28 réponses à ce sujet

[Noldorsteel]

Hello everyone, I am new to the forums but I have been a neverwinter player since 2003.

First of all, I am one of those players that likes to build  my characters in such way that if for example I want to be to be  fast, then I try to reach DEX 25 to get blinding speed. Also I preffer to use feats and abilities from my characters rather than be equipment dependant.  With all that said,  I just wanted to disscuss about the perma-haste effect that some items have.  Those items with perma-haste are quite good don't they? for example take a  look at the "short sword of quickness" or the "boots of speed"... For a pre-epic character that kind of equipment can turn the odds on his/her favor with litle or no cost at all.

Now, I don't find those items overpowered but I do think that items with that effect  spoil the fun and the challenge of the game in some way... 150% speed, more atacks per round and +4 AC is something nice to have sure, but suddenly any difficulty  or  tension that the battle had is reduced way to much. (In my opinion) 

In other words, the perma-haste effect is not overpowered, but it is just as effective as a quickened spell and easier to obtain than more atacks per round or epic feats like blinding speed or automatic quickened spell. 

Well that was my opinion about it and yes, it is only the perma-haste effect the one I dislike (Haste from a spell or a potion I still use because those has a limited duration and aren't free). So, ¿What do you think about this kind of effect on items? ¿do you think that it is way to good too? ¿ Do you people like items with perma-haste or do you preffer to avoid them?

Im no native english speaker, so Im sorry for any mistake made (If there is any).

[HipMaestro]

It depends on the environment whether it becomes a combat inbalance problem or not.  I've played servers with mobs of duegar clerics and their minions all permahasted so if the builder doesn't furnish rsome degreee of reciprocity for the player, it can be unbalanced to the point that only huge parties can progress through an area.

High-level mages, bards & travel domain clerics with Extend Spell essentially have permahaste, if they want it, active all the time or until it is dispelled, though it can pretty easily be recast at normal speed.

For magic-users, Permahaste = AutoQuicken but both of them much better than just Quicken slots since not all spells can be quickened without the Auto version.  Autoquicken has a SERIOUS prereq of level 27  to start selecting feats and THAT is a huge commitment when attempting to achieve spellcasting prowess.  If the content is limited to pre-epic or even level 30, your magician is forced to use haste.

I suspect the reason permahaste began to become saturated into a lot of content is that it is a straighforward method to nerf magic users a bit since they will ALWAYS dominate against non-user unless those casters have been nerfed in other ways. IMO Blinding Speed is crap.  1 turn will go by in a blink and so it costs a full feat for that single turn each day.  I'll pass.

So the rule of thumb is typically, if no permahaste is available, multi with a casting class that does. Most likely everyone else on the server wil be doing the same thing.  Truth is, anything can be modified, including feats so as I stated up front... its innate balance is environment-dependent and controlled by the designer.

Modifié par HipMaestro, 26 mai 2012 - 02:07 .

[Absarka]

I've not long completed my first playthrough without using hasted items and I did notice a difference. It was more rewarding to survive battles using tactics/strategy and relying more on abilities than breezing through them with less thought. That and actually making use of potions (speed, bull's strength, cat's grace, though I tried to keep the use of them to a minimum to increase the challenge) rather than them accumulating in the inventory to be sold off to merchants.

I also liked being able to take in surroundings more as I was passing through, rather than wanting to stop in my tracks every now and then to do so and get my bearings.

That said, I probably will revert to hasted items in future for quick run-throughs or to focus more on the story again.

[Noldorsteel]

@HipMaestro: I can see why you say that it depends on the situation and environment and I agree. The truth is that play single player mode more than multiplayer (I only play multiplayer with a group of friends and in few servers) so I guess that I never faced some of the harder situations, battles and pvp online. Nowadays I have less time to play, but Im still downloading modules and content from the vault. And yes, blinding speed is bad for being so expensive , but I don't know, guess I just like to get every feat that represents my characters lol
Anyways, thank you for the explanation.

@Absarka: Yes, it is more fun an rewarding (in the case of single player mode at least) it adds some replay value to some of the modules made by the community and maybe to the original campaigns too but those are easy anyways.

