262 réponses à ce sujet

[Kaelef]

Opsrbest wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Why is that sad? Its awsome! Bioware wanted an ending that would never be forgotten and indoctrinating the player is anything short of masterpice! Also it means that the game is not over...Epilouge(means Final Chapter)!

Because in order to do it well or aptly in the way that you describe, Bioware would need to have done a much better job with the ending then what they did. While it will be one of the messiest developer, player interactions ever.

That's why it sad.

I agree.  If you're going to manipulate the player, you don't do it the way it was done in ME3 if IT is true.   It would only be a "masterpiece" if the game didn't end where ME3 ended (and even then, it would've been hard to pull off).

Modifié par Kaelef, 25 mai 2012 - 04:23 .

[Leafs43]

Kaelef wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Kaelef wrote... You don't have to edit my posts - you just have to quote me like you've been doing all along.  Quote where I've "disproved my own initial conclusion".  It should be pretty easy to do, no? 

 You admitted the catalyst is its own "thing" and not of Shepards doing 


Yet:

Kaelef wrote...

I always assumed the Catalyst's look was simply Shepard's interpretation - an image his brain chose, not one the Catalyst chose. 

You see?  There's more than one way to look at it.

I;m capable of keeping track of conversations.  

And yet you're incapable of reading.

Read that second sentence of mine that you quoted.

Read it carefully.

Let it soak in.

Let's make sure I have this right and there is no confusion:


-Shepard makes the catalyst's form up in his own mind
-The catalyst exists millions of years
-The catalyst has something like free will (to go and study the crucible every cycle; your words, not mine)
-the catalyst is incapable of taking its own form so has to assume a form shepard makes up
-Catalyst takes shepard's ideal form because its not an independant entity and has to rely on Shepard's projection



If you don't see where you contradict yourself, well I think this convesation is at a pass.

[Kaelef]

Leafs43 wrote...


Let's make sure I have this right and there is no confusion:


-Shepard makes the catalyst's form up in his own mind
-The catalyst exists millions of years
-The catalyst has something like free will (to go and study the crucible every cycle; your words, not mine)
-the catalyst is incapable of taking its own form so has to assume a form shepard makes up
-Catalyst takes shepard's ideal form because its not an independant entity and has to rely on Shepard's projection



If you don't see where you contradict yourself, well I think this convesation is at a pass.

No, you are doing the manipulating here, mister.  Either that or you're just jumping to conclusions (which you do quite a bit of).  You came up with those last two points all by yourself.

I contradict myself only in your own mind, thanks largely to additions you've made and conclusions you've jumped to in your own mind.

[dreman9999]

Kaelef wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1. It was obvious that Dr. Kenson. The warden in ME2. the AsariI merc and the bartarian bar tender were trying to deceive you?
2.Added, you don't note how he doesn't explain anything and has no proof of his claims.
3. Any you yet to ask why he looks like the child that died on earth.

1. Absolutely.
2. That's a problem with the writing.  It doesn't make him manipulative.
3. I don't ask that.  You ask that.

1.Right. so you know you were walkingin to a trap in arrival and the bartender was going to posin you with out spoilers.
2.The fact that he tells you synthesis is the best salution  makes him maniputive.
3. I meant to say"And you yet to ask why 
he looks like the child that died on earth. "
That means you haven't asked it yet.

1. Yes, I thought Arrival was painfully obvious, which is why I hated that DLC (and have written as much previously in this forum).  As for the bartender: of course something "unexpected" was going to happen.  Every time you're allowed to drink in the game it's a set-up for a plot moment or for a silly "getting drunk" moment.  It's not hidden or covert at all.
2.  We don't know that he lies to you at any point.
3.  I have said repeatedly that I think he may look like the child on Earth because Shepard is making that association, not because the Catalyst is imposing it.  Although, even if the Catalyst is imposing it, that doesn't make him "manipulative" in a negative sense.  Having the Big and Powerful Super Evolved Being make itself look like something comforting and harmless is an old sci-fi cliche. 

