133 réponses à ce sujet

[TheKingBoar]

Xaijin wrote...

XxTaLoNxX wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

TheKingBoar wrote...

Funny how those who don't want Protheans refuse to read lore based justifications while insisting that they don't fit into lore. Reminds me of an Ostrich.

There are no lore based justifications. Quite the opposite actually, epsecially based on Shepard's conversations with Javik after Tuchanka on. You're much better saying "I want protheans cause I like how Javik is an **** to everybody and has cool powers and I want to totally do that in MP", because then it would actually be the truth. Vigil and Javik destroy pretty much any chances for other protheans.

Wrong. And I can mass label people too. Here watch.

People who don't want Protheans are basically saying, "I don't like Protheans and will throw a fit and use my failing sense of lore and what is right with the universe to argue my points, because I say so."

Except there isn't. Vigil and Ilos are specifically addressed, Javik's status is addressed, and so are his compatriots. If there were other chances for protheans, BioWare would adress it. They have not, and in fact, done quite the opposite.

Nice that you're trying to use a subjective stance with a passive agressive tincture on it, but the game itself says otherwise.

I like the prothean concept. A prothean character acting like a superiority ridden jackass and blowing up fools would be fine... in another game in the universe. Protheans and their fate is very clearly defined in the game, unlike say, what happens to the quarians and the geth if you choose to make peace. There are no long term avenues for protheans, and four VERY specific conversations/cutscenes make Javik's status and place in the world rather concrete. So unless BioWare intends to re-write Javik's lines and scenes in an upcoming installment, the lore is pretty absolute without retcon.

No Protheans. They left a little room for collectors, they didn't leave any for protheans, unless they intend to rewrite sections they've already addressed. The lore doesn't support it. Opinion != codex/cutscenes and no amount of exegesial semantic pedantry can rewrite it from a fan point of view. Only BW can.

You have clearly missed the entire point of the thread. As always, there is nothing to prevent further Protheans from being found/cloned. Those hiding behind the thematic shield neglect to realize the possibility that would come from resurrecting an entire race (hi Rachni!) or saving/cloning them (howdy Krogan!). The emotion on Javik's face hearing about Ilos is clear. He doesn't want to be alone, but is practical enough to acknowlege and deal with it. To be honest, there weren't really long term avenues for the Rachni at first either, but Bioware still created them. I can think of plenty for the Protheans.

There is *nothing* about Javik's lines/story/thematic elements that would require even the slightest of retcons. Despite your proclimations, the lore supports it perfectly, especially considering we've already done it many times.

[TheKingBoar]

Pitznik wrote...

Rokayt wrote...

2.How many of our planets do we keep emergency cryostatis people on? Huh.

Again, Protheans seemed to like the idea, they did it twice, what would stop them from doing it third time? Especially if in the meantime they developed some new technology, or discovered something worth keeping.

Especially considering it took hundreds of years for the Reapers to wipe the Protheans out. I sure as hell would be aiming ships full of cryo pods into deep space if I saw what the Reapers are doing.

[Star fury]

Wishful thinking.

[LeandroBraz]

Pitznik wrote...

jaDanger wrote...

Suddenly finding a bunch of stasis pods that we never noticed is equally unlikely.

As unlikely as on Ilos or as unlikely as on Eden Prime? They had lot of time to make a lot of preservation attempts, and it would be a smart thing to keep them separate. We're talking about galaxy here - plenty of unused space to hide stuff in.

But yeah, that would kill Javik's story, that is true.

the reapers sistematically destroyed the protheans. Illos only survived because it was hidden, but even hidden they ended dead because of energy. Javik survived because was only one, it's far rmore simple for a single stasis pod to be ignored by the reapers than a entire group...

[jaDanger]

Pitznik wrote...

jaDanger wrote...

Suddenly finding a bunch of stasis pods that we never noticed is equally unlikely.

As unlikely as on Ilos or as unlikely as on Eden Prime? They had lot of time to make a lot of preservation attempts, and it would be a smart thing to keep them separate. We're talking about galaxy here - plenty of unused space to hide stuff in.

But yeah, that would kill Javik's story, that is true.

Like I said, the justifications have been argued to death, but i have a compulsive need to elabprate here,so... Ilos and Eden Prime were both special circumstances. Ilos was undiscovered because the relay had been lost until shepherd rediscovered it. Eden Prime was newly settled and would have become a hotspot for prothean archeology but was attacked immediately after the first discovery. The attacks have left it a small undeveloped colony, as opposed to other places where science and religion spring up around prothean finds. Admittedly, a few prothean relics pop up in minigame planet scans, but a prothean stasis facility with a whole army of protheans would be enormous, if Ilos is any indication. Not noticing a single in tact pod is one thing, but an enormous facility of Protheans is a hard sell. If it was going to be found, it would have been, if not then wartime is not likely a time to colonize long lost systems.

