103 réponses à ce sujet

[The Spamming Troll]

AlanC9 wrote...

jreezy wrote...

DWH1982 wrote...

I liked their reasoning for keeping the squad smaller in ME3: So that it would be easier to provide quality interaction with them.

Too bad they didn't really deliver on that. What we got was a smaller squad than ME2, but with loads of auto-dialouge.

This. The fact that they didn't deliver on the squad interactions is my biggest problem. This is just another lesson learned for me though. I'll never take BioWare at its word ever again.

Wait a minute. I counted the interactions, and this is nonsense. You get as much or more interaction with the squadmates in ME3. Plus the autodialogue. Plus mission reactions. Plus squadmate-squadmate interaction.

i want face time. i want to be intamate with these characters. i dont want push A to hear three lines of dialogue but then on the fourth time theyll repeatedly say "hello, sheaprd." i want to talk with them, have conversations, ask questions, and feel engaged. ME3s auto dialogue and eavsdropping makes me feel every NPC is not worth talking to. from my LI, to random idiot eavsdrop quest NPC.

i think they took away the little thing that made interactions worthwhile, and maybe replaced with your other dialogue points.

[Raven Kesrar]

DWH1982 wrote...

Frankly, I'm fine with the reduced number of squadmates. Even with this many, there are a few I barely use. I think EDI only goes out for a small number of missions, and I don't think I touch Vega at all after I get Ash back.

I know people liked the ME2 squad, but, really - for me, half of them just sat on the ship, aside from their loyalty mission.

EDIT: Am I the only one who thinks the Cerberus base assault would have been a heck of a lot more interesting with Miranda along instead of EDI?

I think this as well, from all the characters I miss the most from ME2 is Miranda, if she could have come on this mission it would have been so cool

[Heather Cline]

I didn't like Javik, would have killed him if possible. EDI was my go to girl for tech powers, loved her to death. Never used Garrus, never used Tali, Never used James or the VS person either. My core squad is always Liara and EDI with my femshep. Seriously they kick ass and take names like no tomorrow.

Frankly I could have done without the other squad members entirely.

[SlottsMachine]

My issue with the squad banter in ME3 is that 90% of time its used as a means to inform new players on character back stories, basic lore, etc.

[D24O]

I don't understand why everybody complains about Vega being "Jersey" I know next to nothing about that show, but I was alright with his character, not great, but I liked him.

[vvDRUCILLAvv]

ME2 had a squad size double that of ME3 and still managed to get fully fleshed out conversations with each of the characters at different intervals in the story. I don't see why that couldn't have happened in ME3 as well. I hated the new squad conversation system, it felt cheap to me as if I was talking to some random NPC on the Citadel. So many corners were cut, ME3 had the potential to be the most epic game to date. What a shame.

[spirosz]

jreezy wrote...

This. The fact that they didn't deliver on the squad interactions is my biggest problem. This is just another lesson learned for me though. I'll never take BioWare at its word ever again.

Technically, they did deliver with the squad interaction.  The banter between the squad was great, the problem is because of "who" the banter was between.  I bet if it was a good mix of ME1 and ME2's squad, it would of been recieved more positively.  

Javik and Vega jokes, classic.  

Tali and Garrus moments, classic.

Javik in general, loved most of his banter, especially the one with Jack and Grunt.

Drunk Tali, etc.  

[DWH1982]

spiros9110 wrote...

Technically, they did deliver with the squad interaction.  The banter between the squad was great, the problem is because of "who" the banter was between.  I bet if it was a good mix of ME1 and ME2's squad, it would of been recieved more positively.  

Javik and Vega jokes, classic.  

Tali and Garrus moments, classic.

Javik in general, loved most of his banter, especially the one with Jack and Grunt.

Drunk Tali, etc.  

No.

Interaction between squadmates is fine, but I want actual discussions with Shepard. You know - in depth. Where I can actually control how Shepard responds.