2. Evey point he made has no proof and is counter by everything shown in the game...That proof that he is using bs. He never gives you a stright awnser to why he is doing this and to his salutions.
3.And my question is why is Shepard mind doing that...Because the lsttime his mind did that wasin the geth concensus...Which he was in a dream like state. Their is no reason for his mind to make form for him his eyes can see.

[soulprovider]

soulprovider wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

soulprovider wrote...

It shows up as a kid, to me it in no way looks like the kid from Shepard's dreams, size and facial features are just too different.

I think the AI picked a human child from the databanks to use as a means to deter anger, think about how retail managers are taught to smile at a customer complaint because it disarms the customer's anger. Would anyone really scream or rage as the young. If anything the AI is trying to prevent shepard from doing anything hostile. But it does not look like the child from the beginning of the game.

It may use the same VO, but its already been established by tali's photo and the last epilogue scene that bioware cut a few corners.

You in so much denila it's not funny.

So? all that shows is that the engine is set for only one child becase only one child apparently exists in the mass effect universe, it still does not directly look like the kid, in fact that picture proves that it is too vague to look like the child directly, it just looks like a a respasted model,, bioware couldn't outright use the same model for their ending because it wouldn't create the speculations from everyone set up that mac walters was going for, so instead they had there designers copy and paste the model and make it translucent and shiny. This is cheaper and takes a few hours to do this. Infact altering a character is a common development technique used for game modders and up and coming game designers to populate a game world.

Point being until bioware confirms or denies the IT there will always be this stupid debate about whether we were sold a complete game(anti-IT) or an incomplete game(IT). Its like abortion vs prolife, until god comes down from the heavens and puts the discussion to rest there will always be a debate between the informed resaonable thinkers and the religious zealots who cannot see reason, the question becomes who's who and do both sides have them.

EDIT: needed to clarify a few points but no matter sure someone already posted and replyed to my post.

Gonna repost this, seems to have been ignored completely, the very person who claims me in denial also forgets his own denial that his argument may not stand.

[dreman9999]

Kaelef wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...


Let's make sure I have this right and there is no confusion:


-Shepard makes the catalyst's form up in his own mind
-The catalyst exists millions of years
-The catalyst has something like free will (to go and study the crucible every cycle; your words, not mine)
-the catalyst is incapable of taking its own form so has to assume a form shepard makes up
-Catalyst takes shepard's ideal form because its not an independant entity and has to rely on Shepard's projection



If you don't see where you contradict yourself, well I think this convesation is at a pass.

No, you are doing the manipulating here, mister.  Either that or you're just jumping to conclusions (which you do quite a bit of).  You came up with those last two points all by yourself.

I contradict myself only in your own mind, thanks largely to additions you've made and conclusions you've jumped to in your own mind.

I like to ask why Shepard mind is making this form and how you miss that the list time Shep's mind did anything like that was during the geth consensus, when hw was ina dream like state.

[KevShep]

Kaelef wrote...

Opsrbest wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Why is that sad? Its awsome! Bioware wanted an ending that would never be forgotten and indoctrinating the player is anything short of masterpice! Also it means that the game is not over...Epilouge(means Final Chapter)!

Because in order to do it well or aptly in the way that you describe, Bioware would need to have done a much better job with the ending then what they did. While it will be one of the messiest developer, player interactions ever.

That's why it sad.

I agree.  If you're going to manipulate the player, you don't do it the way it was done in ME3 if IT is true.   It would only be a "masterpiece" if the game didn't end where ME3 ended (and even then, it would've been hard to pull off).

Why would they indoctrinate us if they are going to just tell us at the end of ME3 that...surprise, your indoctrinate? They wanted us to speculate making it more interesting as well as giving them more time to finish the game for good. Bioware asked for 8 more months from EA and EA only gave them 2. It was the best option for bioware to do.

