262 réponses à ce sujet

[jsadalia]

dreamgazer wrote...

True, but "we'd" implies that the man and woman are a collective unit to be acknowledged.  

"We" and "us" implies that they're aligned in the same group that will be destroyed. Shepard hasn't ever thought about destroying the catalyst, so saying that s/he has thought about destroying "us" lumps the catalyst in with the Reapers.  It's not saying that the catalyst necessarily IS a Reaper, but the process of destroying the Reapers as a collective would include the catalyst.  

I agree. They are clearly intimately connected, probably through whatever means by which the Catalyst controls the Reapers.

[shepskisaac]

LucasShark wrote...

"Each of us is a nation, independant" - Sovreign. 

And this line is something people use all the time to defend "how amazing Reapers were in ME1/ME2" and how "StarKid ruined them" which baffles me completly. "Each of us a nation, independent, free of all weaknesses". How come a race full of such super intelligent independent individuals would be all in complete agreement over their cycle/annihilation plans? No inner conflicts, no rougue Reapers, no outsiders, no factions, nothing. Dumbest race of independent individuals ever. And we're talking about a race that's suppousedly made up of various different races in the first place, all from different eras with different perspectives and views and whatnot. Ironically, Catalyst's control saves the Reapers. At least there's a reason now for why they're so stupidly united in their goals despite being so different.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 25 mai 2012 - 12:45 .

[jsadalia]

Funkdrspot wrote...

Even if he isn't a reaper, how does he have access to Sheps memories? Seems mighty suspicious that the same kid we dream about (no pedo) is the same one that shows up at the end to pursuade us. If there was no talking catalyst at the end, 99.999% of us would have chose 'destroy'.

If there was no talking Catalyst, none of us would have had a clue which one the Destroy option even was.

[shepskisaac]

jsadalia wrote...

"The Reapers will obey me" is a long way from becoming the new Catalyst

Yet there seems (to developers) to be a very short way from this to Shep becoming a Reaper himself. This they did explicitly write in game's files. Reaper controlling other Reapers...

[Leafs43]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

You sound like a religious zealot.

Wow.

Actually I fashion myself out of someone who pursues the truth.


And I can assume because you are using an ad hominem you really have no rebuttal.

Quote a few people have said the same thing.

You pursue nothing.

You grasp at air, or dreams, or whatever you guys are doing now.

Feel free to explain how the catalyst shows up as the kid.

I'll extend to you what I extend everyone else, mental gymnastics.

If you can come up with a plausible explanation within the context of the game, I'll give it an honest look.



Nobody in this thread has even touched the crux of the argument.  So if you fancy yourself smarter, give it a whirl.

Modifié par Leafs43, 25 mai 2012 - 01:04 .

[OchreJelly]

As far as I can recall at the moment, based on the leaked documents and stuff, early on they labeled control as Shep becoming the Catalyst. Correct me if I'm wrong, of course. That doesn't mean anything in particular because it's not stated now, but it's possibly to see how that could be the case still.

As for the OP, I'm rather put-off by this 'anti/pro' business. 'Anti' implies actively working against something rather than simply not agreeing. There's a world of difference between the terms.

Modifié par OchreJelly, 25 mai 2012 - 01:07 .

[Leafs43]

OchreJelly wrote...

As far as I can recall at the moment, the original intent based on the leaked documents and stuff, early on theylabeled control as Shep becoming the Catalyst. Correct me if I'm wrong, of course. That doesn't mean anything in particular because it's not stated now, but it's possibly to see how that could be the case.

As for the OP, I'm rather put-off by this 'anti/pro' business. 'Anti' implies actively working against something rather than simply not agreeing. There's a world of difference between the terms.

Many of the "anti-s" actually don't like IT out of pure spite.


That is pretty much grinding in the heels and trying to work against it.


But this thread really isn't about IT.  It's about the vacancy of IT in fact.  

It's kind of like asking fundamental christians who don't believe in evolution to explain why there are different races of people.

Modifié par Leafs43, 25 mai 2012 - 01:08 .

[OdanUrr]

What is the purpose of this thread, I wonder?

Modifié par OdanUrr, 25 mai 2012 - 01:08 .

[hoodaticus]

OdanUrr wrote...

What is the purpose of this thread, I wonder?

