkspawn asks you to spare him ala zevran. I know darkspawn are supposed to be mindless abominations but it wouldnt it be cool to find one that's a little different.

[Taleroth]

Possible, but not in this game.

[Damar Stiehl]

Right.

Let's spare a barely intelligent, bloodthirsty, homicidal AND contagious abomination that wants to kill you and eat your guts.

No.

[MACGRUBER7692]

Again I said it would have to be a dark spawn that was different had a mind. It's a game with majic and dragons for christ sake anything is possible.

[Gecon]

Oh ?



Like its perfectly possible that the butterfly in your room is in fact as genius as Einstein ?

[J.O.G]

Why not? When other RPGs can have two-headed talking llamas, why shouldn't there be a sentient darkspawn? Lore forbids it? Well, exceptions prove the rule, don't they?

So if you plan to make a mod, go ahead, if you expect Bioware to include one, don't hold your breath...

Modifié par J.O.G, 10 décembre 2009 - 03:45 .

[Taleroth]

J.O.G wrote...

Exceptions prove the rule.

...
You just hit one of my buttons.  I really hoped nobody would misuse that phrase in this thread.  "The exception proves the rule" means that stated exceptions imply the existence of a rule for the remaining cases.  A popular example being "No Parking between 8AM-5PM."  This is a stated exception, it implies the rule that you can park at any other time.

Spoiler from books.

There are already intelligent non-mindless Darkspawn.

Modifié par Taleroth, 10 décembre 2009 - 03:50 .

[MACGRUBER7692]

I think it would help add some gray area to the darkspawn that some of them are sentinent not just mindless beasts. They were the only black and white characters in the game.

[Jonfon_ire]

MACGRUBER7692 wrote...

Again I said it would have to be a dark spawn that was different had a mind. It's a game with majic and dragons for christ sake anything is possible.

Poor Alistair is close enough to a breakdown with a sarcastic witch, caustic golem, freed condemned murderer, drunken dwarf and randy evil elven assassin (who keeps giving him the eye) in the party. If you told him you were also bringing along a Darkspawn I think he'd finally crack. The condemned murderer & sarcastic witch probably wouldn't take it too well either, let alone Wynne.

[rayvioletta]

there is at least one darkspawn retaining some degree of their pre-taint mind, but I shan't go into further detail outside of the spoilers forum

[Adria Teksuni]

That would be interesting for a future game with a different party, perhaps. Darkspawn IMHO are a form of lesser Abomination, and the conversation with a certain mage in the party can lead to some interesting conclusions about what makes Abominations so abominable.

[MACGRUBER7692]

Are you sure. Iet's say the darkspawn is scared and unarmed. Shows some human emotions. I think Wyne might want to spare it.

[Habelo]

Gecon wrote...

Oh ?

Like its perfectly possible that the butterfly in your room is in fact as genius as Einstein ?

Your tiny brain cant seperate reality from fiction?

[J.O.G]

Taleroth wrote...

J.O.G wrote...

Exceptions prove the rule.

...
You
just hit one of my buttons.  I really hoped nobody would misuse that
phrase in this thread.  "The exception proves the rule" means that
stated exceptions imply the existence of a rule for the remaining
cases.  A popular example being "No Parking between 8AM-5PM."  This is
a stated exception, it implies the rule that you can park at any other
time.

Spoiler from books.

There are already intelligent non-mindless Darkspawn.

Well, forgive me that that saying is used figuratively and more generally in my native language.

Anyway, I rather read/play a good story that bends lore than a boring one that follows lore to the letter.

Modifié par J.O.G, 10 décembre 2009 - 03:54 .

[Jonfon_ire]

MACGRUBER7692 wrote...

Are you sure. Iet's say the darkspawn is scared and unarmed. Shows some human emotions. I think Wyne might want to spare it.

But what about all the places you'd go with it? I can't imagine it going down too well in Denerim for starters. 

Maybe in Custom module / adventure / expansion it would work, and could certainly be interesting, but given that ingame almost everyone is terrified of or hates the coming Darkspawn blight one toodling along with you would seem to me to be stretching things a bit too far IMO.

[Staylost]

Good catch Taleroth.



And it would be entirely reasonable, but extremely unlikely to have a Darkspawn companion.



Source: The Calling.



My party for DA:O will be:

Me.

Morrigan.

Shale.

Archdemon.

[MACGRUBER7692]

Jonfon_ire wrote...

MACGRUBER7692 wrote...

Are you sure. Iet's say the darkspawn is scared and unarmed. Shows some human emotions. I think Wyne might want to spare it.

But what about all the places you'd go with it? I can't imagine it going down too well in Denerim for starters. 

Maybe in Custom module / adventure / expansion it would work, and could certainly be interesting, but given that ingame almost everyone is terrified of or hates the coming Darkspawn blight one toodling along with you would seem to me to be stretching things a bit too far IMO.

And then you would have to protect the darkspawn and explain yourself. It would be an interesting plot device to say the least.

[Solistus1]

Taleroth: sorry to out-English nerd you, but I think this usage is legitimate.

Fowler's (the oldest definitive critique of the phrase I'm aware of, and my dear scholarly friend Wikipedia seems to confirm as much) gives two correct meanings in addition to the discussion of colloquial misuse. The first is as you describe, when an explicit exception implies the existence of the rule it is an exception to.

The second, 'scientific' meaning is when what at first appears to be an exception that disproves a supposed rule is discovered to be a case to which that rule shouldn't apply in the first place, thus, what appeared to be evidence in conflict with the theory is understood to further support it instead due to a previously unnoticed distinction.  Rather than breaking the rule, such a case can serve to clarify our understanding of that rule's exact mechanics.

