20 réponses à ce sujet

[swk3000]

I'd like pointers on a Dagger/Dagger Cunning build. My current build is a Longsword/Dagger Strength/Dexterity build, but I came up with it without any input on game mechanics. I'd appreciate input. Here are a few things about what I'm doing now:

I picked up Coup de Grace, so my standard attack pattern is to start off with a Riposte, then backstab until they're out of it. Pop off a Dual Weapon Sweep, then attack normally until they're dead. Finally, I move onto the next enemy, where I use Dirty Fighting, since Riposte is generally still on cooldown.

I realize the usefulness of Stealth, but I never remember to use it. Combine that with the fact that my party members stay out of range of any enemies while I'm in Stealth, and that generally means I get a single backstab on  a single enemy, then get my ass kicked by every enemy in the area while my party is still trying to get close enough to start drawing threat. Therefore, while Stealth is useful, for me it's a death waiting to happen. Unless someone can give me some tips on how to use it without dying *hinthintwinkwinknudgenudge*

I generally max Coercion, but I'm getting the impression that I don't need to with high Cunning, so I'm willing to trade levels in that if I know what the trade-off cut-off is.

I want to be able to pick every chest I come across as soon as I see it. This generally means I get all 4 Deft Hands skills, but if I can save the Talent Points by having a high Cunning, that would be amazing.

Finally, I would love specific information on how to get the Felon's Coat. I tried to pick it up at Level 12 after making the basic Drakescale armor, but Herren didn't have it in stock. How would I go about guaranteeing that he has it?

Keep in mind that I'm on a 360, so no respec mods will work. I have to know exactly what I'm doing on every level up.

[AKOdin]

Nice Title.



Are you willing to restart, or do you want to continue with your current character. Re Coercion, a Cun rogue doesn't need to max it to beat every check in the game. Disco has a nice thread on Rogue Mechanics that lays it out, but the short version is a CUN of 110 would beat every Coercion Cunning Check in the game, while a STR of 110 would do the same for intimidate. Each rank of Coercion reduces the total needed by 25 points.

So, 1 rank coercion means you only need 85 CUN, 2 ranks a CUN of 60. Once you play a bit, you will find out which quests require the most difficult check (Oz, looking at you).

[swk3000]

I'm a restart addict, so restarting isn't a problem.



As for the Coercion thing, how in the hell would you get 110 Cunning?! Is that even possible to do and still have everything else the character would need? Especially on the 360.

[AKOdin]

Re stealth use: Do you have combat stealth or master stealth? If master, you can scout ahead, get behind your favorite nasty, and backstab/stun/backstab until stealth has cooled down, then vanish. The vanishing act will work unless there are elite level mobs in the vicinity. You may want to move away a bit before vanishing, as I've been popped out of stealth by an enemy attack that was started prior to the vanish.



I only picked up the second rank of stealth in the early game, delaying on the later levels until my isolated survivalbility was better (read, better gear and more hp). Early game, I just used stealth for scounting and trap disarming.



Re deft hands: A cun rogue could get buy with only 1 rank of lockpick... but that would mean the patience to not open those hard chests for most of the game. See Disco's rogue mechanics thread.

So, either accept the wasted points to get in earlier, or bring along another rogue (or do a post dungeon sweep, which I think works for everything post Ostagar). Anyway, I think I'm done for now. I'm sure others have more info.

NOTE: Read Disco's mechanics thread! It is very helpful.

[swk3000]

Didn't I just post in the mechanics thread? Most of it went right over my head.

[Morvayn]

No AKOdin is talking about this thread:



http://social.biowar...66/index/243304

[AKOdin]

I don't think 110 CUN is possible. But it is useful to see how the formula works. I generally went in two ranks of coercion, and didn't do a few quests until my CUN level went up as I did. A CUN of 60 is doable and likely a goal anyway of a DPS CUN Rogue.



IF restarting is ok, I didn't see you mention anything about Momentum. I am in the category of Momentum = God. It makes you move faster (ie, stealth failed, run away, run away) and stab quicker (3 backstabs after a dirty fight re just 1).



