133 réponses à ce sujet

[Zhuinden]

DoctorEss wrote...

PossibleCabbage wrote...

I would prefer they didn't. I like the multiplayer to be consistent with single player lore. The Protheans are all dead, except for Javik. There's no huge cache of them where tens of thousands of people can play with them in multiplayer.

To be honest, I'd prefer they never even found one that was viable to unfreeze.

Prove there aren't any more frozen.

Prove no one can clone them, despite having living Prothean tissue available.

C'mon.  None of the anti-Prothean people can give one good reason.

Apart from that finding ONE prothean alive from 50000 years ago is almost a miracle, finding an entire prothean army is contrived and stupid. Cloning them, who would clone them? Cerberus? (I know you'd say Salarians, but why would they mass-clone them? that would be stupid).
Seriously, the only thing I can say to cloning is, why don't we just have a gigantic Shepard army? We created one from nothing before, we could create thousands of them as well.


Basically, if you find hidden stasis pods with thousands of Protheans, then Javik's storyline doesn't make any sense.

[Rite All Wrong]

Father Superior wrote...

Even with the husk of an ending that they gave us, they managed to combine their incredible minds to silently give to us what could be the single greatest feat of storytelling in the history of literature (assuming the Indoctrination Theory is true, which I believe it is). With talent like that, I have total faith that Bioware could seamlessly weave Protheans back into the Mass Effect universe [...]

You really drank the Kool-Aid, didn't you?

So... I read your wall of text and I can see you've got a lot of ideas and a lot of faith in BW. What I can not see in there however is a single compelling argument for Protheans in MP.

[TheKingBoar]

jaDanger wrote...

TheKingBoar wrote...

Funny how those who don't want Protheans refuse to read lore based justifications while insisting that they don't fit into lore. Reminds me of an Ostrich.

Funny how whenever those explanations get holes punched through them the argument suddenly becomes SP=/=MP.

The "holes" you speak of are absurd and easily dealt with. See the Y U no Protheans thread, and try harder next time.

Zhuinden wrote...

DoctorEss wrote...

PossibleCabbage wrote...

I
would prefer they didn't. I like the multiplayer to be consistent with
single player lore. The Protheans are all dead, except for Javik.
There's no huge cache of them where tens of thousands of people can play
with them in multiplayer.

To be honest, I'd prefer they never even found one that was viable to unfreeze.

Prove there aren't any more frozen.

Prove no one can clone them, despite having living Prothean tissue available.

C'mon.  None of the anti-Prothean people can give one good reason.

Apart
from that finding ONE prothean alive from 50000 years ago is almost a
miracle, finding an entire prothean army is contrived and stupid.
Cloning them, who would clone them? Cerberus? (I know you'd
say Salarians, but why would they mass-clone them? that would be
stupid).
Seriously, the only thing I can say to cloning is, why don't
we just have a gigantic Shepard army? We created one from nothing
before, we could create thousands of them as well.


Basically, if you find hidden stasis pods with thousands of Protheans, then Javik's storyline doesn't make any sense.

No one has ever said you need to clone an army of them, just enough to throw a potentially game changing biotic into a specialized strike force... like oh, the N7 operations. Why would the Salarian's mass cloning powerful biotics be stupid? Sounds pretty stupid to not do it. Shepard army != the same as training Prothean strike forces, which don't require the same development as humans do.

Hidden stasis pods has zero impact on Javik's storyline. He was excited then crushed about Ilos, why would he not be thrilled to find another stasis cache?

Modifié par TheKingBoar, 24 mai 2012 - 10:01 .

[Xaijin]

TheKingBoar wrote...

Funny how those who don't want Protheans refuse to read lore based justifications while insisting that they don't fit into lore. Reminds me of an Ostrich.

There are no lore based justifications. Quite the opposite actually, epsecially based on Shepard's conversations with Javik after Tuchanka on. You're much better saying "I want protheans cause I like how Javik is an **** to everybody and has cool powers and I want to totally do that in MP", because then it would actually be the truth. Vigil and Javik destroy pretty much any chances for other protheans.

