262 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

soulprovider wrote...

It shows up as a kid, to me it in no way looks like the kid from Shepard's dreams, size and facial features are just too different.

I think the AI picked a human child from the databanks to use as a means to deter anger, think about how retail managers are taught to smile at a customer complaint because it disarms the customer's anger. Would anyone really scream or rage as the young. If anything the AI is trying to prevent shepard from doing anything hostile. But it does not look like the child from the beginning of the game.

It may use the same VO, but its already been established by tali's photo and the last epilogue scene that bioware cut a few corners.

You in so much denile it's not funny.

Modifié par dreman9999, 25 mai 2012 - 03:40 .

[dreman9999]

Kaelef wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

Leafs43
I'm honestly not clear about one thing: What point have you been trying to make throughout this thread?

IT or not; the reapers are manipulating Shepard mentally as long as you acknowledge the existence of the catalyst..


Just like the title says.

It just seemed like you were trying to prove that the Catalyst was reading Shepard's mind.  Which, even if true, would not prove that they were manipulating it.  Reading =/= writing.

If you don't acknowledge the existence of the catalyst, you really go into IT territory.

I've never denied the Catalyst's existence. 

If he is using the image ofa dead child you see at the begining of thr game...

[Kaelef]

Leafs43 wrote...

That's the only way to conceive the scene as I kind of checkmated you on this.

You admitted that the catalyst can maybe move freely (crucible studying).  Therefore the catalyst isn't Shepard's own mind projecting and the catalyst is its own tangible being.



Like I said, you come to the same conclusion no matter the path you take.

When did I say the Catalyst was not its own being?  I said its image - its visualization - was possibly Shepard's doing - not its existence.  In fact, I very explicitly said that I believe the Catalyst exists.

Your logical deductions seem to go something like this:

   1 + 1 = 5, therefore orange

[Leafs43]

dreman9999 wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

Leafs43
I'm honestly not clear about one thing: What point have you been trying to make throughout this thread?

IT or not; the reapers are manipulating Shepard mentally as long as you acknowledge the existence of the catalyst..


Just like the title says.

It just seemed like you were trying to prove that the Catalyst was reading Shepard's mind.  Which, even if true, would not prove that they were manipulating it.  Reading =/= writing.

If you don't acknowledge the existence of the catalyst, you really go into IT territory.

I've never denied the Catalyst's existence. 

If he is using the image ofa dead child you see at the begining of thr game...

Let's not make te conversation derivative here.


Me and you pretty much agree, but let's not get condecending here.  It does no one any good.

[dreman9999]

Kaelef wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jsadalia wrote...

The catalyst is not a reaper. We don't know what it is.

He tells you he is in charge of the reapers and controls them...That makes him part of them.

You control your car, does that make you an automobile?

But my car don't have it's own will and I don't say"You goingto destroy us" When someone says they are going to destroy my car.

And that proves what exactly?

He is assoctates himself with the reapers when he says"I know your think about destroying us".
Being in control doesn't mean your not with the group.

[Kaelef]

dreman9999 wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

Leafs43
I'm honestly not clear about one thing: What point have you been trying to make throughout this thread?

IT or not; the reapers are manipulating Shepard mentally as long as you acknowledge the existence of the catalyst..


Just like the title says.

It just seemed like you were trying to prove that the Catalyst was reading Shepard's mind.  Which, even if true, would not prove that they were manipulating it.  Reading =/= writing.

If you don't acknowledge the existence of the catalyst, you really go into IT territory.

I've never denied the Catalyst's existence. 

If he is using the image ofa dead child you see at the begining of thr game...

What in the world did you just try to say?

[Candoo]

Leafs43 wrote...

I look at it this way; the catalyst could have shown up as anything.  It could have shown up as a squadmate, as a LI, as a past species, as a current species, as a glowing ball of glowing., etc...

But it specifically shows up as the kid which of whom only Shepard sees and dreams about.  As literary devices go, once is a anamoly, twice is a coincidence, three times is evidence.  The kid shows up more than 3 times.

Evidence of WHAT ??

