262 réponses à ce sujet

[GreyGhost1989]

I don't believe in the IT in the way that most people explain it because it presents the ending in a worse light, IMO.

However, I do believe that the Reapers were in fact trying to trick Shepard into making the wrong choice.

Does that make sense? Basically, I don't think it was all a dream that Shepard was having on Earth.

[Aaleel]

GreyGhost1989 wrote...

I don't believe in the IT in the way that most people explain it because it presents the ending in a worse light, IMO.

However, I do believe that the Reapers were in fact trying to trick Shepard into making the wrong choice.

Does that make sense? Basically, I don't think it was all a dream that Shepard was having on Earth.

I thought kind of the same thing based on the way the Catalyst described the choices.  Destory meant killing Geth and maybe yourself, and Control the Catalyst said you'll die and lose everything you have.

But then made Systhesis out to pretty much be all roses.  I thought it was trying to get Shepard to become part of the human reaper.  Sovereign said that reapers were the pinnacle of evolution, and the Catalyst said Synthesis was the final stage of evolution. 

[Kaelef]

dreamgazer wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

IT tries to explain things in-game that have far simpler explanations out-of-game.  People did this.  People who make mistakes and have budgets and deadlines like the rest of us.

I can't emphasize enough that there are two components to this: interpreting indoctrination, and affirming a theory.  You'll find mistakes, yes, but you'll also find real devices in there that heavily suggest that Shepard is in the midst of fending off indoctrination, something that has been present in the Mass Effect lore for well over five years---and mentioned gratutiously in the third game.  

They're not explicitly one in the same, even if they both funnel to the same conclusion.  I don't know if others can partition the two as clearly, but I do. I don't know if that makes me pro-IT or what that says, but it makes me pro-interpretation.  And saying the way I'm interpreting what I see with my eyes is rooted solely in bad writing and game glitches is insulting.

1.) Why in the world do you find this personally insulting??  It's not your bad writing or game glitches.

2.) There are elements in the game which may well have been put in with the intent of developing a "Shepard fighting indoctrination" story line.  For whatever reason, that was dropped.

3.) The ending we got in ME3 being a false-ending (induced by indoctrination or what have you) would be both bad writing and insulting because it would rely on betraying the trust the player has built with the game universe.  Never in the game universe are we lied to about what's happening before us.  To do this for the first time and in such a grand manner at the very end would be, if nothing else, in incredibly poor artistic taste.

It's one thing when we're killed at the beginning of ME2 - we know perfectly well that it's not a true end since we've only started playing the game.  It's another thing at the end of ME3 when there's no reason to believe what we're presented with is anything less than accurate.

Modifié par Kaelef, 25 mai 2012 - 02:28 .

[Kaelef]

Leafs43 wrote...

I understand what you are saying.

But if you want to go down this road it ends really with the same conclusion.

If the catalyst is some super duper AI with the ability to deduce everything from Shepard, and coincidentally controls the reapers.....what do we have?

I don't see where this "super duper AI" requirement comes from.  The Catalyst doesn't display any more insight than any other character in ME.  I think we're meant to assume that it is probably much smarter, wiser and better informed than we are, but that's certainly never shown by what it does or says.

Modifié par Kaelef, 25 mai 2012 - 02:30 .

[Leafs43]

Kaelef wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

I understand what you are saying.

But if you want to go down this road it ends really with the same conclusion.

If the catalyst is some super duper AI with the ability to deduce everything from Shepard, and coincidentally controls the reapers.....what do we have?

I don't see where this "super duper AI" requirement comes from.  The Catalyst doesn't display any more insight than any other character in ME.  I think we're meant to assume that it is probably much smarter, wiser and better informed than we are, but that's certainly never shown by what it does or says.

It shows the ability to know what the crucible is over the collective knowledge of the entire alliance.

[Kaelef]

Leafs43 wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

I understand what you are saying.

But if you want to go down this road it ends really with the same conclusion.

If the catalyst is some super duper AI with the ability to deduce everything from Shepard, and coincidentally controls the reapers.....what do we have?

I don't see where this "super duper AI" requirement comes from.  The Catalyst doesn't display any more insight than any other character in ME.  I think we're meant to assume that it is probably much smarter, wiser and better informed than we are, but that's certainly never shown by what it does or says.

It shows the ability to know what the crucible is over the collective knowledge of the entire alliance.

What does?  Tell me exactly what it says that tells us this or even suggests it.

EDIT: Oh, wait - I think I understand your sentence... You're saying that its knowledge of the function of the Crucible makes it a "super duper AI"? 

Modifié par Kaelef, 25 mai 2012 - 02:34 .