Modifié par Xaijin, 24 mai 2012 - 10:05 .

[Methaluan_Sylver]

known_hero wrote...

For the people who didn't read, he basically says EA will bring Protheans to MP because they are in the money making business and that lore is irreverent. The rest of text is just fluff.

Not really a good argument. If that's the case, why not bring in Issac Clark from dead space or Lightning from Final Fantasy. MP ties into SP so it has to make sense. To bring in a bunch of Protheans soldiers without any kind of explanation would just be big slap in the overall story's face.

*claps*

Many things dont make sense on MP, sure. But Bioware is trying to make have a connection on SP to MP, and putting Protheans just like that would screw that up. Maybe when Bioware stop this kind of events, they give us a bonus DLC with Protheans and Collectors and more weapons and locations for the past cicle, but just not for now I think.

[TheKingBoar]

Xaijin wrote...

TheKingBoar wrote...

Funny how those who don't want Protheans refuse to read lore based justifications while insisting that they don't fit into lore. Reminds me of an Ostrich.

There are no lore based justifications. Quite the opposite actually, epsecially based on Shepard's conversations with Javik after Tuchanka on. You're much better saying "I want protheans cause I like how Javik is an **** to everybody and has cool powers and I want to totally do that in MP", because then it would actually be the truth. Vigil and Javik destroy pretty much any chances for other protheans.

For the love of god, read the lore justifications and you'll find they're actually perfectly convincing. Vigil was wrong about Javik for one. Javik could very well be wrong too considering he wasn't aware of Ilos. You have presented absolutely nothing compelling to backup your argument while I have done that for mine many, many times now. Your argument so far has consisted of "no, you're wrong, I'm right." See my sig please.

[Mittyho2]

TheKingBoar wrote...

No one has ever said you need to clone an army of them, just enough to throw a potentially game changing biotic into a specialized strike force... like oh, the N7 operations. Why would the Salarian's mass cloning powerful biotics be stupid? Sounds pretty stupid to not do it. Shepard army != the same as training Prothean strike forces, which don't require the same development as humans do.

Hidden stasis pods has zero impact on Javik's storyline. He was excited then crushed about Ilos, why would he not be thrilled to find another stasis cache?

Do you really think the Council would agree to cloning an army of super-powerful biotics? Do you not think they may catch on the fact that seeing as though the protheans once ruled the galaxy, maybe they would want to do it again? Javik still looks down upon other races, so it's not like an entire army of protheans would appreciate obeying the demands of the Council - I doubt they would even want to be 'equals'. 

[PossibleCabbage]

DoctorEss wrote...
Prove there aren't any more frozen.

Prove no one can clone them, despite having living Prothean tissue available.

C'mon.  None of the anti-Prothean people can give one good reason.

1) It's impossible to prove a negative.  But consider the following.  The greatest Prothean minds sequestered themselves on Ilos in order to save their species, they did not have sufficient resources to preserve even one living specimen despite having an essentially unlimited budget.  If those guys couldn't save themselves, I doubt anybody else could.  Moreover, the Protheans have been dead and gone for 50,000 years.  If there were a lot of them lying around, it's entirely likely that we would have stumbled upon them during a time when we had more time for things like "archaeology" instead of "in the middle of a galactic war."

2) Sure, you can clone Protheans.  But this whole war that Shepard fights takes place in under a year, so is that enough time to figure out how to clone Prothenas, for Protheans to develop to their physical peak, and for Protheans to learn how to be effective combatants without access to the technology that Protheans used to impart knowledge?  It is unlikely.  Moreover, Javik has no interest in bringing back his species, and is busy helping Shepard.  It's unlikely that he would assist in this process.

I didn't say why there *can't* be Protheans, I just said why I prefer that there wouldn't *be* Protheans.  It's the same reason I prefer that there wouldn't be Volus characters: it would be sily.

[Sonintega]

@theKingBoar: You are the average BSNer.

[TheKingBoar]

Mittyho2 wrote...

TheKingBoar wrote...