Everything else is just cute jibber jabber. Not the kind of in depth role playing I'd expect from a Mass Effect game. But, then, Mass Effect has had less of that with each installment.

[spirosz]

DWH1982 wrote...

spiros9110 wrote...

Technically, they did deliver with the squad interaction.  The banter between the squad was great, the problem is because of "who" the banter was between.  I bet if it was a good mix of ME1 and ME2's squad, it would of been recieved more positively.  

Javik and Vega jokes, classic.  

Tali and Garrus moments, classic.

Javik in general, loved most of his banter, especially the one with Jack and Grunt.

Drunk Tali, etc.  

No.

Interaction between squadmates is fine, but I want actual discussions with Shepard. You know - in depth. Where I can actually control how Shepard responds.

Everything else is just cute jibber jabber. Not the kind of in depth role playing I'd expect from a Mass Effect game. But, then, Mass Effect has had less of that with each installment.

What I wrote was related towards the interaction between the squad mates themselves, not specifically Shepard, which they did deliver on, but not as some wanted in some cases.  As I am in agreement with wanting more in depth conversation with Shepard and his/her squads, but don't get me started with the auto dialogue bull****.  

[DWH1982]

Ah, I understand then.

[wizardryforever]

DWH1982 wrote...

I'm sorry, but I don't give a frigging crap about squadmates interacting with each other if I don't get the chance to have in depth conversations with them.

And I don't care if anyone "counts the interactions," they felt bare to me. Ash said virtually nothing on the Normandy, and never left the damn observation deck.

Ashley is an anomaly among the squadmates, not the average.  I too was disappointed about Ashley's lack of dialogue.  Take Garrus for example, or James.  Someone who is with you most/all of the game, and tell me that they never interact with you or have anything to say.  It doesn't matter if it goes into cutscene-style dialogue, if they say something to you that has substance, it's dialogue.  And many times, Shepard says something back to them.

[known_hero]

First of all, EDI was awesome in ME3. She was funny,cute, intellectual, and dat voice

Anyway, I don't understand the the argument of "ME2 had too many squadmates". It encouraged experimentation. I really don't see how it was a negative. Maybe someone can elaborate.

Modifié par known_hero, 25 mai 2012 - 01:43 .

[Nicksta92]

Not as a combat squad member, but Im happy with what they did with EDI. Giving her a body and facial expressions to show her journey to self awareness was a really nice touch

[DWH1982]

wizardryforever wrote...

 It doesn't matter if it goes into cutscene-style dialogue,

Yes. It does.

wizardryforever wrote...

if they say something to you that has substance, it's dialogue.

No. Sometimes it's autodialouge.

wizardryforever wrote...

And many times, Shepard says something back to them.

Ah. I see. "Many times."

Also, "Shepard" saying something back automatically is part of the damn problem, in case you haven't been paying attention.

People spent two games building their own version of Shepard. Sometimes he (or she) is a saint, sometimes he's a jerk, and sometimes he's a little in between. But in every case, he was theirs. Suddenly, with ME3, they have no choice but to either skip content (that they paid for!) or listen as "Shepard" says things totally out of character for what they've spent two games establishing. I.E. - people he barely tolerated, treated in a neutral way, or was downright hostile towards are suddenly "old friends," despite how the player would prefer to continue treating the relationship.

I had no problem with the autodialouge fitting my vision of Shepard, but, frankly, I can see how other people would - and it'd be nice to have some control over the conversation in case I ever decide I want to play a different Shepard. The autodialouge suits paragon Shepard. It does not suit many of the other wide ranges of Shepards that have been established. Given that Mass Effect is supposed to be a "Role Playing Game" that gives players "Choices," I feel this is just a bit of a problem.

The fact that the conversation wheel was further toned down for the few real conversations we have only adds insult to injury.