Probably to bring to light the facts mentioned by the OP.

Derp.

Modifié par hoodaticus, 25 mai 2012 - 01:10 .

[Taboo]

It's called bad writing and imitation.

The Catalyst resembles The Architect from The Matrix.

It's just bad.

THAT BAD.

[Leafs43]

OdanUrr wrote...

What is the purpose of this thread, I wonder?

It's to come to an understanding that the reapers, regardless of IT or not, are manipulating Shepard's brain.


Whether or not that makes the leap to IT easier is up to the reader.

[Leafs43]

Taboo-XX wrote...

It's called bad writing and imitation.

The Catalyst resembles The Architect from The Matrix.

It's just bad.

THAT BAD.

Every phase of the game with you is "bad writing" or "continuity errors".


It's like Bioware didn;t do anything right.

Modifié par Leafs43, 25 mai 2012 - 01:12 .

[LucasShark]

Leafs43 wrote...

Many of the "anti-s" actually don't like IT out of pure spite.


That is pretty much grinding in the heels and trying to work against it.


But this thread really isn't about IT.  It's about the vacancy of IT in fact.  

It's kind of like asking fundamental christians who don't believe in evolution to explain why there are different races of people.

Pot calling the kettle black much?

Funny how it is the group using the assertion fallacy (the ITers) who are calling the others "fundamentalist".  Do you see no irony here?

You've already used two arguments I reckognize from creationits, see the "My conclusion is right and you know it", and the "I seek truth" despite starting with a conclusion idiocy.

[jsadalia]

Leafs43 wrote...

OchreJelly wrote...

As far as I can recall at the moment, the original intent based on the leaked documents and stuff, early on theylabeled control as Shep becoming the Catalyst. Correct me if I'm wrong, of course. That doesn't mean anything in particular because it's not stated now, but it's possibly to see how that could be the case.

As for the OP, I'm rather put-off by this 'anti/pro' business. 'Anti' implies actively working against something rather than simply not agreeing. There's a world of difference between the terms.

Many of the "anti-s" actually don't like IT out of pure spite.


That is pretty much grinding in the heels and trying to work against it.


But this thread really isn't about IT.  It's about the vacancy of IT in fact.  

It's kind of like asking fundamental christians who don't believe in evolution to explain why there are different races of people.

The fact that you think your argument in this thread has supporting evidence equivalent to evolution is...staggering.

[TODD9999]

The Catalyst isn't projecting itself, it's striking Shepard with a barrage of light and sound waves formatted in such a way to cause him to see and hear a figure he associates with the trauma and loss of the war. Since Shepard has no choice but to see the kid in this light, the kid is what he sees and hears, but it's all an illusion.

No mind-reading required, and we know the Reapers make extensive use of light and sound manipulation (from which we get indoctrination).

That's what I think, but hey. Speculation for everyone. Is the Catalyst reading Shepard's mind? Is it using highly advanced sensors to interpret his brain waves and present him with the kid? Is there a difference between the preceding two ideas? Is the whole scene a figment of Shepard's imagination? Was the scene written poorly and the audience wasn't expected to ask why the Catalyst was appearing as the kid? Who can say.

[Leafs43]

LucasShark wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Many of the "anti-s" actually don't like IT out of pure spite.


That is pretty much grinding in the heels and trying to work against it.


But this thread really isn't about IT.  It's about the vacancy of IT in fact.  

It's kind of like asking fundamental christians who don't believe in evolution to explain why there are different races of people.

Pot calling the kettle black much?

Funny how it is the group using the assertion fallacy (the ITers) who are calling the others "fundamentalist".  Do you see no irony here?

You've already used two arguments I reckognize from creationits, see the "My conclusion is right and you know it", and the "I seek truth" despite starting with a conclusion idiocy.

I know my conclusion that the reapers are mentally manipulating Shepard is right because the logic is right.

But if you can come up with a better explanation, I'll hear it out.

[OdanUrr]

Leafs43 wrote...

It's to come to an understanding that the reapers, regardless of IT or not, are manipulating Shepard's brain.


Whether or not that makes the leap to IT easier is up to the reader.

Well, you start from the premise that Catalyst = Reapers. I'm not quite sold on that part. Second, at the time I merely thought that Shepard was the one projecting the kid and thus shaping the appearance of the Catalyst, that maybe the Catalyst didn't choose to appear as the kid but rather Shepard did, because he's been on Shepard's mind a lot (too much even).