In this case, what appears to be an exception to the rule (darkspawn are mindless, this one has a mind) could be revealed to be a more complex case (e.g., we learn why darkspawn lose their minds and that process didn't happen to this darkspawn for some unusual reason); thus, it would be the exception proving the rule in the scientific sense.

I wouldn't normally get so pedantic, but your sole purpose was to correct someone incorrectly.  It's pretty common that this second meaning is the one used in pop culture references to the phrase, especially in sci fi and fantasy settings where introducing new 'rules' (new made up 'handwavium' science, rules for how magic works in various fantasy settings, etc.) and trying to figure out how they function is a big part of the plot development.  A mystery that seemed to contradict some previously established principle in fact introduces us to some new nuance or distinction within that original principle.  When I saw this suggestion, that was the plot device that jumped to mind - such an out-of-character darkspawn encounter would no doubt affect the way the character and his/her companions would view the darkspawn and their quest to destroy as many of them as possible.


As far as a darkspawn joining the party, that's not just something to throw in 'just because.'  As I allude to above, such an event would be a profound movement in the plot and would need to be treated as such - everyone in the world would probably need custom reactions to this new NPC, for starters.  Such a unique being in the DA:O universe would necessarily be more important than just some generic party member to toss in for variety - it would seem cheap and poorly implemented if, after the intense initial scene of your party reacting to this previously unknown sentient darkspawn, nobody else in the game world treated him/her/it as anything more unusual than Alistair or Leliana or any other party member walking by.

Modifié par Solistus1, 10 décembre 2009 - 04:12 .

[Taleroth]

Jonfon_ire wrote...

MACGRUBER7692 wrote...

Are you sure. Iet's say the darkspawn is scared and unarmed. Shows some human emotions. I think Wyne might want to spare it.

But what about all the places you'd go with it? I can't imagine it going down too well in Denerim for starters. 

Maybe in Custom module / adventure / expansion it would work, and could certainly be interesting, but given that ingame almost everyone is terrified of or hates the coming Darkspawn blight one toodling along with you would seem to me to be stretching things a bit too far IMO.

Give it a fancy hat.  If anyone calls you out, tell them that your companion is a visiting noble from Highever with a skin disease and he's very sensitive about it.

[Taleroth]

Solistus1 wrote...

Taleroth: sorry to out-English nerd you, but I think this usage is legitimate.

Fowler's (the oldest definitive critique of the phrase I'm aware of, and my dear scholarly friend Wikipedia seems to confirm as much) gives two correct meanings in addition to the discussion of colloquial misuse. The first is as you describe, when an explicit exception implies the existence of the rule it is an exception to. The second, 'scientific' meaning is when what at first appears to be an exception that disproves a supposed rule is discovered to be a case to which that rule shouldn't apply in the first place, thus actually providing another piece of evidence in support of the theorised rule. In this case, what appears to be an exception to the rule (darkspawn are mindless, this one has a mind) could be revealed to be a more complex case (e.g., we learn why darkspawn lose their minds and that process didn't happen to this darkspawn for some unusual reason); thus, it would be the exception proving the rule in the scientific sense.

I wouldn't normally get so pedantic, but if your sole purpose in posting is to make a didactic correction, then you'd best be accurate in your criticism.

Edit: Fowler's usage is different than mine, yes.  However, Fowler's usage is also not consisitent with the previous poster's.  So they both disagree with his use.  This special case would actually deny the rule, not simply be exempt from it.  Nor would an exemption even make the previous poster's point.  Nothing about Fowler's criticism makes "meaningless flair" a valid use.

If you're looking at Wikipedia, he's using the loose rhetorical sense.

Modifié par Taleroth, 10 décembre 2009 - 04:20 .

[Jonfon_ire]

Taleroth wrote...

Jonfon_ire wrote...

MACGRUBER7692 wrote...

Are you sure. Iet's say the darkspawn is scared and unarmed. Shows some human emotions. I think Wyne might want to spare it.

But what about all the places you'd go with it? I can't imagine it going down too well in Denerim for starters. 

Maybe in Custom module / adventure / expansion it would work, and could certainly be interesting, but given that ingame almost everyone is terrified of or hates the coming Darkspawn blight one toodling along with you would seem to me to be stretching things a bit too far IMO.

Give it a fancy hat.  If anyone calls you out, tell them that your companion is a visiting noble from Highever with a skin disease and he's very sensitive about it.

PC : "May I introduce you to Lord Bonegnawer. Ignore the slavering. He's from a very old and rather inbred noble family. And now allow me to introduce Marauding Psychotic Golem, Freed Condemned Murderer and Alistair" 
Alistair : "Please. Kill me now"

[Damar Stiehl]

I'm under the impression that the darkspawn are incapable of expressing emotion that would elicit even a remote feeling of sympathy. Even the emissaries are like Warhammer 40K's Orks: they are intelligent, they can speak, but they exist only to fight and kill, and do not feel fear even when faced with certain death. So even if you came across a wounded and unarmed darkspawn, it would still be trying to gnaw your legs off even if you offered it assistance.



Another funny thing is that most, if not all, "good" characters in DA:O believe in the Maker, and darkspawn are abominations in Maker's sight. They are abjectly evil, moreso than anything or anyone else in Thedas - not just because of what the DO, but because of what they ARE. Sparing a darkspawn would probably elicit the same reaction as asking Pat Robertson to officiate a marriage between two homosexual satanists...



And let's not forget that each individual darkspawn radiates taint and is toxic to anything that isn't darkspawn or a Grey Warden.



All this in combination makes a darkspawn companion about as appealing and sensible as Stephenie Meyer's sparky vampires.

[Staylost]

I guess the point is this doesn't warrant discussion if you have read The Calling.



It is certainly possible.

[SheffSteel]

It would be cute if you found an egg and raised it to adulthood. New origin story!