140 réponses à ce sujet

[Fast Jimmy]

Pedrak wrote...

In DA2 they got wrong several core elements of RPGs (combat, sidequests, exploration), so I think it's better if they focus on priorities rather than on marginal, colourful, potentially-interesting-but-also-potentially-awful, Molyneux-lite features like having kids.

I actually agree with this. I'd much rather see, say, a more in-depth leveling scheme or a more nuanced dialgoue system than ever putting kids in a game.

However, in a magical world where Bioware makes perfect games, I'd be interested in them trying their hand at telling a story where the main character can be a parent. 

After all, since DA appears to mirror a lot of medieal Europe in its conventions and societal norms, then the fact that Hawke, who would have been near his thirties by the time DA2's story was completed, did not have a single child is pretty far-fetched. People in medieval Europe were considered adults not much longer after they hit puberty and would be expected to have children well before they hit their 20's.

Just as a lore/world reference note.

[R0vena]

No children, please. Only if this will be an option you can NOT choose.
I absolutely don't want my characters to be forced into parenthood against their will.

[Kyda]

Kulyok wrote...

No, thanks. I don't want kids. I don't like kids. If a kid is going to be forced upon my protagonist in any computer game, I'll chuck it out of the window.

Also, this. "One of the most emotional and impactful events that can happen in a person's life is the birth of their children and how they affect their outlook and views on life." Yes, negatively. An unwanted kid ruins a person's life. It would certainly ruin mine - and would probably ruin the fantasy world of a computer game in like two seconds.

So, again, thanks but no thanks. Childfree here.

Hey, Kulyok as in BG Xan´s mod creator Kulyok?
 
Edit: Also related to OP. In Bg2 (I can´t comment on Aerie since I only played female pc) there was a mod, Kelsey, where you could choose to tell him that you were pregnant and it would only happen if you chose that option. Otherwise it wouldn´t happen. I am not sure a kid ingame would actually work but for epilogues it would be a nice add on (if you chose to, meaning optional)

Modifié par Kyda, 28 mai 2012 - 07:38 .

[Kulyok]

Yep.

Also, there's another problem here: voiceover. In games like BG2(Kelsey mod, for one), you could indeed make a kid optional - it would require only, say, two extra conversation out of 37 already here(plus flirts). Not really a big difference.

Now everything is voiced, which means that in games like ME3 and DA2, resources are limited, and we only get six or seven conversations with our love interests per GAME. Add a kid into equation, it would mean that "no kids, thank you" people would get like four or five conversations, and people who would want a kid would get the full eight, plus a more "full" and "realized" ending. This essentially means that people would be sort of forced to choose a "kid" ending, either out of curiosity, or out of desire to spend more "game time" with their beloved ones.

Imagine if you could get three extra scenes with Garrus or Anders, and the sacrifice would be a Shepard/Hawke kid(god, a Shepard/Hawke kid, now I can't unsee it)? Would you go for it? I would, although I totally wouldn't want to. That's what I mean by "forced", and that's what unfortunately would happen.

[Green Monster]

I have kids in real life and play games to escape them, among other things. I do not see birth and parenting as adding any "fun" benefit for me. Stolen kid as a quest mechanism is ok, but could just as easily be a friend, sibling, pet or inanimate object.

However, I would not mind playing a former characters progeny as my protagonist, especially if it was linked to previous game choices. Of course that opens the door for the OG baby which I would rather not play.

Modifié par Green Monster, 29 mai 2012 - 07:28 .

[nightscrawl]

I'm not too keen on this idea, mainly because it puts an unequal burden on femals PCs that male PCs won't have. Unless there is another similar situation to Kirkwall where you have (1) a time lapse of several years; (2) a stable, permanent house to live in [ie NOT party camp as in DAO]; (3) a period of relative safety for about 6 months [this includes the latter part of pregnancy and the first few baby months] I don't see how it's doable.

We are supposed to be adventurers: putting ourselves in dangerous situations, kicking ass, wreaking havoc on baddies, and drawing the wrath and ire of our enemies. You think I want to deal with a pregnant PC doing all of that?