[dreamgazer]

Kaelef wrote...

Why in the world do you find this personally insulting??  It's not your bad writing or game glitches.

Suggesting that what I've picked up on wasn't intended by the creators asserts that I'm cooking things up on my own, that I'm just kinda dreaming 'em up or seeing things that aren't there. I have a tighter grasp on my interpretive faculties than that.

[Leafs43]

Kaelef wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

I understand what you are saying.

But if you want to go down this road it ends really with the same conclusion.

If the catalyst is some super duper AI with the ability to deduce everything from Shepard, and coincidentally controls the reapers.....what do we have?

I don't see where this "super duper AI" requirement comes from.  The Catalyst doesn't display any more insight than any other character in ME.  I think we're meant to assume that it is probably much smarter, wiser and better informed than we are, but that's certainly never shown by what it does or says.

It shows the ability to know what the crucible is over the collective knowledge of the entire alliance.

What does?  Tell me exactly what it says that tells us this or even suggests it.

The entire game Hackett keeps telling us nobody who works on the crucible knows what it is.  And that includes the the brightest minds the citadel races can find.


The catalyst on the otherhand within 3 minutes of contact with the crucible (assuming the catalyst is bound to the citadel) knows not only what the crucible does, but is able to explain it in perfect english.



But in the end we end up with the same thing.  Either the catalyst is a mind reader or he is the mentalist, which while isn;t the same thing still allows him to manipulate Shepard.

Modifié par Leafs43, 25 mai 2012 - 02:40 .

[Kaelef]

Leafs43 wrote...


The entire game Hackett keeps telling us nobody who works on the crucible knows what it is.  And that includes the the brightest minds the citadel races can find.


The catalyst on the otherhand within 3 minutes of contact with the crucible (assuming the catalyst is bound to the citadel) knows not only what the crucible does, but is able to explain it in perfect english.



But in the end we end up with the same thing.  Either the catalyst is a mind reader or he is the mentalist, which while isn;t the same thing still allows him to manipulate Shepard.

Seriously?  You found this surprising?

Assuming the Catalyst has been around for many of these cycles (we can assume that, right?), it's been privy to the countless times building of the Crucible has been attempted.  It's been able to study it far longer than anyone else alive has.  It understands how the Citadel functions and how it might be used or modified to work against it.

I don't see that this proves anything particularly interesting (or even unexpected).

Honestly, it wouldn't even take being around for multiple cycles for the Catalyst to have a huge leg-up on how the Crucible does or might work.

And furthermore...  We are told that the Crucible itself modified the Catalyst.  It's not inconceivable that understanding itself was delivered as part of that modification.

Modifié par Kaelef, 25 mai 2012 - 02:47 .

[Leafs43]

Kaelef wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

I understand what you are saying.

But if you want to go down this road it ends really with the same conclusion.

If the catalyst is some super duper AI with the ability to deduce everything from Shepard, and coincidentally controls the reapers.....what do we have?

I don't see where this "super duper AI" requirement comes from.  The Catalyst doesn't display any more insight than any other character in ME.  I think we're meant to assume that it is probably much smarter, wiser and better informed than we are, but that's certainly never shown by what it does or says.

It shows the ability to know what the crucible is over the collective knowledge of the entire alliance.

What does?  Tell me exactly what it says that tells us this or even suggests it.

The entire game Hackett keeps telling us nobody who works on the crucible knows what it is.  And that includes the the brightest minds the citadel races can find.


The catalyst on the otherhand within 3 minutes of contact with the crucible (assuming the catalyst is bound to the citadel) knows not only what the crucible does, but is able to explain it in perfect english.



But in the end we end up with the same thing.  Either the catalyst is a mind reader or he is the mentalist, which while isn;t the same thing still allows him to manipulate Shepard.

Seriously?  You found this surprising?

Assuming
the Catalyst has been around for many of these cycles (we can assume
that, right?), it's been privy to the countless times building of the
Crucible has been attempted.  It's been able to study it far longer than
anyone else alive has.  It understands how the Citadel functions and
how it might be used or modified to work against it.

I don't see that this proves anything particularly interesting (or even unexpected).

The crucible from our explanation has never been attached to the citadel ala "No organic has made it this far".


So the only thing around in the other cycles it could possibly deduce this from would be the reapers.


Not to mention it was only the protheans that seemed to stumble on the catalyst.

Modifié par Leafs43, 25 mai 2012 - 02:46 .

[Kaelef]

Leafs43 wrote...


The crucible from our explanation has never been attached to the citadel ala "No organic has made it this far".

So the only thing around in the other cycles it could possibly deduce this from would be the reapers.