EDIT: On second thought, I've decided that the autodialouge works, and that I am now a believer in indoctrination theory. Why didn't we have full control over Shepard? Why were some players forced to watch as he gave uncharacteristic responses in coversations? Simple. He was indoctrinated! That's why ME3 is so lacking in conversation choices - Harbringer was forcing us to give canned responses!

Modifié par DWH1982, 25 mai 2012 - 02:27 .

[known_hero]

jreezy wrote...

known_hero wrote...

Anyway, I don't understand the the argument of "ME2 had too many squadmates". It encouraged experimentation. I really don't see how it was a negative. Maybe someone can elaborate.

Squad interaction suffered as a result of the new squadmates. Banter that was in Mass Effect was absent in the sequel. There's a lack of post-mission opinions and post-mission conversations in general in the sequel.

OK, I can understand that. I do agree that the squad banter in 3 is leaps and bounds better than 2. I didn't like how some characters didn't speak at all during certain missions in 2.

My biggest gripe with the squad mate system in 3 is Liara; she's way overpowered. She can cause tech burst/biotic explosions, has an ammo power, her singularity is deadly against guardians, and let's not forget STATIS! Easily the most overpowered squad mate in the entire series. She makes things too easy. Not a big deal though. Outside of that, I really don't have any problems with 3's SM system. Well, I take that back: I hate that we don't get Ash back until later in the game. Outside of that I don't have any problems

[capn233]

This discussion is all over the map. I have some observations though.

The nail was hit on the head regarding why you get super plot armored Liara, EDI, and James. Those are your guaranteed biotic, tech and combat squad members. Basically anyone else (with the exception of Javik) could be dead by ME3.

However, I don't think that this necessarily leads to the most satisfactory result. I too wish they would have included more ME2 characters, but the one that might fit the best is Miranda. She is somewhat hard to kill on the Suicide Mission, and she could be the "sentinel" on the squad for people who don't have Kaidan. She's also one of the few squad members in ME2 that would actually be inclined to continue the fight against the Reapers given the info she had access to in her previous occupation. She clearly should not be there on Earth (unless they were to make the story more divergent and interesting based on ME2 decisions). There is no real reason why should couldn't have been recruited after your first meeting on the Citadel, however. Also the potential for tense situations between Ash (or Kaidan) and Miri would be very interesting.

Grunt would also be an interesting candidate if he weren't killable in ME2. He had no prior obligation to anybody during ME2 (since he wasn't "born" yet) but it makes sense he would return to Tuchanka when Shepard turns himself in.

Legion would have also been an interesting choice. It obviously holds Shepard in high regard (near Conrad Verner levels) and as the reason for that platform's creation was to find Shepard, perhaps he could have stayed on. The trouble would have been that I doubt Legion would have been able to simply hang out on Earth without getting escorted to an Alliance lab, and the war with the Quarians means that recruitment would have to wait until Geth Dreadnought anyway. But after that it would have been nice to have him.

Outside of those three, I wouldn't go as far as to say I don't care that they aren't squad members, but it makes even more sense that they wouldn't be.

Jacob had already had enough of the Alliance, and has had enough of Cerberus. I am not a Jacob hater, but I would rather have anybody that is in the game plus the above rather than him. I don't play femsheps, so maybe I am biased.

The others only agreed to go on your suicide mission and then planned to go their separate ways. Many of them weren't "team players" anyway.

Jack somehow managed to get her act together, due in no small part to the Shepard Effect, but we already had a pure biotic (Liara) and it was never her desire to play some sort of galactic hero anyway.

Thane is terminal and expected to die during or shortly after the Suicide Mission. I thought they way they handled Thane in the game was fine (but again, I don't play femshep). Some miracle cure would have been nearly as bad as the Starchild.

Samara only joined you for the mission as well and Justicars tended to work alone. Perhaps they could have made her recruitable if she was alive, and given her a unique skillset so that she didn't overlap too much with Liara or Kaidan.