And too, how would you make it optional? Through a convoluted series of dialogues that may or may not be vague, trying to guess the female PC's reaction to becoming pregnant? What if I'm dense, or just don't think it's a possibility in this game and answer positively in thinking of a future scenario with my LI, not knowing it will influence my current game? Do you know how utterly PISSED OFF I would be? The other option is of course to directly ask the player through dialogue options, but that seems lame and gamey, and Bioware doesn't even want to add a toggle for sexual preference, so I doubt they would add it for child bearing.

The only way to do this and keep it equal would be to have a situation where the PC, male or female, is starting out with a family, possibly including children that would be out of infancy. At that point, the parent could leave (sadly and all that) because of some prophecy, encroaching danger, being in the right place at the wrong time to help so-and-so NPC, be captured by whoever bad guy, and so forth.

I'll add though that being a parent takes away a tremendous amount of RP from the player, being even less of a blank slate than Hawke or Cousland Warden was. It ascribes a really serious set of goals and motivations that you might not have otherwise because you know you have to make it through this fight, and the next fight, and the fight after that alive so you can get back to your children. It also forces on you the desire of wanting to save the world in order to save your children -- which I find lame -- when really, saving it for yourself should be enough.

Finally, I do not want children hanging around in my game. I don't like children, and they are presented as annoying in movies/TV, or are all written with the same tropes: bratty/angry with the world/self absorbed teen, precocious/clever/wise beyond years younger child, or the awkward/geeky tween -- one of the few shows where I liked all of the children was Terra Nova. I don't even like quests involving children, part of which has to do with the devs making them look odd, or having only 2-3 models of each gender all in the same age-range, so you have a bunch of clones running around. I saw several Amalia's and the kid next to Chanter Devons throughout DAO.

[nightscrawl]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

After all, since DA appears to mirror a lot of medieal Europe in its conventions and societal norms, then the fact that Hawke, who would have been near his thirties by the time DA2's story was completed, did not have a single child is pretty far-fetched. People in medieval Europe were considered adults not much longer after they hit puberty and would be expected to have children well before they hit their 20's.

Just as a lore/world reference note.

Yeah, and a female Cousland or non-mage Hawke would probably have been married off as soon as she bled too. Perhaps the atmosphere and level of technology is similar, but people really need to stop making such strict comparisons between this game series and real life. One of the largest considerations has to be the equal treatment of men and women in games simply to allow the player more freedom in choosing the gender they want to play, without any restrictions because of it. That first step in character creation is already not realistic, or analogous to how it actually was.

If you have a fixed protagonist like Geralt from The Witcher many of these things are doable. But not with the way Bioware does things, which I am very glad for.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 29 mai 2012 - 09:33 .

[AkiKishi]

nightscrawl wrote...
Yeah, and a female Cousland or non-mage Hawke would probably have been married off as soon as she bled too. Perhaps the atmosphere and level of technology is similar, but people really need to stop making such strict comparisons between this game series and real life. One of the largest considerations has to be the equal treatment of men and women in games simply to allow the player more freedom in choosing the gender they want to play, without any restrictions because of it. That first step in character creation is already not realistic, or analogous to how it actually was.

If you have a fixed protagonist like Geralt from The Witcher many of these things are doable. But not with the way Bioware does things, which I am very glad for.

People had short life spans and mortality from other causes was far higher. Maybe this is why the Witcher works as a world and DA2 does not. DA2 is far too concerned with political correctness over world integrity.

I find it far more interesting choosing something because of the restrictions and prejudice. Being a City Elf Warden is probably the most satisfying of the lot for that reason.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 29 mai 2012 - 10:04 .

[whykikyouwhy]

BobSmith101 wrote...

People had short life spans and mortality from other causes was far higher. Maybe this is why the Witcher works as a world and DA2 does not. DA2 is far too concerned with political correctness over world integrity.

The integrity of the DA-verse does not suffer from choices being afforded to the player. It's not from the stance of being politically correct that the player is allowed the opportunity and the ability to select his/her PC's gender, name, appearance, class, stat configuration, weapons, or armor. Nor is it from political correctness that the player is allowed to role-play as he/she sees fit.