[Kaelef]

dreman9999 wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1. It was obvious that Dr. Kenson. The warden in ME2. the AsariI merc and the bartarian bar tender were trying to deceive you?
2.Added, you don't note how he doesn't explain anything and has no proof of his claims.
3. Any you yet to ask why he looks like the child that died on earth.

1. Absolutely.
2. That's a problem with the writing.  It doesn't make him manipulative.
3. I don't ask that.  You ask that.

1.Right. so you know you were walkingin to a trap in arrival and the bartender was going to posin you with out spoilers.
2.The fact that he tells you synthesis is the best salution  makes him maniputive.
3. I meant to say"And you yet to ask why 
he looks like the child that died on earth. "
That means you haven't asked it yet.

1. Yes, I thought Arrival was painfully obvious, which is why I hated that DLC (and have written as much previously in this forum).  As for the bartender: of course something "unexpected" was going to happen.  Every time you're allowed to drink in the game it's a set-up for a plot moment or for a silly "getting drunk" moment.  It's not hidden or covert at all.
2.  We don't know that he lies to you at any point.
3.  I have said repeatedly that I think he may look like the child on Earth because Shepard is making that association, not because the Catalyst is imposing it.  Although, even if the Catalyst is imposing it, that doesn't make him "manipulative" in a negative sense.  Having the Big and Powerful Super Evolved Being make itself look like something comforting and harmless is an old sci-fi cliche. 

2. Evey point he made has no proof and is counter by everything shown in the game...That proof that he is using bs. He never gives you a stright awnser to why he is doing this and to his salutions.
3.And my question is why is Shepard mind doing that...Because the lsttime his mind did that wasin the geth concensus...Which he was in a dream like state. Their is no reason for his mind to make form for him his eyes can see.

2. You have a tiny bit of conversation with him!  Yes, I agree he doesn't answer much of anything, but that doesn't mean he's trying to deceive you.  You're making assumptions.  You may be right, but you're making assumptions.

3. Well, let's see - he was practically dead when he fell in front of the console just before being raised up on the platform to the Catalyst.  That certainly has a tendancy to put you in a dream-like state.

Like I said: even if the Catalyst is intentionally projecting himself as a human child, that doesn't prove its intentions are to deceive.

Modifié par Kaelef, 25 mai 2012 - 04:35 .

[Leafs43]

Kaelef wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...


Let's make sure I have this right and there is no confusion:


-Shepard makes the catalyst's form up in his own mind
-The catalyst exists millions of years
-The catalyst has something like free will (to go and study the crucible every cycle; your words, not mine)
-the catalyst is incapable of taking its own form so has to assume a form shepard makes up
-Catalyst takes shepard's ideal form because its not an independant entity and has to rely on Shepard's projection



If you don't see where you contradict yourself, well I think this convesation is at a pass.

No, you are doing the manipulating here, mister.  Either that or you're just jumping to conclusions (which you do quite a bit of).  You came up with those last two points all by yourself.

I contradict myself only in your own mind, thanks largely to additions you've made and conclusions you've jumped to in your own mind.

I'm not jumping to any conclusions.  Because the forum has a crappy multi-quote system is the only reason why I don't just quote all yourstuff.


But this is the synopsis of your thoughts from page 5 to now.



Like I said, you're all over the place.

[dreman9999]

soulprovider wrote...

soulprovider wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

soulprovider wrote...

It shows up as a kid, to me it in no way looks like the kid from Shepard's dreams, size and facial features are just too different.

I think the AI picked a human child from the databanks to use as a means to deter anger, think about how retail managers are taught to smile at a customer complaint because it disarms the customer's anger. Would anyone really scream or rage as the young. If anything the AI is trying to prevent shepard from doing anything hostile. But it does not look like the child from the beginning of the game.

It may use the same VO, but its already been established by tali's photo and the last epilogue scene that bioware cut a few corners.

You in so much denila it's not funny.