A true DPS'er can beeline for Momentum and get in in their origin story. I wait a little, as I like to rob everyone in my origin story as I know I will never see them again.



What race are you partial to?

[swk3000]

I'm willing to try Momentum, but at the moment, it would take several levels to do so, and I'm too lazy to do that work at the moment. Especially since Rogues don't seem to get the free Talents like they're supposed to. I'm perfectly willing to give it a try, as it sounds amazing, but I'd have to get there first. Also, I'd want to have several Stamina Regen items to counter-act it's Stamina Drain.

I don't like Stealing. Not enough gain unless you put more work into it than you really need to. I plan to get the first point later on when I've got my character's core setup up and running so I can get Slim Couldry to show up, but beyond that, I could care less.

As for Race, Humans have the highest beginning Cunning, so I'd probably go with that. I may just stick with the City Elf, though, as the ability to make Cailan go, 'You...What?' is just amazing.

Modifié par swk3000, 10 décembre 2009 - 05:29 .

[Javanaut]

AKOdin is pretty much right on the money.

I'm at about level 18-ish(?) on my current rogue. I have about 60 cunning atm (slightly more than that from item bonuses).

I only have one rank of lockpicking and can open every chest.

I have only one rank of stealing and have never failed a steal attempt (but yeah, I can't steal in combat, but I'm too busy stabbing to worry about it).

I only have 2 ranks for coercion and was able to talk my way through everything I wanted to (including the Precious Metals quest for maximum payout).

I have max Stealth as I use traps/disable traps, plus it's the best way to drop aggro (Feign Death's cooldown is quite long.)

Ripote/Dirty Fighting + Coup De Grace is nice, so you don't have to constantly reposition yourself, but other than that you really should be attacking from behind while a warrior holds the enemies' attention. Sounds like you know that already, but just in case...

On stealth, don't break it UNTIL your tank comes up to get aggro from enemies via Threaten/Taunt. Stay stealthed until the enemy is focused on the tank, THEN attack. Also, a nice trick you can use is to chuck bombs and you won't break stealth if you have rank 4. (works in rank 3 for certain enemies, but not always). You can do that while, your tank is running up. It really gives you the edge when fighting large groups.

One way I like to get rid of magi fast is to stealth up behind the mage. Have Wynne cast Glyph of Paralysis on the mage, and then backstab away (Momentum is on). This is all happening AS my warrior is running up to get aggro with threaten/taunt. If any of the enemies ignore the tank and starts attacking me, I just hit stealth after the mage is dead (doesn't take long), and I lose all aggro. They then run towards the warrior(s) at that point. Stealth is great for getting enemies to stop attacking you. Why the glyph of Paralysis instead of a regular paralysis spells? The Glyph can cast through walls and around corners, while the regular paralysis spells requires a 'bolt' to be shot.

Felon's Coat..
I don't remember exactly what triggers him to upgrade his stock so that you have access to the coat. But I do know that once you've turned in the second set of scales (and ****** off Wade's partner) you will be banned from the store and unable to buy anything. At that point the only thing you can do is turn in the final dragon scale for the last set of armor. So if you want to buy anything from Wade's, do it before you turn in the second set of drake scales.

Modifié par Javanaut, 10 décembre 2009 - 05:31 .

[swk3000]

My problem is that with Stealth, I activate it before I get into range of the enemy, so my party members all automatically stop moving just outside the detection range. Because I'm closest, and my party is so far away, dropped stealth = death. Especially before Level 8, which is the earliest I can pick up Combat Stealth. And since Lockpicking has always been a higher priority for me, I never pick up Combat Stealth.

[AKOdin]

Hmm... on PC my rogue gets the bonus talent at Grey Warden-hood and Arl Eamon's recovery. Are there others?



Momentum doesn't require stamina regen items to be viable. Stealth behind, attack, toggle Momentum, and the next attack is sped up. It doesn't require a "charging up" animation like some talents do.

IMHO, momentum is why a lot of rogues don't get riposte until later if at all. Dirty Fighting is cheaper in temrs of stamina and talent points, and I think is less likely to be resisted (anectotal evidence only). Riposte use limits Momentum use in the early game because your stamina pool hasn't grown much.