You just said yourself that the catalyst could have shown up as anything. BUT, the WRITERS chose to use the kid. It was easy to incorporate the kid as the Catalyst. I think it would have been pure foolishness to have one of my squadmates show up as the Catalyst, telling me to pick red, green or blue.

[Kaelef]

dreman9999 wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jsadalia wrote...

The catalyst is not a reaper. We don't know what it is.

He tells you he is in charge of the reapers and controls them...That makes him part of them.

You control your car, does that make you an automobile?

But my car don't have it's own will and I don't say"You goingto destroy us" When someone says they are going to destroy my car.

And that proves what exactly?

He is assoctates himself with the reapers when he says"I know your think about destroying us".
Being in control doesn't mean your not with the group.

Ah.  True - I don't disagree with that.

[Leafs43]

Kaelef wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

That's the only way to conceive the scene as I kind of checkmated you on this.

You admitted that the catalyst can maybe move freely (crucible studying).  Therefore the catalyst isn't Shepard's own mind projecting and the catalyst is its own tangible being.



Like I said, you come to the same conclusion no matter the path you take.

When did I say the Catalyst was not its own being?  I said its image - its visualization - was possibly Shepard's doing - not its existence.  In fact, I very explicitly said that I believe the Catalyst exists.

Your logical deductions seem to go something like this:

   1 + 1 = 5, therefore orange

You admitted the catalyst exists multiple cycles.

You admitted the crucible has the ability to jump through the galaxy.

You admitted the crucible is capable of studying the crucible.


You pretty much admitted the crucible is its own being.

[dreman9999]

Kaelef wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

That's the only way to conceive the scene as I kind of checkmated you on this.

You admitted that the catalyst can maybe move freely (crucible studying).  Therefore the catalyst isn't Shepard's own mind projecting and the catalyst is its own tangible being.



Like I said, you come to the same conclusion no matter the path you take.

When did I say the Catalyst was not its own being?  I said its image - its visualization - was possibly Shepard's doing - not its existence.  In fact, I very explicitly said that I believe the Catalyst exists.

Your logical deductions seem to go something like this:

   1 + 1 = 5, therefore orange

But you yet to awnser why the starchild looks the way he does.

[soulprovider]

dreman9999 wrote...

soulprovider wrote...

It shows up as a kid, to me it in no way looks like the kid from Shepard's dreams, size and facial features are just too different.

I think the AI picked a human child from the databanks to use as a means to deter anger, think about how retail managers are taught to smile at a customer complaint because it disarms the customer's anger. Would anyone really scream or rage as the young. If anything the AI is trying to prevent shepard from doing anything hostile. But it does not look like the child from the beginning of the game.

It may use the same VO, but its already been established by tali's photo and the last epilogue scene that bioware cut a few corners.

You in so much denila it's not funny.

So? all that shows is that the engine is set for only one child becase only one child apparently exists in the mass effect universe, it still does not directly look like the kid, in fact that picture proves that it is too vague to look like the child directly, it just looks like a a respasted model,, bioware couldn't outright use the same model for their ending because it wouldn't create the speculations from everyone set up that mac walters was going for, so instead they had there designers copy and paste the model and make it translucent and shiny. This is cheaper and takes a few hours to do this. Infact altering a character is a common development technique used for game modders and up and coming game designers to populate a game world.

Point being until bioware confirms or denies the IT there will always be this stupid debate about whether we were sold a complete game(anti-IT) or an incomplete game(IT). Its like abortion vs prolife, until god comes down from the heavens and puts the discussion to rest there will always be a debate between the informed resaonable thinkers and the religious zealots who cannot see reason, the question becomes who's who and do both sides have them.

EDIT: needed to clarify a few points but no matter sure someone already posted and replyed to my post.

Modifié par soulprovider, 25 mai 2012 - 03:54 .

[Swimming Ferret]

The Catalyst is NOT a Reaper. He only controls them.

That's like saying all the geth, while they were under control of the Reaper Destroyer, were Reapers.

[Kaelef]

Leafs43 wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

That's the only way to conceive the scene as I kind of checkmated you on this.