Okay.  I'm only saying the Catalyst has been around long enough to study the Crucible.  I don't think the details of how it studied it are particularly relevant to the discussion.

Not to mention it was only the protheans that seemed to stumble on the catalyst.

They make it very clear that the Catalyst has been in development for many cycles.

Modifié par Kaelef, 25 mai 2012 - 02:47 .

[Leafs43]

Kaelef wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...


The crucible from our explanation has never been attached to the citadel ala "No organic has made it this far".

So the only thing around in the other cycles it could possibly deduce this from would be the reapers.

Okay.  I'm only saying the Catalyst has been around long enough to study the Crucible.  I don't think the details of how it studied it are particularly relevant to the discussion.

Despite a small detail, it's actually important for a couple reasons.

If the catalyst is a mind reader, then since the crucible has never been hooked up to the citadel, that means the catalysts influence is beyond the citadel.

If the catalyst only deduces information that means it controls the reapers because only the reapers are out and about through the various cycles.



These two paths still converge to the same conclusion.

Modifié par Leafs43, 25 mai 2012 - 02:50 .

[Aaleel]

Leafs43 wrote...


The crucible from our explanation has never been attached to the citadel ala "No organic has made it this far".


So the only thing around in the other cycles it could possibly deduce this from would be the reapers.


Not to mention it was only the protheans that seemed to stumble on the catalyst.

This isn't entirely true.  They attached the Crucible to the Citadel before he even got to the Catalyst chamber, all he did was open the arms.  Talking to the Catalyst is not required to attach the crucibe to the Citadel.

Also the Prothean VI said that the crucible wasn't strong enough to defeat the reapers, which means someone must have tried to use it and failed.  Then the VI said it was decided that they would try and use the Citadel to boost the power, which created the Catalyst.  It didn't make it sound like it was the Protheans either, it didn't say we decided.

Modifié par Aaleel, 25 mai 2012 - 02:52 .

[Leafs43]

Kaelef wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Not to mention it was only the protheans that seemed to stumble on the catalyst.

They make it very clear that the Catalyst has been in development for many cycles.

Actually they make it clear that they don't know what the catalyst is, only that its the last component to the crucible.

Modifié par Leafs43, 25 mai 2012 - 02:52 .

[covertdrizzt]

To Op: The catalyst shows up as that kid because Bioware was going to have you be indoctrinated at the end. They had trouble making this work and were running out of time. They didn't have time to go back and change the whole game. In the current ending the kid is just like the architect in the matrix. This is what happens when you try to change an ending at the end of your production time limit. They just slapped that ending together with what they had at the last minute,

[Leafs43]

covertdrizzt wrote...

To Op: The catalyst shows up as that kid because Bioware was going to have you be indoctrinated at the end. They had trouble making this work and were running out of time. They didn't have time to go back and change the whole game. In the current ending the kid is just like the architect in the matrix. This is what happens when you try to change an ending at the end of your production time limit. They just slapped that ending together with what they had at the last minute,

Even if a mistake, we have to take it as canon.

Thus we have to explain how canon occurred.

[Kaelef]

Leafs43 wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...


The crucible from our explanation has never been attached to the citadel ala "No organic has made it this far".

So the only thing around in the other cycles it could possibly deduce this from would be the reapers.

Okay.  I'm only saying the Catalyst has been around long enough to study the Crucible.  I don't think the details of how it studied it are particularly relevant to the discussion.

Despite a small detail, it's actually important for a couple reasons.

If the catalyst is a mind reader, then since the crucible has never been hooked up to the citadel, that means the catalysts influence is beyond the citadel.

If the catalyst only deduces information that means it controls the reapers because only the reapers are out and about through the various cycles.



These two paths still converge to the same conclusion.

No, you're jumping to unfounded conclusions.

1.)  I've pointed out how it doesn't need to read minds to understand the nature of the Crucible.  Therefore, whether or not the Catalyst can read minds is immaterial (except that it would make it easier to do something that it can do anyway).

2.) There's absolutely nothing in the game that tells us the Catalyst is trapped in the Citadel and can't venture to other parts of the galaxy, or that it can't sense what's going on in other parts of the galaxy, or that it can't get reports about what's going on in other parts of the galaxy from others.

But anyway... what's this "same conclusion" you think this converges on?

[What a Succulent Ass]

covertdrizzt wrote...

To Op: The catalyst shows up as that kid because Bioware was going to have you be indoctrinated at the end. They had trouble making this work and were running out of time. They didn't have time to go back and change the whole game. In the current ending the kid is just like the architect in the matrix. This is what happens when you try to change an ending at the end of your production time limit. They just slapped that ending together with what they had at the last minute,

[citation needed]

[Kaelef]

Leafs43 wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Not to mention it was only the protheans that seemed to stumble on the catalyst.