[Kulyok]

I think the main difference between DA-world and medieval world is magical contraception. Without it, yep, it's multiple births and Dark Ages all over again, with exceptions few and far between, and powerful women restricted to the roles of, well, Lady Stark, not Brienne.

Although one wonders why Goldanna would want five children, then. She doesn't strike me as a woman who lacks common sense. Lazy writing?

[Curlain]

BobSmith101 wrote...



People had short life spans and mortality from other causes was far higher. Maybe this is why the Witcher works as a world and DA2 does not. DA2 is far too concerned with political correctness over world integrity.

I find it far more interesting choosing something because of the restrictions and prejudice. Being a City Elf Warden is probably the most satisfying of the lot for that reason.

The whole people had short life spans during the medieval period is not really true, figures often given such as 30 years as an average lifespan during a given timeperiod in the Middle Ages is largely an average worked out from mortality rates.  It's a figure effected by high child mortality rates (and indeed woman dying during child-birth was also a common risk), and risk of death by disease or infection after childhood during youth and early adult life.  Thus a figure like 30-40 years is often given, but actually pontential life-span was not much different from today, people were not 'old' when they were 30-40, and people in their 60-70s were not unknown at all (indeed some people made it into their 90's, Ramases II (the Great) from ancient Egypt (1303-1213 BC) was 96 when he died.

[Reznore57]

There's always been ways to prevent pregnancy.People weren't stupid.
A woman who had access to certain knowledge and desires to prevent having child could do so.
So no it's not really wierd to have a female hero childless (even with a sexual life going on), as being forced to married , it's something that happens in Dragon Age world if i remember correctly , but since woman seems to have fair access to work , i'm pretty sure it's not a rule set in stone.

Beside we already have Broodmothers for all those people who think it's only real if female pop out tons of critters out of their womb .^^

[Uccio]

Kulyok wrote...

I think the main difference between DA-world and medieval world is magical contraception. Without it, yep, it's multiple births and Dark Ages all over again, with exceptions few and far between, and powerful women restricted to the roles of, well, Lady Stark, not Brienne.

Although one wonders why Goldanna would want five children, then. She doesn't strike me as a woman who lacks common sense. Lazy writing?

No man + no contraception and no income = prostitution?

Modifié par Ukki, 29 mai 2012 - 11:24 .

[Uccio]

R0vena wrote...

No children, please. Only if this will be an option you can NOT choose.
I absolutely don't want my characters to be forced into parenthood against their will.

Babies should be tied to storyline and decisions. Not something that happens automatically.

[abnocte]

I think it was David Gaider who said that he didn't want to write stories where players were allowed to be bad parents, and from a ESRB point of view this is an obvious no-go.

( They could force us to care about the kid, just like they did with Carver, Bethany and MomHawke though... <_<)

Other than that, I agree that DA2 offered the perfect set-up for this to happen:

- You spend the whole game in the same city, and only visit the outskirts.
- You have a mansion where your servants and mother can take care of the kid.
- The story spans several years.
- Time skips so we don't have to go through the pregnancy.

Hawke "adventuring" ( if you can call it that ) would be no different from any parent going to work and leaving their kids in someone else care nowadays.

From a roleplaying prespective it is interesting, but I fear that most people will treat it just like a "minigame".

I also think it could be interesting to see companions with kids, just like Cernd in BG2... or Ogrhen in Awakening now that I think about it.

[AkiKishi]

Curlain wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...



People had short life spans and mortality from other causes was far higher. Maybe this is why the Witcher works as a world and DA2 does not. DA2 is far too concerned with political correctness over world integrity.

I find it far more interesting choosing something because of the restrictions and prejudice. Being a City Elf Warden is probably the most satisfying of the lot for that reason.

The whole people had short life spans during the medieval period is not really true, figures often given such as 30 years as an average lifespan during a given timeperiod in the Middle Ages is largely an average worked out from mortality rates.  It's a figure effected by high child mortality rates (and indeed woman dying during child-birth was also a common risk), and risk of death by disease or infection after childhood during youth and early adult life.  Thus a figure like 30-40 years is often given, but actually pontential life-span was not much different from today, people were not 'old' when they were 30-40, and people in their 60-70s were not unknown at all (indeed some people made it into their 90's, Ramases II (the Great) from ancient Egypt (1303-1213 BC) was 96 when he died.