Modifié par Noldorsteel, 26 mai 2012 - 04:21 .

[HipMaestro]

Noldorsteel wrote...
@HipMaestro:  The truth is that play single player mode more than multiplayer (I only play multiplayer with a group of friends and in few servers) so I guess that I never faced some of the harder situations, battles and pvp online.
 

If you have the Premium modules (and IIRC) one of them has either limited-rest or conditional-rest implemented.  It is in the content with rest restriction that you will begin to notice the bane of the short duration spells or effects, either by spellbook or feat.  In those cases, potions and scrolls are actually better because if you can afford to buy them, you can extend your hasted condition many times per day EXCEPT it takes a full round and an AoO during combat each time your toon chugs down a potion or uses a spell on an item.

IMO, the limited-rest scenarios are more realistic in that they impart a consequence to impromtu resting... like in a hallway, on the street, around the corner, in a random house, in the forest or field... you get the idea.  BioWare's campaigns were intentionally lavish when it came to seeding loot and resting opportunities, not to mention the teleportation gizmos to pop out and back in completely healed and rebuffed, sometimes for a fee, whenever the spirit moves you.  Permahaste is just another aspect to consider when you are looking for balanced content.

[Shadooow]

Ive played both no-perma-haste PWs and perma-haste-everywhere PWs and this is what i found out:

no-perma-haste:
PW restricted to lvl 30. This restriction made autoquick useless for everyone except druid (who gain it so late that it has sense only if there is reasonable max lvl content.
No perma haste made total killers from casters, as monsters were balanced for character without haste. This allowed many spellsword builds because resting was limited and monsters had very high saves.
Every cleric in the game took trickery and travel for haste. And majority characters created were those with haste spell. Nobody wants to be slow when everyone else is fast.

perma-haste WP with max lvl 40:
-no cleric took travel, even for the price that they will have to play till 40 without haste, it was worth it for players
-nobody took autoquicken spell feats
-essentially all characters were more balanced

Personally looking for some middle. Perma haste allowed but rare. Also haste in NWN is a bit different from haste in DnD core rules. By the rules the haste should add only 2AC and not ability to cast 2 spells per round.

BTW: The autoquicken spell have still uses even in perma-haste server. Why: first, player need to take only two more feats - as anyone with autoquicken doesnt provoke AoO so he doesnt need to take CC and ICC. Thats only two epic feats to be taken. Also autoquicken make caster character immune to being slow, in such case character will be still able to cast two spells per round.

[MrZork]

I'm just piping up to echo HipMaestro's comment about Blinding Speed. It really is severely underpowered for an epic feat. I usually play arcane casters, so it's not even a consideration there. But, it's not really even an attractive feat for non-casting dexers. I suppose in an extremely low magic environment - and, by that I mean even potions and scrolls are very rare at epic levels - it might be valuable.

Given the greater utility of most other epic feats, I am surprised that this isn't one of the most commonly modified feats on PWs. Increasing the duration or uses per day or both would at least make the feat a factor for characters in the PWs where permahaste isn't an option or is very rare.

[MagicalMaster]

As people have said, there's two scenarios on the builder's side: hasted characters and non-hasted characters. Haste provides such a powerful buff that you cannot build for both.

For example, if you compare a melee fighter against an identical enemy, they both deal the same damage to each other and receive the same damage. If you give one haste, suddenly he deals in the neighborhood of 45%ish more damage per round and takes 35%ish less damage per round. Instead of it being a 50-50 shot of which one will win, the one with haste will win with about 55% HP remaining.

If you build for hasted characters because arcane casters and some clerics can haste themselves but do not have effective permahaste, people who cannot haste themselves will be screwed while the people with haste experience the difficulty as intended. This often leads to the people who can cast Haste being Haste buffbots for people who cannot. In other words, everyone winds up hasted anyway in group content.

If you build for non-hasted characters, people with haste available shred the content as it is significantly easier.

So unless the goal of the world is to have casters being required to cast Haste on everyone, you might as well give everyone permahaste or just remove Haste entirely from the server.