Kasumi likewise only was around for a single mission. Although I like her character, it always struck me as odd that you would recruit a thief anyway. Be that as it may, her skillset (if implemented in ME3) would have at least made her unique. She was of course killable, and also may not have been recruited if you didn't have the DLC anyway.

Zaeed is a mercenary, and was paid to go on the SM (although killing Santiago may have been his primary motivation). He could have provided a tank, but he would have overlapped with Ash. Granted, you could argue that if Ash is dead it would be nice to have a tank with rifles (along the same lines as my Miranda argument) but he also was DLC only and not as central to ME2 as Miri.

Of course, if I was the one making the game it would have been different and practically anybody surviving the first two games would have potentially been recruitable. Of course, some plot elements would be different as well and I probably would have wanted to do something more ambitious where alignment towards the Alliance or Cerberus would have factored into how the story progressed.

[numark]

I wish they would have done this:

1) Develop each previous squad member's story for ME3 assuming that they're alive.

2) If they are alive, give the player the option to recruit them (doesn't HAVE to recruit them).

3) Give the Normandy crew space for only, I dunno say 7-8 squaddies max. So on one playthrough a player might focus on recruiting ME2 squaddies (ex. Grunt, Miranda, etc). Another playthrough, say their ME2 squaddies are dead, they might focus on recruiting ME1 squaddies (ex. Tali, Garrus,etc). IF certain ones are dead, they're not recruitable obviously, but a player would still have the default amount which is enough to beat the game with. If you choose not to recruit them to your squad they become a war asset instead.

4. This would obviously take a lot more development time. But it would also potentially add to the replay value. Yes, maybe having to do multiple playthroughs to get each of your ME3 squadmates stories' might be not liked by some, but I think it would encourage multiple playthroughs. Maybe have an achievement for it.

As it stands this is all "what if" and not what we got in-game, so that being said if I had to narrow down 1 thing I would've liked to see in my ME3 squad was more dialogue wheels in conversations with them and less auto-dialogue.

Modifié par numark, 25 mai 2012 - 05:59 .

[fainmaca]

Personally I don't get why so many people have such a vitriolic reaction when its suggested that the squad should have been larger. If you think there are too many on the squad, don't use them all. But let them be there for those who want the larger squad.

IRL, an army squad can be up to 13 members, and the Army equivalent of a Lieutenant Commander (What Shep is in ME1, not sure if they get promoted) commands 80+ people. The Naval equivalent simply commands a ship or installation. So its not like it'd break realism.

What I feel should have been done is that we got all 2 to 12 squad mates from ME2 (Depending on DLC purchased, whether you sold Legion or not, opened Grunt's tank or not, and who survived the SM) plus the VS and Liara. in addition, you get one more squaddie, who varies depending on who you saved on Virmire (You get a tech if you saved Ashley, and you get a combatant if you saved Kaidan). That's a total of 15. Not that big of an increase over ME2, and nobody's fanbase has been short-changed. Only two new characters, technically, and they've done the inter-changable class-based squaddies before (Hawke's sibling, I believe).

This would have at least made ME2 feel relevant, as it then became about building the badass team we use to win the war, and it also gives us a tangible feel to the choice consequence part of the games, giving us a completely different squad depending on how well we did in previous games.

As for squad interaction, while I felt there was some in this game, it felt very much the same as what we had in ME2. Squaddie 1 voices opinion A, Squaddie 2 voices opinion B, flavour as appropriate. Worst part is you can't contribute to the interaction, so it feels kind of frustrating. Never did we have interaction between more than two squad mates at the same time. Shouldn't have been too hard to script a few more of these.

[CG Drum]

numark wrote...

I wish they would have done this:

1) Develop each previous squad member's story for ME3 assuming that they're alive.

2) If they are alive, give the player the option to recruit them (doesn't HAVE to recruit them).

