262 réponses à ce sujet

[Alien1099]

Leafs43 wrote...

Alien1099 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

 The mere fact that you accept the catalysts existence means you acknowledge the reapers at minimum are reading Shepard's mind.

How else does the catalyst show up as the child from his dreams and the beginning of the game?  Would be quite the coincidence.

It's clear to me that you have been indoctrinated by the indoctrinists to make you think everybody else is indoctrinated but its actually you who's lost the ability to make sense of anything.

Again you are open to express your logical reason why the catalyst turns out to be the kid that only Shepard saw.


feel free to attempt mental gymnastics all you want.

I approach it scientifically. This is what we know right now. It's ****, but that's the way it is until they maybe change it. You theory people read way too much into stuff and want to explain away the crappy ending with your crappy theory.

Personally I wish they would scrap the whole ending and admit they screwed up and aren't happy with the way it turned out either. That would require integrity and money though. Money is probably the bigger factor, so they won't do that.

Modifié par Alien1099, 25 mai 2012 - 12:23 .

[Aaleel]

Leafs43 wrote...

Context is important.

Shepard didn't know about the catalyst but has thought about destroying the reapers.  

How would shepard thought about destroying the catalyst if the catalyst wasn't a reaper?


Context, context, context.


The catalyst also he admits he controls the reapers.  And its explicit control, hence the control option given to Shepard.


The catalyst is a reaper.

When Shepard is talking to Sovereign he says there is an entire galaxy of races untied to stop you, we'll stop you.  This doesn't mean everyone is the same race just because he said we. 

If Shepard says you're here to destroy us, does that mean everyone is one race now, or just one group with a common cause?  The catalyst and the reapers are just one group with a common cause, to continue the cycle.  Doesn't mean the catalyst is a reaper.

[Taboo]

You sound like a religious zealot.

Wow.

[alec1898]

Baa Baa wrote...

masseffect420 wrote...

The kid is real but he's a VI. He's Trying to mind rape Shepard very hard.

This indeed
Mindrape you say? The catalyst is actually.......

God that would be awful....

Now you see your ending...

*Vroosh*

Now you don't.

[Leafs43]

Alien1099 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Alien1099 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

 The mere fact that you accept the catalysts existence means you acknowledge the reapers at minimum are reading Shepard's mind.

How else does the catalyst show up as the child from his dreams and the beginning of the game?  Would be quite the coincidence.

It's clear to me that you have been indoctrinated by the indoctrinists to make you think everybody else is indoctrinated but its actually you who's lost the ability to make sense of anything.

Again you are open to express your logical reason why the catalyst turns out to be the kid that only Shepard saw.


feel free to attempt mental gymnastics all you want.

I approach it scientifically. This is what we know right now. It's ****, but that's the way it is until they maybe change it. You theory people read way too much into stuff and want to explain away the crappy ending with your crappy theory.

Personally I wish they would scrap the whole ending and admit they screwed up and aren't happy with the way it turned out either. That would require integrity and money though. Money is probably the bigger factor, so they won't do that.

So you have no answer about it then?

[Joe Del Toro]

Meatus wrote...

Joe Del Toro wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

jsadalia wrote...

The catalyst is not a reaper. We don't know what it is.

The catlyst is a reaper.

In his 14 lines of dialog he uses pluralities when dressing himself and the reapers.

"We know you have though about destroying us."

Those can still be two different things. If I'm referring to myself and two female friends as 'we' that doesn't make me a girl too.

Context clues.

You don't believe IT, and I don't believe you have female friends. I think we can agree to disagree.

It may be because it's nearly half 1 in the morning here, but I have no goddamn clue what you mean by this.

I don't necessarily disbelieve IT. I've said that a few times. I just think the logic being used here is really, really sketchy and it's one of the reasons I'm being put off the idea of IT every damn day is because I would hate to see some of the smug bastards promoting it actually end up being right.

[eddieoctane]

jsadalia wrote...

The catalyst is not a reaper. We don't know what it is.

The Catalyst is definitely tied to Reaper tech. That much is certain.

If it's not an AI/VI that can read Shep's mind to manipulate him, then the Catalyst is a supernatural entity. At that point, I have to inquire as to what prevents the Catalyst from just preventing people from thinking about building synthetics in the first place.

[jsadalia]

Leafs43 wrote...

jsadalia wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

jsadalia wrote...

The catalyst is not a reaper. We don't know what it is.

The catlyst is a reaper.

In his 14 lines of dialog he uses pluralities when addressing himself and the reapers.

"We know you have though about destroying us."

A man and a woman are in a restaurant.  "We'd like a booth, please," says the man.

By your logic he's a woman.

Context is important.

Shepard didn't know about the catalyst but has thought about destroying the reapers.  

How would shepard thought about destroying the catalyst if the catalyst wasn't a reaper?


Context, context, context.


The catalyst also he admits he controls the reapers.  And its explicit control, hence the control option given to Shepard.