[Rolo Kipp]

<grinning...>

I agree with everything except that you can not build for both ;-)

It is a question of checks and balances. You give a check to haste to balance it. An easy one is to require rest constantly and annoyingly (that dratted speeded up metabolism thing). Sure the permahasted dude will win... until he collapses at the point of the coupe de grace from heatstroke and exhaustion. Oops.

Doing something along these lines makes haste another resource to balance. Wearing boots of speed so you vibrate at dinner and chatter unceasingly with every NPC like the anorexic speed-demon you are might also have a serious consequence with NPC relationships. In fact, I'm sure a blurringly fast wickedly armed rogue would attract a *lot* of official and disapproving attention.

I.e. it is not (or shouldn't be) just about the stats and the formulas. A related issue is uberweapons. In fact I am having Cestus create exactly the kind of weapon I tend to avoid - Red Mercy. RM is the sword of a deva and is amazingly powerful. How do you handle *that* unbalance in game? For RM, it's simple. She radiates an effect like dragon fear. It affects NPCs. Draw Red Mercy in a crowded market place and every commoner will flee for their lives. Every watchman (of average intelligence) will draw and charge. And the smart people will run for help. *Serious* help.

Back to the OP: Keep permahaste. It is a part of the whole mythos and has its place. If you want to balance it, there are other options besides the most obvious. In particular, think of permahaste (and potion junkies in general) as attaching a stigma to an otherwise sterling reputation. Would a paladin really use such unfair and unearned means against honorable foes? If so, seems to me there's a stain there. Let NPCs see it.

Ok. Done with meta-game rant number 51 :-P

<...like a fox. a crazy fox>

[ShadowM]

Hmmm interesting stuff, how about slow on the other end. Maybe some counters, like creatures that when hit you temporarily take away haste Item properties, durability systems and rarity all play a part. Maybe a onequip check to start a counter that after a certain time the wearer becomes slowed from exhaustion for a time. Just some balance thoughts.

[Noldorsteel]

True, classes like rogue, fighter, ranger, paladin, barabarian ( small bonus speed) are the ones that need the perma-haste equipment the most since they can't cast it themselves; while monks recive greater benefits from their bonus to speed a bit late.

Well if I ever build a pw or multiplayer module, then I would balance it with perma-haste items. However  those items would be more difficult to obtain than others. So no stores with perma-haste items, but maybe the loot from a midd- high level pre epic boss lvl 10-15 could have something with that effect.

Maybe the aspect that I dislike from perma-haste is that some pws/ mods etc are way to liberal with stores and magic items in general. I mean... There should be a fair amount of magic items for sale with the occasional powerfull item too. But sometimes it just looks and feels wrong to have a store saturated with magic armors and weapons. For me It just seems pointless to go to the dungeon if I can buy  good or better stuff at the store. (This is in the case of pre epic characters, if they are epic then I have no problem with such stores). 

Yeah I  supose that I preffer those stores with generic stuff like chainmail +1, ring of protection+2 or lonsword+5 more than those filed with every "named" item from the toolset. 

Modifié par Noldorsteel, 28 mai 2012 - 02:35 .

[SHOVA]

Its all about play style, and any attempt to balance haste will only lead to frustration, and compromise. I for one, do not put permanent haste items into my builds. Only allowing a extremely rare haste item to have limited uses before it runs out. Haste is limited to casters only, and I have limited the duration to be in line with Expeditious Retreat. But, that is my play/build style, and I realize that most of the community does not agree.

The thing that most people forget is NWN is based off of D&D, and that D&D was a game with a group of players in mind, not a solo fest. Because of that, no mater how many hits you make with a nerf bat, or how many additions you make to the "lessor" class attributes, you will never ever achieve that often looked for Balance. It just won't happen. A rogue is a rogue, not a fighter. A Wizard is a Wizard, not a monk. If your dead set on solo play balance, your best bet is to edit the 2das and make every class the same, hit points, abilities, skills and feats. Luckily you can do just that, unfortunately, when you do make those changes, its not D&D anymore, and you will loose your target audience.

[MagicalMaster]

SHOVA, it is precisely being a group game that makes it difficult to balance Haste. If it was a solo game, you could increase the power of classes without Haste. But those classes can (and will) get buffed with Haste in a group.