[swk3000]

As far as I know, those are the only two bonus talent points you get. As a note, you also get an extra Attribute point, as well.



As for the Momentum thing, I realize it can be used without Stamina Regen items, but I leave my sustainables on at all times, so without some sort of Stamina Regen item to counteract it's drain, it loses a few points in my book.

[AKOdin]

I have yet to get Combat Stealth before level 13 or 14... there are just other things I'd rather have.



If you don't care about stealing, then I'd get to a skill point into coercion, 3 into Combat Training, and a second into coercion. That should take you to level 8ish, right?



Re talents: As a CUN rogue, you want lethality. It makes you actually lethal, as opposed to annoying. Barring an insight, that should be your level 8 talent pick. Thing is, the rest of that branch sucks. So, no reason to take it any sooner than necessary. If you have unlocked any specs (have you?), you might want to take Deadly strike at level 6 because you will be getting a spec talent at 7.



Hmm... how far have you got in the game proper? You did mention you were a restart addict.

[swk3000]

I completed the game as an Arcane Warrior through sheer bull-headedness. I have yet to get very far with any other character, and I'm probably going to do another Arcane Warrior since I have a better idea what I'm doing with it, but that's for later.



I have all Specs, as I made one of my early warriors make it a point to get them when I knew I'd screwed things up with that character. Couldn't get Blood mage, but I picked it up with my Arcane Warrior, so I have them all.



If I go with a City Elf, I start with a point in Coercion, so at Level 7, I'd have the 2 Coercion, 3 Combat Training. Except for one thing: I've got the Memory Band DLC, so I get an extra Skill Point whenever I want because of the Fomari Tome. That means I'd have 2 Coercion and 3 Combat Training at Level 5, instead. Assuming I'm doing my math right, of course.



Lethality at Level 8 is a must, and Momentum as soon as possible is also a must. Got it. I'd have to choose a Human or Dwarven Noble to get it, but that's okay. Probably go with Human, since I haven't seen the extra dialogue with it for the later stage of the game.

[Javanaut]

Yes, the party stops moving once you're in stealth and in combat range. Once you are in position, just select the rest of your party and tell them what to do.

Modifié par Javanaut, 10 décembre 2009 - 06:13 .

[swk3000]

<sub>Just tried Momentum out. All I can say is...



o.0;



Oh, and if you see some wierd tags around this post, don't mind them. Seeing if some mark-up I'm used to using works here. If you don't see them, ignore this.</sub>

[AKOdin]

Yes, momentum is a game changer in terms of how I used my rogue. Lethality is only a "must" at level 8 if you want to max DPS- which I think you do.



As far as stats (since I think you asked about that earlier), the tower of magi and the town of Honnewhatever are your friend. The Tower because of all the Fade bonuses you can pick up (5 cun, yes please) and the town because of the ring and the helm.



From a min max perspective, going to Oz to get the Key to the City (and nothing else) is also helpful to hit that 20 STR for equip without "wasting" stat points.



My human rogue started with 11 STR, got 4 in the fade, and then used the Key to the City (+2 STR), the cheap belt from Teagin the traveling dwarf merch (+1 STR) and the Festival Ring from Honn (another +2) to get 20 STR. Then I put on the Helm of Honn and took off the cheap belt.



So no points in STR.



No points in CON/Will/Mag either, b/c you just don't need them for anything.



Dex is just enough to get momentum, which requires 24. B/c you get 4 in the fade (I think?), you only need to pump it to 20 if you can wait that long (I can't... so I pump to 24 early).

Certain daggers and equip need more, but I always met those reqs with equip or spec unlocks by the time I could buy them.



Cun is the rest for me.



NOTE: Disco said he is going to add some sort of build layout to his OP's in the mechanics thread... Should be pretty good.

[swk3000]

Here's what I'm looking at right now.