So? all that shows is that the engine is set for only one child becase only one child apparently exists in the mass effect universe, it still does not directly look like the kid, in fact that picture proves that it is too vague to look like the child directly, it just looks like a a respasted model,, bioware couldn't outright use the same model for their ending because it wouldn't create the speculations from everyone set up that mac walters was going for, so instead they had there designers copy and paste the model and make it translucent and shiny. This is cheaper and takes a few hours to do this. Infact altering a character is a common development technique used for game modders and up and coming game designers to populate a game world.

Point being until bioware confirms or denies the IT there will always be this stupid debate about whether we were sold a complete game(anti-IT) or an incomplete game(IT). Its like abortion vs prolife, until god comes down from the heavens and puts the discussion to rest there will always be a debate between the informed resaonable thinkers and the religious zealots who cannot see reason, the question becomes who's who and do both sides have them.

EDIT: needed to clarify a few points but no matter sure someone already posted and replyed to my post.

Gonna repost this, seems to have been ignored completely, the very person who claims me in denial also forgets his own denial that his argument may not stand.

I'm sorry but I'm not the one who doesn't sees the fact TIM is controling Shepard and Anderson with indcotrinationat the end of the game of proof the Shepard was indoctrianted. Nor am I the one not seeing that he is facing a race of machine with a history of great deception.

[dreman9999]

Kaelef wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1. It was obvious that Dr. Kenson. The warden in ME2. the AsariI merc and the bartarian bar tender were trying to deceive you?
2.Added, you don't note how he doesn't explain anything and has no proof of his claims.
3. Any you yet to ask why he looks like the child that died on earth.

1. Absolutely.
2. That's a problem with the writing.  It doesn't make him manipulative.
3. I don't ask that.  You ask that.

1.Right. so you know you were walkingin to a trap in arrival and the bartender was going to posin you with out spoilers.
2.The fact that he tells you synthesis is the best salution  makes him maniputive.
3. I meant to say"And you yet to ask why 
he looks like the child that died on earth. "
That means you haven't asked it yet.

1. Yes, I thought Arrival was painfully obvious, which is why I hated that DLC (and have written as much previously in this forum).  As for the bartender: of course something "unexpected" was going to happen.  Every time you're allowed to drink in the game it's a set-up for a plot moment or for a silly "getting drunk" moment.  It's not hidden or covert at all.
2.  We don't know that he lies to you at any point.
3.  I have said repeatedly that I think he may look like the child on Earth because Shepard is making that association, not because the Catalyst is imposing it.  Although, even if the Catalyst is imposing it, that doesn't make him "manipulative" in a negative sense.  Having the Big and Powerful Super Evolved Being make itself look like something comforting and harmless is an old sci-fi cliche. 

2. Evey point he made has no proof and is counter by everything shown in the game...That proof that he is using bs. He never gives you a stright awnser to why he is doing this and to his salutions.
3.And my question is why is Shepard mind doing that...Because the lsttime his mind did that wasin the geth concensus...Which he was in a dream like state. Their is no reason for his mind to make form for him his eyes can see.

2. You have a tiny bit of conversation with him!  Yes, I agree he doesn't answer much of anything, but that doesn't mean he's trying to deceive you.  You're making assumptions.  You may be right, but you're making assumptions.
3. Well, let's see - he was practically dead when he fell in front of the console just before being raised up on the platform to the Catalyst.  That certainly has a tendancy to put you in a dream-like state.

2.How am I making assumptions when none of the option the star child gives to me solves the problem he brings up?
3. Sorry, Is there proof Shepard woke up?

Modifié par dreman9999, 25 mai 2012 - 04:35 .

[Kaelef]

Leafs43 wrote...


I'm not jumping to any conclusions.  Because the forum has a crappy multi-quote system is the only reason why I don't just quote all yourstuff.


But this is the synopsis of your thoughts from page 5 to now.



Like I said, you're all over the place.

Wow.  I've never seen anyone blame the quoting system for not being able to make their point.  Just admit you're wrong about this and let it go.  Geeze.

[Kaelef]

dreman9999 wrote...

2.How am I making assumptions when none of the option the star child gives to me solves the problem he brings up?
3. Sorry, Is there proof Shepard woke up?