The catalyst is a reaper.

Also says, "I control the reapers. They are my solution."  There's a clear but unstable distinction: obviously there's a close relationship between Catalyst and Reapers.  The kid switches between "I" and "we" quite often.

But it's not a Reaper. 
"I control the reapers. They are my solution" clearly indicates it either preceded or coopted them.

[Leafs43]

Taboo-XX wrote...

You sound like a religious zealot.

Wow.

Actually I fashion myself out of someone who pursues the truth.


And I can assume because you are using an ad hominem you really have no rebuttal.

[Leafs43]

jsadalia wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

jsadalia wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

jsadalia wrote...

The catalyst is not a reaper. We don't know what it is.

The catlyst is a reaper.

In his 14 lines of dialog he uses pluralities when addressing himself and the reapers.

"We know you have though about destroying us."

A man and a woman are in a restaurant.  "We'd like a booth, please," says the man.

By your logic he's a woman.

Context is important.

Shepard didn't know about the catalyst but has thought about destroying the reapers.  

How would shepard thought about destroying the catalyst if the catalyst wasn't a reaper?


Context, context, context.


The catalyst also he admits he controls the reapers.  And its explicit control, hence the control option given to Shepard.


The catalyst is a reaper.

Also says, "I control the reapers. They are my solution."  There's a clear but unstable distinction: obviously there's a close relationship between Catalyst and Reapers.  The kid switches between "I" and "we" quite often.

But it's not a Reaper. 
"I control the reapers. They are my solution" clearly indicates it either preceded or coopted them.

He also says Shepard can control the reapers.

That means there is definite control.

[xsdob]

I always thought it was a kid because the crucible caused a rebirth in the catalyst and that it's now looking towards shepard for guidance. And depending on the ems it will either hate or not mind the change, as indicated by the dialogue between the two.

[shepskisaac]

jsadalia wrote...

But it's not a Reaper. 
"I control the reapers. They are my solution" clearly indicates it either preceded or coopted them.

(before I begin, I will just say that I'm absolutely not an IT supporter) That doesn't mean Reapers design/idea is not based on him, or similar to him. It is not confirmed officially, but it does seem that it was Bioware's intention. First there's the fact that he indeed reffers to himself and Reapers as 'we' many times. Then there's this from the game's files (from NameTable):
10997 = "EGO_BecomeAReaperAndEarthDestroyedAndReapersLeave"
10998 = "EGO_BecomeAReaperAndEarthOkAndReapersLeave"
11000 = "EGO_HarmonyOfManAndMachine"
11003 = "EGO_ReapersDestroyedEarthDestroyed"
11004 = "EGO_ReapersDestroyedEarthDevastated"
11005 = "EGO_ReapersDestroyedEarthOk"
11006 = "EGO_ReapersDestroyedEarthOkShepardAlive"

If Shep becomes the new Catalyst in control ending and in-game files call it becoming a Reapr as well, then it would mean the Catalyst is a some kind of a Reaper too.

There's a possibility this was just an abandoned idea and the Catalyst in the final story is not a Reaper but that's just speculation without even smallest clue

Modifié par IsaacShep, 25 mai 2012 - 12:32 .

[LucasShark]

Leafs43 wrote...

jsadalia wrote...

The catalyst is not a reaper. We don't know what it is.

The catlyst is a reaper.

In his 14 lines of dialog he uses pluralities when addressing himself and the reapers.

"We know you have though about destroying us."

Funny... considering Sovreign himself uses "I".

[xsdob]

LucasShark wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

jsadalia wrote...

The catalyst is not a reaper. We don't know what it is.

The catlyst is a reaper.

In his 14 lines of dialog he uses pluralities when addressing himself and the reapers.

"We know you have though about destroying us."

Funny... considering Sovreign himself uses "I".

Well soverigen is probably a soverigen reaper, seperate from the catalsyt control and self-governing, hence the name.

[jsadalia]

Leafs43 wrote...

Alien1099 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

 The mere fact that you accept the catalysts existence means you acknowledge the reapers at minimum are reading Shepard's mind.

How else does the catalyst show up as the child from his dreams and the beginning of the game?  Would be quite the coincidence.

It's clear to me that you have been indoctrinated by the indoctrinists to make you think everybody else is indoctrinated but its actually you who's lost the ability to make sense of anything.

Again you are open to express your logical reason why the catalyst turns out to be the kid that only Shepard saw.


feel free to attempt mental gymnastics all you want.

Clearly Shepard's mind was being read. Whatever the Catalyst is, it can do this.  Perhaps Reapers can too (although I seem to recall they can only do this with an already-indoctrinated subject--I could be wrong).

But again, the Catalyst is not a Reaper.

[LucasShark]

Leafs43 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

You sound like a religious zealot.

Wow.

Actually I fashion myself out of someone who pursues the truth.


And I can assume because you are using an ad hominem you really have no rebuttal.