Haste in particular is a sore point because of it's power (like +45% damage dealt and -35% damage taken for physical attackers, double spellcasting speed for casters). The magnitude of the gap between having Haste and not having Haste is the issue, not the buff itself (as in you can easily balance for Haste OR no Haste, just not both without changing something about Haste).

[SHOVA]

Magical Master, The classes are not Balanced. The classes were never intended to be Balanced. They were intended to compliment each other in the group, haste or no haste, It doesn't mater what you change haste too, or if you leave it as Bio made it, you will never achieve Balance among the classes with standard gear, or uber munchkin gear, it is impossible, and frankly is not what the game is about.

Haste is only a sore point for those frustrated by the lack of "fairness" between the classes. it shows up more with haste because a extra attack for fighter types, is seen as unbalanced with an extra spell cast from a caster type. Since casters cast, rather than try and hit something, it is fair. Both types of characters get a extra action. In pre-NWN we called it a (turn). trying to hit something with a sword is an action, just like casting a spell is. (Before any old schoolers go off the deep end, I realize that spell casting took longer than sword swinging, but since turn based combat has been changed for the Comp play, or rather how Bio implemented turn based combat my definition works) When said haste item is on everyone, the implementation is seen as fair. If no one has it, then again there isn't the problem. If a caster casts it, then all hell breaks loose. because accepted "Balance" is gone temporarily.
From your response, we are talking about multi-play, I take it everyone in the party is the same level? same class? same skills/feats? I find that rather unlikely. More likely the PCs are all with in 5 levels of each other (I'll assume your game is not a uber one as you have brought up balance) Depending on the gear available, the rules set, I would say Haste is the least of your worries. When that 5 level higher PC spawns in something really hard for the lower leveled character, is there not a Balance issue? When that 5 level spawns in the loot drops, is he not giving the higher leveled gear to the lower level? What I see there, and what you see there, are probably 2 completely different views on what is acceptable for Balance. Neither is wrong, but agreement is unlikely.

If you as a player don't like haste don't use it. If you as a builder don't like haste, then don't add it in, or change the scripting/2da file to what you think is balanced. NWN lets you do that. You will However never, ever, achieve the universal balance that everyone in our community will agree to, let alone implement. if you want to make changes to the script, or 2da and don't know how, ask, our community, for the most part, is rather helpful.

Like I said, I don't use Bio scripted haste, nor Haste permanent items in my builds. I don't even use items higher than general +2. When haste is cast, it does not last long. It does not grant a huge defensive bonus, and it does not stack with other defensive magic. The Slow spell removes the Haste. So does Dispel magic, and the other magic stripping spells, and Slow traps do as well.

Lastly, and probably most often overlooked in NWN, a DM can make all the difference. DMs can give the spawn, haste items. the Dms can cast haste on the spawn. A DM can remove effects, and add effects to the PC. While that is not necessarily Balance implementation it is at least randomness from the usual, and can turn a "normal encounter into a challenging one.

[MagicalMaster]

Well, first of all, a level 35 with haste is typically more powerful than a level 40 without haste, strictly speaking, but I realize what you're trying to get at.

Second, and more importantly, I think you misunderstand what I meant.  When you're creating an enemy creature, you have to pick values for AC, AB, and HP. Whether you assume the players have Haste makes a big difference for these values.

If a mob built assuming no Haste has 100 HP, 15 AB, and 20 AC or something, assuming Haste you'd need to do something like 150 HP, 19 AB, and 20 AC.

Balance between classes is a whole other potential bag of worms, and I alluded to it I suppose, but I was referring more to the literal stat values that would change on mobs.

Modifié par MagicalMaster, 28 mai 2012 - 05:39 .

[SHOVA]

I can see your point.
Personally, I cap all my games at level 20. I have played epic level games before, but have yet, to see one that isn't, imho, ridiculously cheesy in some way.

As for building the enemy creature, I tend to make said creature 2 levels higher than whatever class the creature is designed to be for. (I make Wizard specific creatures for wizard etc.) I tend to also make creatures with a extreme vulnerability, a minor vulnerability, and a minor and major immunity. I also make sure to add a immunity to a specific spell, here and there just to keep casters thinking.