You admitted that the catalyst can maybe move freely (crucible studying).  Therefore the catalyst isn't Shepard's own mind projecting and the catalyst is its own tangible being.



Like I said, you come to the same conclusion no matter the path you take.

When did I say the Catalyst was not its own being?  I said its image - its visualization - was possibly Shepard's doing - not its existence.  In fact, I very explicitly said that I believe the Catalyst exists.

Your logical deductions seem to go something like this:

   1 + 1 = 5, therefore orange

You admitted the catalyst exists multiple cycles.

You admitted the crucible has the ability to jump through the galaxy.

You admitted the crucible is capable of studying the crucible.


You pretty much admitted the crucible is its own being.

I can only assuming you're mixing Crucible and Catalyst up on purpose now.

The Catalyst is its own being (as far as we can tell).

The Crucible is its own building.

For reasons unknown, you believe you've "checkmated" me somehow.

[dreman9999]

Kaelef wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jsadalia wrote...

The catalyst is not a reaper. We don't know what it is.

He tells you he is in charge of the reapers and controls them...That makes him part of them.

You control your car, does that make you an automobile?

But my car don't have it's own will and I don't say"You goingto destroy us" When someone says they are going to destroy my car.

And that proves what exactly?

He is assoctates himself with the reapers when he says"I know your think about destroying us".
Being in control doesn't mean your not with the group.

Ah.  True - I don't disagree with that.

I'll add on the fact that it can be seen to be hard to not only trust him but trobleing to see that hetakes the image of a child Shepard watch die. It leavesthe question to how he is able to do that. It makes it more trobling that the starchild is assocate with a group of being that have a vast history of messing with organics minds. Itleaves a question what level of this inflence the starchild has over Shepard if he can read Shepards mind.

[Kaelef]

dreman9999 wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

That's the only way to conceive the scene as I kind of checkmated you on this.

You admitted that the catalyst can maybe move freely (crucible studying).  Therefore the catalyst isn't Shepard's own mind projecting and the catalyst is its own tangible being.



Like I said, you come to the same conclusion no matter the path you take.

When did I say the Catalyst was not its own being?  I said its image - its visualization - was possibly Shepard's doing - not its existence.  In fact, I very explicitly said that I believe the Catalyst exists.

Your logical deductions seem to go something like this:

   1 + 1 = 5, therefore orange

But you yet to awnser why the starchild looks the way he does.

No, I did say earlier that the visual representation of the Catalyst could easily be a construct of Shepard's mind more than an intentional "attempt to deceive" by the Catalyst itself.

[Leafs43]

Swimming Ferret wrote...

The Catalyst is NOT a Reaper. He only controls them.

That's like saying all the geth, while they were under control of the Reaper Destroyer, were Reapers.

The catalyst is controlling the reapers to be murderous machines ergo the catalyst is the one supplying the reapers with their objectives.  

[Leafs43]

Kaelef wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

That's the only way to conceive the scene as I kind of checkmated you on this.

You admitted that the catalyst can maybe move freely (crucible studying).  Therefore the catalyst isn't Shepard's own mind projecting and the catalyst is its own tangible being.



Like I said, you come to the same conclusion no matter the path you take.

When did I say the Catalyst was not its own being?  I said its image - its visualization - was possibly Shepard's doing - not its existence.  In fact, I very explicitly said that I believe the Catalyst exists.

Your logical deductions seem to go something like this:

   1 + 1 = 5, therefore orange

You admitted the catalyst exists multiple cycles.

You admitted the catalyst has the ability to jump through the galaxy.

You admitted the catalyst is capable of studying the crucible.


You pretty much admitted the catalyst is its own being.

I can only assuming you're mixing Crucible and Catalyst up on purpose now.

The Catalyst is its own being (as far as we can tell).

The Crucible is its own building.

For reasons unknown, you believe you've "checkmated" me somehow.

I meant catalyst in all instances. The crucible isn't going to study itself.

My fault, fixed in quote

[dreman9999]

Swimming Ferret wrote...

The Catalyst is NOT a Reaper. He only controls them.