They make it very clear that the Catalyst has been in development for many cycles.

Actually they make it clear that they don't know what the catalyst is, only that its the last component to the crucible.

Yes, I got my Catalysts and Crucibles mixed up.  They make it very clear that the Crucible has been in development for many cycles.  So... no one that we know of (other than Shepard) has stumbled upon the Catalyst.

Modifié par Kaelef, 25 mai 2012 - 02:58 .

[Kaelef]

Leafs43 wrote...

 The mere fact that you accept the catalysts existence means you acknowledge the reapers at minimum are reading Shepard's mind.

How else does the catalyst show up as the child from his dreams and the beginning of the game?  Would be quite the coincidence.

You're basing an argument on an unfounded assumption.

You're assuming that the Catalyst shows up in Shepard's dreams.  There's no reason to assume that.  The kid shows up in Shepard's dreams.  Later, when Shepard "meets" the Catalyst, it either takes on that form, or that's the form Shepard sees it in (we have no way of knowing which).

Modifié par Kaelef, 25 mai 2012 - 03:01 .

[Leafs43]

Kaelef wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...


The crucible from our explanation has never been attached to the citadel ala "No organic has made it this far".

So the only thing around in the other cycles it could possibly deduce this from would be the reapers.

Okay.  I'm only saying the Catalyst has been around long enough to study the Crucible.  I don't think the details of how it studied it are particularly relevant to the discussion.

Despite a small detail, it's actually important for a couple reasons.

If the catalyst is a mind reader, then since the crucible has never been hooked up to the citadel, that means the catalysts influence is beyond the citadel.

If the catalyst only deduces information that means it controls the reapers because only the reapers are out and about through the various cycles.



These two paths still converge to the same conclusion.

No, you're jumping to unfounded conclusions.

1.)  I've pointed out how it doesn't need to read minds to understand the nature of the Crucible.  Therefore, whether or not the Catalyst can read minds is immaterial (except that it would make it easier to do something that it can do anyway).

2.) There's absolutely nothing in the game that tells us the Catalyst is trapped in the Citadel and can't venture to other parts of the galaxy, or that it can't sense what's going on in other parts of the galaxy, or that it can't get reports about what's going on in other parts of the galaxy from others.

But anyway... what's this "same conclusion" you think this converges on?

If the catalyst jumps around the galaxy at will (let's say through other computers and synthetics) through various cycles, almost like a sentient being, how is it not an extremely advanced AI?

You know, you're almost describing the Geth consensus to the letter concerning the catalyst, except far more advanced.

And if you can agree to the previous statement, you pretty much agree with my other statements.

[Leafs43]

Kaelef wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

 The mere fact that you accept the catalysts existence means you acknowledge the reapers at minimum are reading Shepard's mind.

How else does the catalyst show up as the child from his dreams and the beginning of the game?  Would be quite the coincidence.

You're basing an argument on an unfounded assumption.

You're assuming that the Catalyst shows up in Shepard's dreams.  There's no reason to assume that.  The kid shows up in Shepard's dreams.  Later, when Shepard "meets" the Catalyst, it either takes on that form, or that's the form Shepard sees it in.

Nope.


Shepard has dream -> Catalyst just reads dream->catalyst uses dream against Shepard in the end.

Catalyst != dream

[Kaelef]

Leafs43 wrote...

If the catalyst jumps around the galaxy at will (let's say through other computers and synthetics) through various cycles, almost like a sentient being, how is it not an extremely advanced AI?

Your mind works in mysterious ways.

Shepard can jump around the galaxy at will.  Are you saying he's an extremely advanced AI?

[soulprovider]

Leafs43 wrote...

 The mere fact that you accept the catalysts existence means you acknowledge the reapers at minimum are reading Shepard's mind.

How else does the catalyst show up as the child from his dreams and the beginning of the game?  Would be quite the coincidence.

Vigil: you are not an Indoctrination theorist but you are not an anti-indoctrination theorist, this eventuality was one of many that was anticipated, this is why we sent our warning through the beacons
wrex: looks like some kind of VI program...pretty badly damaged
Vigil: I do not sense the taint of a troll upon any of you in this thread....unlike the OP, perhaps there is still hope.

[Leafs43]

Kaelef wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

If the catalyst jumps around the galaxy at will (let's say through other computers and synthetics) through various cycles, almost like a sentient being, how is it not an extremely advanced AI?

Your mind works in mysterious ways.

Shepard can jump around the galaxy at will.  Are you saying he's an extremely advanced AI?

AI really stands for synthetic free will in this instance.