Some people lived longer, some people still do.Exceptions are not the rule. Now dying young is seen as unusual rather than commonplace. At least in places like the US and UK. Diseases which are now either treatable or rare used to wipe out people in the 100,000's.

[AkiKishi]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

People had short life spans and mortality from other causes was far higher. Maybe this is why the Witcher works as a world and DA2 does not. DA2 is far too concerned with political correctness over world integrity.

The integrity of the DA-verse does not suffer from choices being afforded to the player. It's not from the stance of being politically correct that the player is allowed the opportunity and the ability to select his/her PC's gender, name, appearance, class, stat configuration, weapons, or armor. Nor is it from political correctness that the player is allowed to role-play as he/she sees fit.

Yes it does. It's whether or not you think the trade off is a worthwhile one.

[nightscrawl]

BobSmith101 wrote...

DA2 is far too concerned with political correctness over world integrity.

/shrug Where you see political correctness, I see wanting the player to have more options (if you are only referring to gender and romance).

However, I will agree that DA2 was more sanitized than DAO when it comes to behavior and people relating to each other. For a female PC there are more references to being a woman, most of which weren't very nice. I can't imagine some of those lines being said in DA2. It find it annoying they they toned down some of the darker aspects of conversation in favor of using the word "sh-t" and "bi--h," most of which I found unnecessary. Bann Vaughn calling my Warden a "fat wh--e" when she leaves him to rot in a cell is much more amusing, especially stemming from his impotency in the moment, than had he called her a bi--h. Alistair refers to Morrigan as that in a single instance of conversation with the Warden PC, and you can tell by his tone and the fact that he said it in the first place that he really meant it. If it were thrown around as casually as in DA2, it wouldn't have had near the impact.

I'm hoping that they will go back to the darker aspects and do more race relations in DA3. Since elf, dwarf, and human were the origins it made sense to have those relations be a part of DAO and less of a focus for DA2 since you are only a human. Knowing how elves are treated in general though, it really seemed tame in comparison to DAO.




** /sigh I think it's probably against the rules to get around the profanity filter in such a way, but I was making a point, not throwing the words around for the sake of just doing it. You know... like with the word usage in DA2... >.>

Modifié par nightscrawl, 29 mai 2012 - 12:16 .

[Jerrybnsn]

I'm for it. It's not like the OP was saying that having a family should be playable, just that it should be represented that people have families. If your protagonist is only 18 or 19 like the original Warden, then no. But what about your own Warden or Hawk who should be about thirty now? What about Morrigan? No kid for her? Or Alistair and Anora? Shouldn't they be working on heirs? Or if your Warden married Anora? Or married Alistair? Or the warden was his mistress?

Do people not have kids in the Dragon Age world?

[nightscrawl]

Kulyok wrote...

I think the main difference between DA-world and medieval world is magical contraception. Without it, yep, it's multiple births and Dark Ages all over again, with exceptions few and far between, and powerful women restricted to the roles of, well, Lady Stark, not Brienne.

Although one wonders why Goldanna would want five children, then. She doesn't strike me as a woman who lacks common sense. Lazy writing?

You sort of answered your own question there. Goldanna is poor. She's got "five mouths to feed" and isn't likely to spend any of it on Moon Tea (from Ice and Fire), or on any other methods of contraception that may or may not be available in Thedas. Such is always the case though: women of means have options, the only option that poor women have is to not have sex, which is only half an option since men won't care when they want sex and expect a woman to "do her duty" as a wife. We also don't know how the Chantry looks on such things, and I highly doubt it will be mentioned in game simply because it is such an explosive issue in real life.

Women in Thedas just need to be trained as Bene Gesserit, that will solve everything. They can control their bodies on a molecular level, including fertilization and gender of the fetus. They can also kill you in a single move, so that would be fun.