No one has ever said you need to clone an army of them, just enough to throw a potentially game changing biotic into a specialized strike force... like oh, the N7 operations. Why would the Salarian's mass cloning powerful biotics be stupid? Sounds pretty stupid to not do it. Shepard army != the same as training Prothean strike forces, which don't require the same development as humans do.

Hidden stasis pods has zero impact on Javik's storyline. He was excited then crushed about Ilos, why would he not be thrilled to find another stasis cache?

Do you really think the Council would agree to cloning an army of super-powerful biotics? Do you not think they may catch on the fact that seeing as though the protheans once ruled the galaxy, maybe they would want to do it again? Javik still looks down upon other races, so it's not like an entire army of protheans would appreciate obeying the demands of the Council - I doubt they would even want to be 'equals'. 

Have you heard of the Krogan before? The Rachni? No? Because it's essentially the same thing, if not worse than the Protheans. There is nothing about Javik's personality either that means it matches the other Protheans. In fact, he is supposed to be their embodyment of Vengence and nothing else. His personality fits his purpose, but that does not extrapolate to others.

Sonintega wrote...

@theKingBoar: You are the average BSNer.

*slow clap* Thank you sir for your witty riposte. Why, I myself had clearly been blind and your stunning intellect has single handedly proven me wrong. I feel the shroud of internet drudgery coming off of me! I am redeemed! Thank you for saving me! Good show fine sir.

Modifié par TheKingBoar, 24 mai 2012 - 10:18 .

[xsdob]

Yes it will be here inevitably, but I'm hoping it comes in a coordinated 2 dlc release along with the extended cut or something like that.

Modifié par xsdob, 24 mai 2012 - 10:16 .

[Edalborez]

Kind of a cyclical argument, no?

"Protheans believed extinct, Javik believed to be the last living one"
vs
"Javik/Vigil are unreliable, there could be an army of Protheans we don't know about."

Where would those Protheans even be? Let's work under the assumption that civilization only mainly settled around mass relays. If the "Prothean relay" was dormant, I doubt anybody would be willing to activate that relay in the middle of an intergalactic war without Council approval (and they won't care). If it's on a known planet, you'd think they would have been discovered by now. Cloning to the extent that you have whole squads of Protheans doesn't sound like it would jive with the Salarians, and I can't imagine any other race that has both the means and the resources to do so.

Boy I feel like I lost brain cells by jumping into a lore argument. I'm probably not even right either. Oh well.

Modifié par Edalborez, 24 mai 2012 - 10:16 .

[PossibleCabbage]

I would rather play as a Rachni than a Prothean, anyway.

[Artemillion]

 @Father Superior, you have my full support 

[Eriseley]

DoctorEss wrote...

Prove there aren't any more frozen.

Prove no one can clone them, despite having living Prothean tissue available.

C'mon.  None of the anti-Prothean people can give one good reason.

You guys are talking about two entirely different things.

Sure, BioWare could make up whatever they want to add whatever they want. They could decide to add unicorns and leprechauns if they so chose. The Reapers could have been created by the cryogenically frozen person of Stephen Hawking sent back to near the beginning of the universe via being shot into a warp relay aimed at a black hole and revived by psionic amoebae.

What the other guy is essentially saying is that it dismantles the dramatic device that Protheans are extinct, and the explanations are contrived.

Modifié par Eriseley, 24 mai 2012 - 10:27 .

[Pitznik]

Protheans had the technology and planned to save themselves in stasis pods - so its certainly possible there is more. Considering they wanted to hide themselves from Reapers, it is likely they found some really inaccessible planet in really inaccessible system to make their chances better. So the potential to bring more protheans to live does exist, it can be done without breaking the lore and retconning. It is only up to Bioware if they do that.