[ericjdev]

They are coming eventually, the whole 'Phoenix' thing was just to gauge customer response/demand.

Lore doesn't matter in MP at all, just playability.

Modifié par ericjdev, 24 mai 2012 - 10:55 .

[Rahabzu]

Descy_ wrote...

"Protheans are being added in Rebellion, for sure! Here's proof!"

*Rebellion info released*

"Okay, maybe not for Rebellion, but they will be added!"

I dont care if they do add them, but
1. Bioware needs to make a SP DLC explaining it first.
2. Dont get your hopes up that it will always be the next DLC or the next or the next.

This, having a special mission if you bring javik along would be interesting too.  I've said before either kill the clones, kill javik, or convince javik to keep the abominations alive(Hard) would be nice.  (Cerberus cloning Javik/protheans)

Modifié par Rahabzu, 24 mai 2012 - 10:56 .

[Zardoc]

ericjdev wrote...

They are coming eventually, the whole 'Phoenix' thing was just to gauge customer response/demand.

Lore doesn't matter in MP at all, just playability.

If only that were true. From what we've seen so far we can safely say it's quite the opposite.

[Xaijin]

TheKingBoar wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

XxTaLoNxX wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

TheKingBoar wrote...

Funny how those who don't want Protheans refuse to read lore based justifications while insisting that they don't fit into lore. Reminds me of an Ostrich.

There are no lore based justifications. Quite the opposite actually, epsecially based on Shepard's conversations with Javik after Tuchanka on. You're much better saying "I want protheans cause I like how Javik is an **** to everybody and has cool powers and I want to totally do that in MP", because then it would actually be the truth. Vigil and Javik destroy pretty much any chances for other protheans.

Wrong. And I can mass label people too. Here watch.

People who don't want Protheans are basically saying, "I don't like Protheans and will throw a fit and use my failing sense of lore and what is right with the universe to argue my points, because I say so."

Except there isn't. Vigil and Ilos are specifically addressed, Javik's status is addressed, and so are his compatriots. If there were other chances for protheans, BioWare would adress it. They have not, and in fact, done quite the opposite.

Nice that you're trying to use a subjective stance with a passive agressive tincture on it, but the game itself says otherwise.

I like the prothean concept. A prothean character acting like a superiority ridden jackass and blowing up fools would be fine... in another game in the universe. Protheans and their fate is very clearly defined in the game, unlike say, what happens to the quarians and the geth if you choose to make peace. There are no long term avenues for protheans, and four VERY specific conversations/cutscenes make Javik's status and place in the world rather concrete. So unless BioWare intends to re-write Javik's lines and scenes in an upcoming installment, the lore is pretty absolute without retcon.

No Protheans. They left a little room for collectors, they didn't leave any for protheans, unless they intend to rewrite sections they've already addressed. The lore doesn't support it. Opinion != codex/cutscenes and no amount of exegesial semantic pedantry can rewrite it from a fan point of view. Only BW can.

You have clearly missed the entire point of the thread. As always, there is nothing to prevent further Protheans from being found/cloned. Those hiding behind the thematic shield neglect to realize the possibility that would come from resurrecting an entire race (hi Rachni!) or saving/cloning them (howdy Krogan!). The emotion on Javik's face hearing about Ilos is clear. He doesn't want to be alone, but is practical enough to acknowlege and deal with it. To be honest, there weren't really long term avenues for the Rachni at first either, but Bioware still created them. I can think of plenty for the Protheans.

There is *nothing* about Javik's lines/story/thematic elements that would require even the slightest of retcons. Despite your proclimations, the lore supports it perfectly, especially considering we've already done it many times.

There is plenty to prevent cloning bringing more protheans, and Okeer's (collector tech that can't be replaced, hundreds of years of work) and the Krogan doctor on Virmire (reaper tech that can't be replaced, years of work and krazillions of credits) dialog says exactly why. Rachni and Protheans don't grow the same, nor do they share characteristics. Your ignoring of it doesn't make it go away, sorry.

[Pitznik]

LeandroBraz wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

jaDanger wrote...

Suddenly finding a bunch of stasis pods that we never noticed is equally unlikely.

As unlikely as on Ilos or as unlikely as on Eden Prime? They had lot of time to make a lot of preservation attempts, and it would be a smart thing to keep them separate. We're talking about galaxy here - plenty of unused space to hide stuff in.

But yeah, that would kill Javik's story, that is true.

the reapers sistematically destroyed the protheans. Illos only survived because it was hidden, but even hidden they ended dead because of energy. Javik survived because was only one, it's far rmore simple for a single stasis pod to be ignored by the reapers than a entire group...