[Taboo]

I've already given you the explanation.

At this point you resemble a bible thumper.

You don't have anything.

It's just bad writing at the end. Nothing more, nothing less.

That's what happens when you don't have peer review.

[OchreJelly]

Leafs43 wrote...

Many of the "anti-s" actually don't like IT out of pure spite.


That is pretty much grinding in the heels and trying to work against it.

Well, it may appear that way to you, because you disagree with them. And besides, that's a two way street you travel there.

It may have something to do with the behaviour of a small group of the theory proponents, that their idea of how the game ended is absolute truth and even the smallest, most insignificant things are somehow confirmation of their interpretation. Emphasis on 'some,' not all.

I am *Not* saying others who hold different views are not acting that way, of course, but it is out there. 

Personally all I think the whole 'pro/anti' situation is doing is divisively dividing the fanbase.

[Leafs43]

OdanUrr wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

It's to come to an understanding that the reapers, regardless of IT or not, are manipulating Shepard's brain.


Whether or not that makes the leap to IT easier is up to the reader.

Well, you start from the premise that Catalyst = Reapers. I'm not quite sold on that part. Second, at the time I merely thought that Shepard was the one projecting the kid and thus shaping the appearance of the Catalyst, that maybe the Catalyst didn't choose to appear as the kid but rather Shepard did, because he's been on Shepard's mind a lot (too much even).

You just admitted the catalyst is reading Shepard's mind.


Was that so hard?

[LucasShark]

Leafs43 wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Many of the "anti-s" actually don't like IT out of pure spite.


That is pretty much grinding in the heels and trying to work against it.


But this thread really isn't about IT.  It's about the vacancy of IT in fact.  

It's kind of like asking fundamental christians who don't believe in evolution to explain why there are different races of people.

Pot calling the kettle black much?

Funny how it is the group using the assertion fallacy (the ITers) who are calling the others "fundamentalist".  Do you see no irony here?

You've already used two arguments I reckognize from creationits, see the "My conclusion is right and you know it", and the "I seek truth" despite starting with a conclusion idiocy.

I know my conclusion that the reapers are mentally manipulating Shepard is right because the logic is right.

But if you can come up with a better explanation, I'll hear it out.

Okay, here's one: IT is incorrect, the Catalyst is actually an advanced VI program, projecting itself exactly as all other holograms do in the ME universe, and capable of retrieving the boys image from Shepard using a neural interface technology simmilar to the beacons, or by tapping into Shepard's implanted technology.

THere, that's an easily equally valid explanation minus IT theory.  And there is no way to confirm or deny either until BIoware says one is right or one is wrong because we are dealing with a fictional universe, and not even a very consistant one anymore.

[OdanUrr]

Leafs43 wrote...

You just admitted the catalyst is reading Shepard's mind.


Was that so hard?

You didn't understand what I wrote, did you?

[Leafs43]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I've already given you the explanation.

At this point you resemble a bible thumper.

You don't have anything.

It's just bad writing at the end. Nothing more, nothing less.

That's what happens when you don't have peer review.

Your explanation is "bad writing".


That has nothing to do with the context of the game.  Like I said before, feel free to come up with an explanable solution within the context of the game.  Yet you keep avoiding it like the plague.


But keep slinging ad hominems.  They make your point better.

[OchreJelly]

Well, bad writing can and will happen.

Bad results in creative-arts are quite common, despite the best of intentions. Even to good writers.

Modifié par OchreJelly, 25 mai 2012 - 01:22 .

[Leafs43]

OdanUrr wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

You just admitted the catalyst is reading Shepard's mind.


Was that so hard?

You didn't understand what I wrote, did you?

I understand it perfectly.


In order for the catalyst to be a projection of Sheperd's mind, the catalyst will still have to be able to read it.  Not only read the projection, but also the dialog shows the catalyst has been rooting around in Shepard's brain quite deeply.  So you by and large admitted the catalyst is reading Shepard's mind.


Now whether the catalyst is a reaper(or an extension of the reapers) or just a VI is another point all together and has already been tackled earlier in this topic.

Modifié par Leafs43, 25 mai 2012 - 01:24 .