2. So when you aren't given helpful information, you assume the person is deceiving you?

3. No, there isn't.  Doesn't help you prove your point, though.

[dreamgazer]

I don't understand what happened in this thread. Will it improve with migraine medicine?

[Kaelef]

dreamgazer wrote...

I don't understand what happened in this thread. Will it improve with migraine medicine?

Probably not.  I spent half the time just trying to figure out what it was I was responding to.

[kookie28]

Oh cool. This again.

[dreman9999]

Kaelef wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

2.How am I making assumptions when none of the option the star child gives to me solves the problem he brings up?
3. Sorry, Is there proof Shepard woke up?

2. So when you aren't given helpful information, you assume the person is deceiving you?

3. No, there isn't.  Doesn't help you prove your point, though.

2. If they are with my enemy and has ahistory of making plans of deceving me...Trust is always an issue. When someone give me salutions that don't solve my problemsin any way, shape or form....The though a deception is a wise one.
3.Justpointing out you opening a can of worms with the way your going. My point is there is not reason for his mind to make some new form for his eyes and if thatis the case then noth Shepard sees can be trusted. We don't even knowif he woke up. Let not for get the TIM was controling Shepard with indoctriantion moments earlier, what to say the reaper did try to us indoctriantion is a new tactic. Based on what your saying...Shepard is Hallucinating.

Modifié par dreman9999, 25 mai 2012 - 04:56 .

[xsdob]

SPIDERMAN PONY JOINT OPERATION IS A - GO!

[Lord Jaric]

Or we just take the ending for what it is and don't accept an unconfirmed fan theory.

[Kaelef]

dreman9999 wrote...

2. If they are with my enemy and has ahistory of making plans of deceving me...Trust is always an issue. When someone give me salutions that don't solve my problemsin any way, shape or form....The though a deception is a wise one.

I don't think the Catalyst is trying to deceive Shepard.  BW doesn't present the character that way.  Maybe you're right, but if you are, then it's another case of bad writing.

3.Justpointing out you opening a can of worms with the way your going. My point is there is not reason for his mind to make some new form for his eyes and if thatis the case then noth Shepard sees can be trusted. We don't even knowif he woke up. Let not for get the TIM was controling Shepard with indoctriantion moments earlier, what to say the reaper did try to us indoctriantion is a new tactic. Based on what your saying...Shepard is Hallucinating.

He could be hallucianting, but that's not the way I interpreted the scene.  You asked if there was proof that he woke up, and there is no proof that he woke up.  The last five minutes of the game could all be happening in "heaven".  (Though, again, that is not what I think was happening.)

I proposed that Shepard could be creating an image for the Catalyst where there is no vision that we could (easily) interpret.  Just as when we hear and understand the messages left by the Protheans, we are hearing Shepard's interpretation of those messages, not the original, meaningless sounds.

I think it's ironic that an IT believer wants to stick with a literal interpretation of what we see in the game.

Modifié par Kaelef, 25 mai 2012 - 05:09 .

[Kaelef]

Lord Jaric wrote...

Or we just take the ending for what it is and don't accept an unconfirmed fan theory.

What, are you insane?!

[dreman9999]

Kaelef wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

2. If they are with my enemy and has ahistory of making plans of deceving me...Trust is always an issue. When someone give me salutions that don't solve my problemsin any way, shape or form....The though a deception is a wise one.

I don't think the Catalyst is trying to deceive Shepard.  BW doesn't present the character that way.  Maybe you're right, but if you are, then it's another case of bad writing.

3.Justpointing out you opening a can of worms with the way your going. My point is there is not reason for his mind to make some new form for his eyes and if thatis the case then noth Shepard sees can be trusted. We don't even knowif he woke up. Let not for get the TIM was controling Shepard with indoctriantion moments earlier, what to say the reaper did try to us indoctriantion is a new tactic. Based on what your saying...Shepard is Hallucinating.