Character Creation: Dual Weapon Sweep, Flurry

Level 2: Momentum

Level 3: Deft Hands

Level 4: Combat Movement

Level 5: Stealth, Below the Belt

Level 6: Deadly Strike

Level 7: Assassin's Mark of Death

Level 8: Lethality

Level 9: Coup de Grace

Level 10: Stealthy Item Use

Level 11: Combat Stealth

Level 12: Assassin's Exploit Weakness



That's what I've got so far. I've already got the Attributes I need for all the talents, so I'm probably going to start throwing skill points into Survival. Might actually pick up Stealing and give it a try, just to see how it works out.

[Morvayn]

Cunning dagger rogue (human)
1- Dirty Fighting + DW training + Deft hands [COMBAT 1] [POISON 1] [COERCION 1] (STR 11, DEX 20, CUN 15) 
2- Flurry  [COMBAT 2]   (DEX 23)                                                
3- DW finesse       (DEX 26) **note 1**
4- Momentum     [COMBAT 3]                      (STR 14)                          
5- Below the belt + Improved tools (grey wardens)       (STR 16, CUN 16)                                                    
6- Deadly strike      [COERCION 2]                    (CUN MAX IT)     
7- Mark of death (assassin)
8- Lethality           [COMBAT 4]                                 
9- Combat movement
10- Coup de grace     [COERCION 3]                                          
11- whirlwind  **note 2**
12- Exploit weakness    [NEW SKILL]**note 3**                                     
13- Save 1
14- Dueling (duelist) + Upset balance **note 4**
15- Keen defense
16- Pinpoint strike
Have fun!!
Of course you gonna get more talents than that before level 16 (at least 2 books and 1 from quest) I suggest you change your mind about stealth and put those points in it.
Final stats:
Str: 16 +4 fade = 20
Dex: 26 +4 fade + 4 specs = 34
Wil: 12 +4 fade = 16
Mag: 12 +2 fade = 14
Cun: MAX!
Con: 10 +2 fade = 12

**note 1** Dex 26 is needed to wield the Egde but you can stop at 24 dex (needed for momentum) if you don't have that DLC.
**note 2** Assuming you went to the circle tower for the fade bonuses. Dex 30 is needed for whirlwind
**note 3** Coercion 3 and hugh cunning is more than enough for persuasion checks. You can even stop at 2 if you wish. Personnaly I would startpumping survival at level 12 and leave poisonmaking to Zevran. Trapmaking is another option especially if you change your mind about stealth.
**note 4** Or bard spec and talents if you prefer.

Last note: As pointed out by AKOdin, you can skip the str boost from lvl 4-5 if you get all the +strength gear fast.

[swk3000]

I do have the Edge. I'll probably restart and pump 2 more points into Dexterity so I can wield it right out of the Origin. If Momentum weren't so amazing, I'd get Deft Hands earlier, but I have to make some trade-offs, so...



I like the Deulist spec, but the Exploit Weakness is, to me, a must-have. Extra damage based on an already high Cunning when Backstabbing? Yes, please.



I actually like the auto-backstab provided by Coup de Grace, so I'm going to stick with it. It works for me, even if it's not exactly optimal, so...



I think I've got everything figured out to where I'd like. Thank you for all your help, AKOdin. Everyone else, I appreciate all your input, even if I didn't take it. It will be something to think about on another play-through. Thank you all.

[De Bartman]

swk3000 wrote...

Here's what I'm looking at right now.

Character Creation: Dual Weapon Sweep, Flurry
Level 2: Momentum
Level 3: Deft Hands
Level 4: Combat Movement
Level 5: Stealth, Below the Belt
Level 6: Deadly Strike
Level 7: Assassin's Mark of Death
Level 8: Lethality
Level 9: Coup de Grace
Level 10: Stealthy Item Use
Level 11: Combat Stealth
Level 12: Assassin's Exploit Weakness

That's what I've got so far. I've already got the Attributes I need for all the talents, so I'm probably going to start throwing skill points into Survival. Might actually pick up Stealing and give it a try, just to see how it works out.

you can't get Momentum at lvl 2. I don't see how you're gonna get to the 24 dex requirement. and that's already assuming your first two skills are Combat Training 2+3