[R0vena]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

I'm for it. It's not like the OP was saying that having a family should be playable, just that it should be represented that people have families. If your protagonist is only 18 or 19 like the original Warden, then no. But what about your own Warden or Hawk who should be about thirty now? What about Morrigan? No kid for her? Or Alistair and Anora? Shouldn't they be working on heirs? Or if your Warden married Anora? Or married Alistair? Or the warden was his mistress?

Do people not have kids in the Dragon Age world?

There are plenty of people with kids in DA. But the life of the game protagonist who is risking his/her life at every day basis  is hardly suited for raising children.
Better to leave kids for mentioning in the epilogue. And even this - in my opinion - should be optional and up to the player.
The way I see it - they could implement a child in the game as a brief mentioning, coulple of lines  and a kid playing around the house. (Only if player wishes a child, of course.) But will it be enough for players who want a strong emotional connection? And if they'll make it more, involving more story in this particular area, it will be robbing out of content the players who choose not to have any kids.
I'd rather have a better romance, to be honest and leave any possible future children to imagination of the player.

[mousestalker]

If they did go for a Bene Gesserit cult, that could be a lot of fun (scary witchy women up to unknown ends (although that pretty much describes Flemeth and Morrigan)). Such a plot need not involve actual children except as a plot hook or mcguffin.

Child abuse or the potential for child abuse is a no go area for a great many people, myself included. Any game that includes those elements would likely not be a purchase option.

[nightscrawl]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

I'm for it. It's not like the OP was saying that having a family should be playable, just that it should be represented that people have families. If your protagonist is only 18 or 19 like the original Warden, then no. But what about your own Warden or Hawk who should be about thirty now? What about Morrigan? No kid for her? Or Alistair and Anora? Shouldn't they be working on heirs? Or if your Warden married Anora? Or married Alistair? Or the warden was his mistress?

Do people not have kids in the Dragon Age world?

Uh, yeah he was actually talking about the PC having children or a family.

In Bioware games, we have been offered the ability to pursue a Romantic or Love Interest, however we have never seen it been taken to the further step of having any children... A DA game like DA2, which spans seven years in game and has multiple-year gaps in time where a pregnancy/birth could happen with one of your comapnion LIs... I think playing an aggressive, hardcore personality who then turns into a big softie when holding a baby in their arms, or a paragon-type player vowing to fight injustice to make the world safer and better for their new child would be something worth watching or seeing.

I don't think anyone is arguing about other people having children/families. Your own PC having it is another matter. I just don't want them to do the tired trope of starting the story with: husband/wife dead, one kid dead and husband/wife dealing the the loss and other children, grief over dead child breaks up husband/wife, entire family is dead and hero wants revenge. I hate movies/TV like that and will only watch if it's an actor/ess I REALLY like.

mousestalker wrote...

Child abuse or the potential for child abuse is a no go area for a great many people, myself included. Any game that includes those elements would likely not be a purchase option.

I'd think that if they did put something like this in the game it would be integral to plot development like the Dark Ritual, or like Harry Potter being saved by his mother's love or something, or as a tool for motivation like the Hawke family was supposed to be (whether it worked is subjective to each player of course...).

Also, child abuse is pretty broad... would you consider any child's death, no matter how it died, as a breaking point for you? There was already implied rape in DA2 with Lia. Or did you just mean the player doing it themselves?

Modifié par nightscrawl, 29 mai 2012 - 02:18 .

[Curlain]

BobSmith101 wrote...


Some people lived longer, some people still do.Exceptions are not the rule. Now dying young is seen as unusual rather than commonplace. At least in places like the US and UK. Diseases which are now either treatable or rare used to wipe out people in the 100,000's.

That were not really exceptions.  If you survived into your 20's-30's during ancient or medieval times you had a good chance by that point of living into your 50s-60s (baring accident, disease etc).  People in their 60s (even 70s) were not uncommon.  Like I said, the high child mortality rate greatly throws these average ages, they give an inaccurate impression of the actual average lifespan.  If you survived birth and childhood, and no great disasters happen (disease epidemics, acident etc) and had a fair diet then you exceptions of age were not to different from today.

[wright1978]

Not something i want to see in any future game, especially not as a railroaded action as part of romancing. Now dialogue choices about whether Protaganist & LI about the subject and their thoughts on it would be fine.