[jaDanger]

The issue is thematic as well as simple lore. Javik's entire story is about him being a ghost from the past, representing a lost race, and being the last of his kind. It's about how he comes to grips with that. His final words in the game are a reflection on that exact theme.
Surprise Javik, actually there are a bunch more!
Cloning programs in Mass Effect are always huge and laced with failure. They also almost exclusively involve krogan, suggesting there is lots of race specific research to back that up, potentially since the rachni wars. The kakliosaur was a bit of a joke from the devs, plus would not need any imprinting as they are used as mounts and not fully intelligent species.
There is no evidence that a full prothean cloning program could be initiated and completed in the time from Javik's discovery to the final conflict.
Suddenly finding a bunch of stasis pods that we never noticed is equally unlikely.
I'm sure there are desparate arguments to counter this, but I can't think of any that wouldn't greatly diminish the thematic importance of the Javik story.

[Xaijin]

XxTaLoNxX wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

TheKingBoar wrote...

Funny how those who don't want Protheans refuse to read lore based justifications while insisting that they don't fit into lore. Reminds me of an Ostrich.

There are no lore based justifications. Quite the opposite actually, epsecially based on Shepard's conversations with Javik after Tuchanka on. You're much better saying "I want protheans cause I like how Javik is an **** to everybody and has cool powers and I want to totally do that in MP", because then it would actually be the truth. Vigil and Javik destroy pretty much any chances for other protheans.

Wrong. And I can mass label people too. Here watch.

People who don't want Protheans are basically saying, "I don't like Protheans and will throw a fit and use my failing sense of lore and what is right with the universe to argue my points, because I say so."

Except there isn't. Vigil and Ilos are specifically addressed, Javik's status is addressed, and so are his compatriots. If there were other chances for protheans, BioWare would adress it. They have not, and in fact, done quite the opposite.

Nice that you're trying to use a subjective stance with a passive agressive tincture on it, but the game itself says otherwise.

I like the prothean concept. A prothean character acting like a superiority ridden jackass and blowing up fools would be fine... in another game in the universe. Protheans and their fate is very clearly defined in the game, unlike say, what happens to the quarians and the geth if you choose to make peace. There are no long term avenues for protheans, and four VERY specific conversations/cutscenes make Javik's status and place in the world rather concrete. So unless BioWare intends to re-write Javik's lines and scenes in an upcoming installment, the lore is pretty absolute without retcon.

No Protheans. They left a little room for collectors, they didn't leave any for protheans, unless they intend to rewrite sections they've already addressed. The lore doesn't support it. Opinion != codex/cutscenes and no amount of exegesial semantic pedantry can rewrite it from a fan point of view. Only BW can.

Modifié par Xaijin, 24 mai 2012 - 10:40 .

[Rokayt]

1.It would kill the drama of the series.
2.How many of our planets do we keep emergency cryostatis people on? Huh.

I accidentally clicked 5 stars thinking the title read "PROTHEANS WILL NEVER COME TO MULTIPLAYER."
Stupid misclick....

[Pitznik]

jaDanger wrote...

Suddenly finding a bunch of stasis pods that we never noticed is equally unlikely.

As unlikely as on Ilos or as unlikely as on Eden Prime? They had lot of time to make a lot of preservation attempts, and it would be a smart thing to keep them separate. We're talking about galaxy here - plenty of unused space to hide stuff in.

But yeah, that would kill Javik's story, that is true.

[LeandroBraz]

The players are clearly divided. Putting protheans they are at the same time risking to loose players and winning some others. Even who don't play the MP will get pissed of when the announce prothean on MP, and they will get even more pissed of if it don't be handled with perfection, giving a SP background to it.

I don't think they will risk to ****** off a already pissed fan base, just to win a group of players for some weeks in the MP. A character is not enough to keep people playing, if they are smart, they will put their affort in something less risk, and that will bring more result, like new enemies and modes.




 so there won't be protheans in the SP, whether you like it or not =)

Modifié par LeandroBraz, 24 mai 2012 - 10:47 .

[Impulse and Compulse]

But Javik is a humanoid character who uses identical humanoid animations.

[Pitznik]

Rokayt wrote...

2.How many of our planets do we keep emergency cryostatis people on? Huh.

Again, Protheans seemed to like the idea, they did it twice, what would stop them from doing it third time? Especially if in the meantime they developed some new technology, or discovered something worth keeping.