3) Give the Normandy crew space for only, I dunno say 7-8 squaddies max. So on one playthrough a player might focus on recruiting ME2 squaddies (ex. Grunt, Miranda, etc). Another playthrough, say their ME2 squaddies are dead, they might focus on recruiting ME1 squaddies (ex. Tali, Garrus,etc). IF certain ones are dead, they're not recruitable obviously, but a player would still have the default amount which is enough to beat the game with. If you choose not to recruit them to your squad they become a war asset instead.

4. This would obviously take a lot more development time. But it would also potentially add to the replay value. Yes, maybe having to do multiple playthroughs to get each of your ME3 squadmates stories' might be not liked by some, but I think it would encourage multiple playthroughs. Maybe have an achievement for it.

As it stands this is all "what if" and not what we got in-game, so that being said if I had to narrow down 1 thing I would've liked to see in my ME3 squad was more dialogue wheels in conversations with them and less auto-dialogue.

I so agree with you - to have made it so we could choose who to recruit out of the surviving squad members would have been amazing and would have meant that our actions would have definate consequences to who we could  or couldn't have with us. 

I was hoping this was the way it would go prior to playing the game and was wondering how my renegade FemShep was going to cope after a suicide mission with many deaths.  Would have given the game so much replayability as well. 

But I guess time and money wins out unfortunatley - as it would have taken a lot of work to get it right.  Shame.

[RedCaesar97]

Personally, I am totally fine with the number of squadmates in ME3 and am okay with who is on the squad. For all the talk about Mass Effect 2 squadmates, with the exception of their loyalty missions, I rarely used half of them on any given playthrough. Even now, I barely use certain squadmates.

As for the "auto-dialogue", I like it. In my opinion, it allowed the writers to flesh out the characters personalities more. If it wasn't for auto-dialogue, I would probably still think Garrus is an overrated character. In ME1 and ME2 you had what, 3 to 4 conversations at most with each character? And most of the conversation was "Tell me more about ____."

Seriously, in ME1 you had at most 6 squadmates. And if you were going for the achievements you basically had to marry yourself to 2 of them. ME2 allowed more flexibility among squadmates but I find I bench most of them (Grunt and Zaeed especially). I am not saying that ME3 hits the sweet spot (it doesn't) but I think it is good that no squadmate really overlaps with another squadmate.

[SirCroft]

I like the squad. I prefer ME2's though.

[samb]

Heather Cline wrote...

 EDI was my go to girl for tech powers,

Nice to see another EDI fan.  She was one of the more useful squad mates in the game.  Incinerate and Overload for protection stripping, decoy and defense matrix for durability, and unshackled AI for support.  How could you not like her just from a gameplay perspective? 

Her character devolpment also served to bring the "organic vs synthetic" debate into sharper focus, which, if you missed it, was the point of the whole war.  Sure I would have liked to have Mirada back, but EDI did serve an important point in the narrative.

[numark]

samb wrote...

Heather Cline wrote...

 EDI was my go to girl for tech powers,

Nice to see another EDI fan.  She was one of the more useful squad mates in the game.  Incinerate and Overload for protection stripping, decoy and defense matrix for durability, and unshackled AI for support.  How could you not like her just from a gameplay perspective? 

Her character devolpment also served to bring the "organic vs synthetic" debate into sharper focus, which, if you missed it, was the point of the whole war.  Sure I would have liked to have Mirada back, but EDI did serve an important point in the narrative.

From a gameplay perspective EDI was very redundant for me since I rolled an Engineer. Her (and Tali) still had their uses though on synthetic-heavy missions, which there weren't that many though.

As far as character development her romance with Joker had some nice moments. But her whole organic vs. synthetic dialogue moments I felt were basically nothing I hadn't already heard from Legion. 

Now having her AND Legion on the ship at the same time, that would have been awesome and could have led to some pretty interesting dialogue moments between the two, since we already know EDI and Legion did talk to each other a bit form the Shadow Broker dossiers in ME2.