So it is unlikely, but not impossible, no retconning needed. Searching whole galaxy, including deep space is beyond reapers abilities. Both Vigil and Javik have information from their time and their place, but Prothean Empire was huge, there could be more attempts to preserve the species, and some could be more succesful than those we know about. There is nothing in the lore making it impossible. I'm not saying that I want it, and that it would be a good choice storywise (even Javik's survival wasn't a good idea imho), but the possibility does exist.

[jaDanger]

ericjdev wrote...

They are coming eventually, the whole 'Phoenix' thing was just to gauge customer response/demand.

Lore doesn't matter in MP at all, just playability.

But it does matter to Bioware. They said they only wanted to add multiplayer if it could fit the story, and generally speaking it does. I don't think the multiplayer is meant to be viewed from the perspective of the community, but rather as individual players, so running into a justicar in your squad of 4 is plausible. As a matter of fact, having quarians on your team even if the quarians were wiped out is still plausible as quarians would be spread out for pilgrimages and the like. It just becomes more meamingful if you successfuly recruited them.
Thekingboar is missing the point of thematic resonance. Javik and the protheans had a story, and javik's conflictedness and resolution over the death of his race was central to it. The sacrifice of the protheans to aid a cycle they would never see was central to it. Javik was the avatar of that sacrifice, in addition to being the avatar of vengeance. Ressurecting the rachni wasn't a theme, it was a plot, and as interesting a plot as it was, it had its own questions and meanings. It has nothing to do with the themes of the Javik plot. Rachni were from this cycle. They do not represent the sacrifice of previous cycles. Theme and story are not "shields", they are what defines the franchise.

[eddieoctane]

"Conformity to lore" was BioWare's argument for not including a deathmatch multiplayer mode. Considering that, as well as the "phoenix" classes turning out to be recolors of existing models, I doubt EA is forcing them to do much of anything. Which is really damn odd. Letting BioWare do what it wants is destroying an IP and limiting profit. It's rather curious. If EA is turning over a new leaf, BioWare is officially shooting itself in the foot. Just some food for thought.

[Biotic_Warlock]

Dear OP.


No.

[TheKingBoar]

jaDanger wrote...

ericjdev wrote...

They are coming eventually, the whole 'Phoenix' thing was just to gauge customer response/demand.

Lore doesn't matter in MP at all, just playability.

But it does matter to Bioware. They said they only wanted to add multiplayer if it could fit the story, and generally speaking it does. I don't think the multiplayer is meant to be viewed from the perspective of the community, but rather as individual players, so running into a justicar in your squad of 4 is plausible. As a matter of fact, having quarians on your team even if the quarians were wiped out is still plausible as quarians would be spread out for pilgrimages and the like. It just becomes more meamingful if you successfuly recruited them.
Thekingboar is missing the point of thematic resonance. Javik and the protheans had a story, and javik's conflictedness and resolution over the death of his race was central to it. The sacrifice of the protheans to aid a cycle they would never see was central to it. Javik was the avatar of that sacrifice, in addition to being the avatar of vengeance. Ressurecting the rachni wasn't a theme, it was a plot, and as interesting a plot as it was, it had its own questions and meanings. It has nothing to do with the themes of the Javik plot. Rachni were from this cycle. They do not represent the sacrifice of previous cycles. Theme and story are not "shields", they are what defines the franchise.

I would argue in your case it's a shield. Again, nothing about there being more Prothean's damages Javik's storyline, especially if they take place well into his storyline. His story still has all it's power and can then switch to something else, a theme of rebuilding and rebirth. It would certainly fall on the least absurd things the franchise has done. The Prothean's goal was never to help the next cycle, it was to survive and dominate it. Javik wasn't just supposed to get vengance, he was to lead a new Prothean empire.

[Had-to-say]

Some sexbots like Edi for MP would be better.

[Lucius Aelius]

I think there's so much already in the story left unexplained (strange objects detected deep within at least two separate Gas Giants whose identity were never revealed, that planet with the Volus billionaire and his army of mercs searching for the key to salvation from the "machine devils" as told to him in a vision from what he took to be some kind of angel, the list goes on). And on top of that, Javik went pretty far out of his way to emphasize how the Protheans became totally disconnected and no one knew what the others were doing, just because he and everyone else don't know what all the other Protheans did is neither proof they did something or not, but what it is proof of is that an opening more than exists in the already established lore of the game to bring in a colony of surviving Protheans who live on and meant initially to hide from the Reapers (maybe in a gas giant...?) until along comes shepherd and Javik to convince them to join the fight. And what about that Memory Shard thing? Could hold a clue maybe for them to look for said colony of Protheans, or who knows what, but they certainly emphasized it a great deal for something they described as being worthless, and containing "only pain" if I remember correctly....