I agree with you, Bio's version of haste is hard to deal with in a MP environment. Especially at higher, and gulp, epic levels. But, I believe that just like the classes are not equal, neither are the monsters. it really comes down to 3 choices for dealing with Haste as Bio made it. You can:
A- use it, and not worry about the effects.
B- remove it completely and not worry about the effects.
C- change it and not worry about the effects.
its all a mater of what style you want.

[HipMaestro]

For my own tastes, I crave permahaste whenever and wherever I play.  Why?  I prefer to run.  Everywhere.  All he time. Fast like a wabbit. In RL or egaming... walking or slow running (will willingly drop inventory to assure zero encumberance) puts me to sleep. Egaming is not like a hiking trip in the mountains, examining the fauna & flora in your leisure (although some RP servers have tried to slow down the experience to more accurately depict RL).  There are goals to achieve and if you want to experience many different worlds and community content there are bajillions of goals to look forward to and time's a'wastin', me hardy.  Unless you started playing NWN straight out of the womb, that walking "drag" will age you prematurely and limit the scope of your enjoyment so significantly that even the most dedicated fan will not be able to taste everything they want.

So, IMO, there should be a special version of Haste designed just for me and my toons, all classes.  All it does is allow my PC to get from Point A to Point B fast.  Except for combat effectiveness issues, I care little about extra attacks, extra spells or extra AC.  Just allow my blamed toon to get to the inn for some libation before its navigator falls asleep at the keyboard.  WHERE'S THE TELEPORT SPELL? *lol*  Who has the dice?

In addition, though admittedly lots of folks get their rocks off dueling, as far as I am concerned, it isn't D&D, not as I remember it, and can be removed from all servers.  The balancing needed to assure "fair" dueling is a waste of effort IMHO.  Just my own bias.  Nothing more.

Modifié par HipMaestro, 28 mai 2012 - 02:40 .

[SHOVA]

Hip, knowing how most areas are built, I can certainly understand why you feel that way.

The teleport spell is in the PRC. Though I admit, it is rather limited.

[WebShaman]

First of all, Perma-Haste, much like a few other overly powerful feats, abilities, etc (Dev Crit, HiPS, etc) are unbalanced.

I really think enough has been said about it in this thread, so I will just offer that I am personally against Perma-Haste, because it is an "all or nothing" sort of thing in the game - either all have access to it, or no-one should. It is just that unbalancing.

I prefer to just keep Haste (even extended, yadda yadda yadda) and such in the game instead.

Perma Haste turns a Spellcaster into a Super Spellcaster, and they basically don't need the extra power anyway...

I have a bone to pick with SHOVA here - the teleport spell is rather limited??!! I beg to differ! It is majorly awesome! Not only is it a "get out of danger fast!" sort of thing (put it in a quickslot, bam! Gone!), but combined with Scrying...and you can really get around!!!!! Also, being able to port an entire party is sweeeeeet!!! Especially when you have LOTS of Summons!

I like to use it to port into a Magnificent Mansion...hehe....instant rest!!! Or in an Inn, if that is blocked (which it should be, IMHO). So Teleport can be used as the ultimate retreat and repower spell, and return you to the "scene" powered up and ready to rock! How is this then "rather limited"?

Combine it with a Contingency spell, and you are basically safe from being PKed...

So, IMO, there should be a special version of Haste designed just for me and my toons, all classes.

Actually, there is! It is called Expedious Retreat, and works just like you have described. One can have this 1st level spell easily put on items, and repeatedly cast. I have even seen ingenious uses of this in PWs, put on roads so that one can move faster on them...

There are also other ways to increase the speed of units, without giving the bonuses of Haste through scripting.

[Elhanan]

Personally, I believe the Haste spell is simply overpowerd for the current 3rd Spell Lvl; should be 7th-9th tier with all current adds.

Another spell like Lesser Haste should replace the slot, allowing for both speed and Dodge AC, but only allow the extra attacks on the Greater Haste form in the upper tier. IMO.

[SHOVA]

Web, the limitation is getting it to work properly in MP.
while it may work as intended for some, I have yet to get it to work as such, after 3 days of playing with it, I finally got the options to show up, but getting them to work (in MP) has yet to happen. I assume its a problem on my end, and that I will eventually figure it out, however the documentation/tech solutions are limited, and at this point frustrating to say the least.