BS: you cannot "persue the truth" if you start with what you "know" to be correct.

[Malanek]

Leafs43 wrote...

 The mere fact that you accept the catalysts existence means you acknowledge the reapers at minimum are reading Shepard's mind.

How else does the catalyst show up as the child from his dreams and the beginning of the game?  Would be quite the coincidence.

I'm not an anti-iter but it doesn't have to be reading shepards mind. It could simply be how shepard perceives the entity. Eye of the beholder.

[Taboo]

Leafs43 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

You sound like a religious zealot.

Wow.

Actually I fashion myself out of someone who pursues the truth.


And I can assume because you are using an ad hominem you really have no rebuttal.

Quote a few people have said the same thing.

You pursue nothing.

You grasp at air, or dreams, or whatever you guys are doing now.

[LucasShark]

xsdob wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

jsadalia wrote...

The catalyst is not a reaper. We don't know what it is.

The catlyst is a reaper.

In his 14 lines of dialog he uses pluralities when addressing himself and the reapers.

"We know you have though about destroying us."

Funny... considering Sovreign himself uses "I".

Well soverigen is probably a soverigen reaper, seperate from the catalsyt control and self-governing, hence the name.

"Each of us is a nation, independant" - Sovreign. 

[hoodaticus]

ashwind wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

 The mere fact that you accept the catalysts existence means you acknowledge the reapers at minimum are reading Shepard's mind.

How else does the catalyst show up as the child from his dreams and the beginning of the game?  Would be quite the coincidence.

The mere fact that ITer cannot comprehend the catalyst shows how shallow their thought process are. 

Interesting notion.  To turn it into an argument that can be discussed and maybe persuade, continue your sentence with a comma, the word "because", and then the reason why we should believe ITer's thought processes are more shallow than your vast narcissian intellect.

Modifié par hoodaticus, 25 mai 2012 - 12:37 .

[jsadalia]

IsaacShep wrote...

jsadalia wrote...

But it's not a Reaper. 
"I control the reapers. They are my solution" clearly indicates it either preceded or coopted them.

(before I begin, I will just say that I'm absolutely not an IT supporter) That doesn't mean Reapers design/idea is not based on him, or similar to him. It is not confirmed officially, but it does seem that it was Bioware's intention. First there's the fact that he indeed reffers to himself and Reapers as 'we' many times. Then there's this from the game's files (from NameTable):
10997 = "EGO_BecomeAReaperAndEarthDestroyedAndReapersLeave"
10998 = "EGO_BecomeAReaperAndEarthOkAndReapersLeave"
11000 = "EGO_HarmonyOfManAndMachine"
11003 = "EGO_ReapersDestroyedEarthDestroyed"
11004 = "EGO_ReapersDestroyedEarthDevastated"
11005 = "EGO_ReapersDestroyedEarthOk"
11006 = "EGO_ReapersDestroyedEarthOkShepardAlive"

If Shep becomes the new Catalyst in control ending and in-game files call it becoming a Reapr as well, then it would mean the Catalyst is a some kind of a Reaper too.

There's a possibility this was just an abandoned idea and the Catalyst in the final story is not a Reaper but that's just speculation without even smallest clue

"The Reapers will obey me" is a long way from becoming the new Catalyst. Again, we don't know what that thing is, whether it has function or identity beyond controlling Reapers.

[Funkdrspot]

Even if he isn't a reaper, how does he have access to Sheps memories? Seems mighty suspicious that the same kid we dream about (no pedo) is the same one that shows up at the end to pursuade us. If there was no talking catalyst at the end, 99.999% of us would have chose 'destroy'.

[dreamgazer]

jsadalia wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

jsadalia wrote...

The catalyst is not a reaper. We don't know what it is.

The catlyst is a reaper.

In his 14 lines of dialog he uses pluralities when addressing himself and the reapers.

"We know you have though about destroying us."

A man and a woman are in a restaurant.  "We'd like a booth, please," says the man.

By your logic he's a woman.

True, but "we'd" implies that the man and woman are a collective unit to be acknowledged.  

"We" and "us" implies that they're aligned in the same group that will be destroyed. Shepard hasn't ever thought about destroying the catalyst, so saying that s/he has thought about destroying "us" lumps the catalyst in with the Reapers.  It's not saying that the catalyst necessarily IS a Reaper, but the process of destroying the Reapers as a collective would include the catalyst.  

[OblivionDawn]

Of course they're messing with Shepard's head, they've been doing that since ME2.

What they didn't do is create an elaborate reality in Shepard's head to test him or whatever.

[LucasShark]

Funkdrspot wrote...

Even if he isn't a reaper, how does he have access to Sheps memories? Seems mighty suspicious that the same kid we dream about (no pedo) is the same one that shows up at the end to pursuade us. If there was no talking catalyst at the end, 99.999% of us would have chose 'destroy'.

Prothean beacons could interface with the mind of the user, there's just one example of things other than reapers which can muck with minds in the ME'verse.