End point, it's not ludicrous to think it plausible Protheans could be fit into the lore seemlessly, but it is ludicrous to say for certain it couldn't be, the people who wrote the story will always choose to write it however they see fit, if you want to say you don't like it then fine, but who are any of us to say that something definitely can't happen, who know nothing of what they yet have in store for us? Maybe there will be Protheans, maybe not, I for one hope so. Either way, very nearly anything can happen, and anyone who doesn't realize that is deluding themselves.

[professor_chaos19]

DoctorEss wrote...

PossibleCabbage wrote...

I would prefer they didn't. I like the multiplayer to be consistent with single player lore. The Protheans are all dead, except for Javik. There's no huge cache of them where tens of thousands of people can play with them in multiplayer.

To be honest, I'd prefer they never even found one that was viable to unfreeze.

Prove there aren't any more frozen.

Prove no one can clone them, despite having living Prothean tissue available.

C'mon.  None of the anti-Prothean people can give one good reason.

i wonder, would javik allow himself to be cloned?

[Descy_]

professor_chaos19 wrote...

DoctorEss wrote...

PossibleCabbage wrote...

I would prefer they didn't. I like the multiplayer to be consistent with single player lore. The Protheans are all dead, except for Javik. There's no huge cache of them where tens of thousands of people can play with them in multiplayer.

To be honest, I'd prefer they never even found one that was viable to unfreeze.

Prove there aren't any more frozen.

Prove no one can clone them, despite having living Prothean tissue available.

C'mon.  None of the anti-Prothean people can give one good reason.

i wonder, would javik allow himself to be cloned?

Javik gets cloned, gets pissed at salarians for cloning him, goes to reapers for help, turns into collectors to start a REBELLION against those who cloned him.

BAM Collectors confirmed for Rebellion new Enemies.

[xtorma]

longest paragraphs ever.

[Rokayt]

Descy_ wrote...

professor_chaos19 wrote...

DoctorEss wrote...

PossibleCabbage wrote...

I would prefer they didn't. I like the multiplayer to be consistent with single player lore. The Protheans are all dead, except for Javik. There's no huge cache of them where tens of thousands of people can play with them in multiplayer.

To be honest, I'd prefer they never even found one that was viable to unfreeze.

Prove there aren't any more frozen.

Prove no one can clone them, despite having living Prothean tissue available.

C'mon.  None of the anti-Prothean people can give one good reason.

i wonder, would javik allow himself to be cloned?

Javik gets cloned, gets pissed at salarians for cloning him, goes to reapers for help, turns into collectors to start a REBELLION against those who cloned him.

BAM Collectors confirmed for Rebellion new Enemies.

This is like saying you didn't murder the three people in your dining room, they all had guns, and shot each other in the head in a triangle pattern at the exact same time.....

[GGW KillerTiger]

Zhuinden wrote...

Protheans don't make sense.

Let's just bring in green asari who can cast Dark Channel and then you'd have your "protheans".

Ex-erberus with biotic implants  don't make sense

Depending on players decisions other races don't make sense

Certain enemy/map combos make no sense

Get the point yet?

[blasto lives]

xtorma wrote...

longest paragraphs ever.

Especially since the argument is just:
1) Prothean assets (model, powers) are already on disc.
2)  (Some) Fans would really like Protheans.
3) ???
4) Profit

[Zaidra]

*doesn't have time to read that whole post*

just gonna throw this out there... no, it doesn't fit into the lore. Unless they came up with a single player DLC that has them finding more protheans (which will not happen, because they stated several times throughout the campaign that Javik is the last prothean) it just doesn't fit into the lore.

It is true that geth as enemies doesn't fit into the lore for some sp games, but it does with others, which makes that an invalid comparison.

Either way, there's no confirming that it will happen, so don't get your hopes up. 

Modifié par Zaidra, 25 mai 2012 - 12:22 .

[Descy_]

[quote]Rokayt wrote...

This is like saying you didn't murder the three people in your dining room, they all had guns, and shot each other in the head in a triangle pattern at the exact same time.....

[/quote]

Dude, my idea totally makes sense. Actually, time for revisions:

[quote]Descy_ wrote...



Javik gets cloned, gets pissed at salarians for cloning him, goes to reapers for help, turns into collectors to start a REBELLION against those who cloned him.

BAM Collectors confirmed for Rebellion new Enemies. Reapers send the Javik clones after Shepard, shepard gets killed in explosion on Normandy, TIM finds his body  ANNNNNNNNNNNND start ME2 all over again.


/genius writing
/WHADDATWIST

[professor_chaos19]

well to me atleast, i think it would be taking out the importance of javik and the tragedy of him being the last prothean