As to haste, I agree, either add it so everyone has it, or remove it so no one does, otherwise it will drive you nuts.

[MrZork]

Elhanan wrote...

Personally, I believe the Haste spell is simply overpowerd for the current 3rd Spell Lvl; should be 7th-9th tier with all current adds.

Yikes! IMO, that's a bit high for a spell with a one-round-per-caster-level duration. Maybe 4th level. For comparison, Divine Power is level 4, offering extra HP, higher AB, extra attacks, and a strength bonus.

IMO, the problem with haste is that combining the extra attack with the +4 dodge bonus pushes the spell over the top. Haste holds a big advantage both offensively and defensively and has no downside. If there were no AC bonus (or even if it were +1 or +2), the haste effect wouldn't be so unbalancing.

Another approach would be to include a significant negative aspect of being hasted. For example, change haste so that a hasted character has the duration of any other buffs cut in half, though that might be a scripting nightmare. A simpler approach might be to rationalize that haste "destabilizes" other magiks on a character, implemented by a dispel effect that occurs when the haste is cast or perma-hasted item is equipped. But, while that works okay for cast haste (with its short duration), without further scripting it's not very effective for haste items, since other buffs could be cast after the item is equipped. But adding some cost might help balance the effect.

[Elhanan]

MrZork wrote...

Yikes! IMO, that's a bit high for a spell with a one-round-per-caster-level duration. Maybe 4th level. For comparison, Divine Power is level 4, offering extra HP, higher AB, extra attacks, and a strength bonus.

IMO, the problem with haste is that combining the extra attack with the +4 dodge bonus pushes the spell over the top. Haste holds a big advantage both offensively and defensively and has no downside. If there were no AC bonus (or even if it were +1 or +2), the haste effect wouldn't be so unbalancing.

Another approach would be to include a significant negative aspect of being hasted. For example, change haste so that a hasted character has the duration of any other buffs cut in half, though that might be a scripting nightmare. A simpler approach might be to rationalize that haste "destabilizes" other magiks on a character, implemented by a dispel effect that occurs when the haste is cast or perma-hasted item is equipped. But, while that works okay for cast haste (with its short duration), without further scripting it's not very effective for haste items, since other buffs could be cast after the item is equipped. But adding some cost might help balance the effect.

My reasoning is that Haste is better than Auto-Quicken, and the latter has Epic prereqs. And as others have noted, in Perm form it is unbalancing. By placing the present form at a higher tier spell helps make it a bit more strategic in selection.

Personally, I am good with the speed and Dodge bonuses in Perm form; tis the extra attack which makes it unbalanced. IMO/

[HipMaestro]

WebShaman wrote...

So, IMO, there should be a special version of Haste designed just for me and my toons, all classes.

Actually, there is! It is called Expedious Retreat, and works just like you have described. One can have this 1st level spell easily put on items, and repeatedly cast. I have even seen ingenious uses of this in PWs, put on roads so that one can move faster on them...

Yup, that's the ticket!  Never considered adding charges of it before.  Good notion, Web.   Too bad it can't be placed on as a permanent property like the Haste spell, well, at least not with vanilla resources anyway.

Also, I believe it stacks with Mass Haste to produce a fuel-injected version like the road runner.

[Shadooow]

HipMaestro wrote...

WebShaman wrote...

So, IMO, there should be a special version of Haste designed just for me and my toons, all classes.

Actually, there is! It is called Expedious Retreat, and works just like you have described. One can have this 1st level spell easily put on items, and repeatedly cast. I have even seen ingenious uses of this in PWs, put on roads so that one can move faster on them...

Yup, that's the ticket!  Never considered adding charges of it before.  Good notion, Web.   Too bad it can't be placed on as a permanent property like the Haste spell, well, at least not with vanilla resources anyway.

Also, I believe it stacks with Mass Haste to produce a fuel-injected version like the road runner.

Tip: A PW with community patch installed can add on item an integer variable ITEM_CASTER_LEVEL_OVERRIDE with value for example 9999 and you get almost permanent speed until dispelled of course.