He could be hallucianting, but that's not the way I interpreted the scene.  You asked if there was proof that he woke up, and there is no proof that he woke up.  The last five minutes of the game could all be happening in "heaven".  (Though, again, that is not what I think was happening.)

I proposed that Shepard could be creating an image for the Catalyst where there is no vision that we could (easily) interpret.  Just as when we hear and understand the messages left by the Protheans, we are hearing Shepard's interpretation of those messages, not the original, meaningless sounds.

I think it's ironic that an IT believer wants to stick with a literal interpretation of what we see in the game.

1. How is it bad writing to follow something like"don't trust the reapers" that has been astablished?
2.If Shepard's mind is making the image...He is hallucinating...That's what Hallucinations are.

3. The think is jumping into a topic and just saying it's a dream doesn't cut it to provr the arguement. To prove it, all levels of theperseption of the ending must be argued. I don't beleive everything in the end is real, but I'm argueing on the basis that it is real to point out that something is wrong even if it is real.

[Kaelef]

dreman9999 wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

2. If they are with my enemy and has ahistory of making plans of deceving me...Trust is always an issue. When someone give me salutions that don't solve my problemsin any way, shape or form....The though a deception is a wise one.

I don't think the Catalyst is trying to deceive Shepard.  BW doesn't present the character that way.  Maybe you're right, but if you are, then it's another case of bad writing.

3.Justpointing out you opening a can of worms with the way your going. My point is there is not reason for his mind to make some new form for his eyes and if thatis the case then noth Shepard sees can be trusted. We don't even knowif he woke up. Let not for get the TIM was controling Shepard with indoctriantion moments earlier, what to say the reaper did try to us indoctriantion is a new tactic. Based on what your saying...Shepard is Hallucinating.

He could be hallucianting, but that's not the way I interpreted the scene.  You asked if there was proof that he woke up, and there is no proof that he woke up.  The last five minutes of the game could all be happening in "heaven".  (Though, again, that is not what I think was happening.)

I proposed that Shepard could be creating an image for the Catalyst where there is no vision that we could (easily) interpret.  Just as when we hear and understand the messages left by the Protheans, we are hearing Shepard's interpretation of those messages, not the original, meaningless sounds.

I think it's ironic that an IT believer wants to stick with a literal interpretation of what we see in the game.

1. How is it bad writing to follow something like"don't trust the reapers" that has been astablished?
2.If Shepard's mind is making the image...He is hallucinating...That's what Hallucinations are.

3. The think is jumping into a topic and just saying it's a dream doesn't cut it to provr the arguement. To prove it, all levels of theperseption of the ending must be argued. I don't beleive everything in the end is real, but I'm argueing on the basis that it is real to point out that something is wrong even if it is real.

1. Because the character of the "lies" you say the Catalyst is presenting us with is distinctly different from any manipulation the Reapers ever attempt.

2. Shepard's mind also made the vision and sound of the Promethean messages we saw and heard.  The other characters didn't see or hear the same thing.  You're saying those were hallucinations, too.

3. Sorry, I couldn't understand what you tried to say here.

Modifié par Kaelef, 25 mai 2012 - 05:27 .

[Hanabii]

jsadalia wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

Even if he isn't a reaper, how does he have access to Sheps memories? Seems mighty suspicious that the same kid we dream about (no pedo) is the same one that shows up at the end to pursuade us. If there was no talking catalyst at the end, 99.999% of us would have chose 'destroy'.

If there was no talking Catalyst, none of us would have had a clue which one the Destroy option even was.

We all know if Shepard wouldn't have met the Catalyst, with nothing up there but himself, his gun, and a bunch of parts, that he/she'd have started shooting crap.

Or maybe not, the Catalyst is supposed to be your weapon, not the thing you destroy. At least Pre-Phantasmo-boy.

[Lord Jaric]

Kaelef wrote...

Lord Jaric wrote...

Or we just take the ending for what it is and don't accept an unconfirmed fan theory.

What, are you insane?!

I'm not one of those people that refuses to accept a canon element to a story just because I didn't like it.