That's like saying all the geth, while they were under control of the Reaper Destroyer, were Reapers.

They are assocated with them. And the one who were with them eariler used the reapers tactics...aka dragons teeth.
Let alone, if the Starchild is in control of the reapers, then it means he came up with the harveting plan for organics.

[KevShep]

Swimming Ferret wrote...

The Catalyst is NOT a Reaper. He only controls them.

That's like saying all the geth, while they were under control of the Reaper Destroyer, were Reapers.

Thats only what the catalyst tells you. After all he does look like that kid meaning that you cant really trust him for obvious reasons.

[Kaelef]

dreman9999 wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jsadalia wrote...

The catalyst is not a reaper. We don't know what it is.

He tells you he is in charge of the reapers and controls them...That makes him part of them.

You control your car, does that make you an automobile?

But my car don't have it's own will and I don't say"You goingto destroy us" When someone says they are going to destroy my car.

And that proves what exactly?

He is assoctates himself with the reapers when he says"I know your think about destroying us".
Being in control doesn't mean your not with the group.

Ah.  True - I don't disagree with that.

I'll add on the fact that it can be seen to be hard to not only trust him but trobleing to see that hetakes the image of a child Shepard watch die. It leavesthe question to how he is able to do that. It makes it more trobling that the starchild is assocate with a group of being that have a vast history of messing with organics minds. Itleaves a question what level of this inflence the starchild has over Shepard if he can read Shepards mind.

No, sorry - I disagree with "the Catalyst is trying to manipulate you".  There's just no evidence of that, and ME has always been pretty obvious when characters are trying to deceive you. 

The best you can do is present deception as a possibility, which I'll grant you - it's no impossible that that's what's happening - but you can't prove it.  At least not until the EC is out.

[Candoo]

Kaelef wrote...

For reasons unknown, you believe you've "checkmated" me somehow.

Kaelef, I have read this whole thread, and it seems his ego to be right is getting the better of him, to the point where he is trying to twist what you say, to make it seem that you agree with him.

[dreman9999]

Kaelef wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

That's the only way to conceive the scene as I kind of checkmated you on this.

You admitted that the catalyst can maybe move freely (crucible studying).  Therefore the catalyst isn't Shepard's own mind projecting and the catalyst is its own tangible being.



Like I said, you come to the same conclusion no matter the path you take.

When did I say the Catalyst was not its own being?  I said its image - its visualization - was possibly Shepard's doing - not its existence.  In fact, I very explicitly said that I believe the Catalyst exists.

Your logical deductions seem to go something like this:

   1 + 1 = 5, therefore orange

But you yet to awnser why the starchild looks the way he does.

No, I did say earlier that the visual representation of the Catalyst could easily be a construct of Shepard's mind more than an intentional "attempt to deceive" by the Catalyst itself.

That leave openthe question to why Shepard's mind need to do that. There is noreason why it would. The only case of that happening was in the geth census when Shepard was in a dream like state.  

Modifié par dreman9999, 25 mai 2012 - 03:56 .

[Leafs43]

Kaelef wrote...

No, sorry - I disagree with "the Catalyst is trying to manipulate you".  There's just no evidence of that, and ME has always been pretty obvious when characters are trying to deceive you. 

The best you can do is present deception as a possibility, which I'll grant you - it's no impossible that that's what's happening - but you can't prove it.  At least not until the EC is out.

Every AI that controls genocidal machines that shows up as the enitity from your nightmares always comes bearing the truth.

[Swimming Ferret]

Leafs43 wrote...

Swimming Ferret wrote...

The Catalyst is NOT a Reaper. He only controls them.

That's like saying all the geth, while they were under control of the Reaper Destroyer, were Reapers.

The catalyst is controlling the reapers to be murderous machines ergo the catalyst is the one supplying the reapers with their objectives.  

...That's what I said, he's controlling them, but he isn't one.

[KevShep]

Kaelef wrote...


 ME has always been pretty obvious when characters are trying to deceive you. 

Unless Shepard is being indoctrinated! At which point the player MUST also be "indoctrinated"!