80 réponses à ce sujet

[Heals.like.Jesus]

First of all, I cant believe you made 10 attempts and did not remember to show what difficulty you were playing before the fight. For me, you did it on easy, claiming it is nightmare, until you prove me wrong.

So you just managed to stay alive, big whoop. Doesnt do anything to make 2handers any better. I have 1 of each class taken on nightmare playthroughs, and i can say that while my 2hander was visually most satisfying and I play 2handers in general, he was without a doubt the weakest of the bunch.
Followed by the momentium rune/poison/enchant who, by the way, took out that dragon within a 1 and a half minute of constantly interrupted backstabbing.
And finally with the mage I just opened every door with enemies behind it, then spell might-ed and wisp, fireball, cone of cold (at +25/25% extra damage) and every white enemy in the room is frozen at half health while burning. And as an arcane warrior, I did more damage with a 1hander than a 2hander, and I finished the mage run yesterday with 0 deaths achievement, courtesy of shimmering shield, rock armor, etc .

Duel with the shield warrior went similar. With my 2hander, despite being immune to his knockdowns I only beat the guy after chugging many potions, because by the time my swing landed, I had to drink again, before i did damage. With rogue, If i was lucky to get concentrated venom to stun him, I could keep him locked till he's down and even if that was not the case, i only needed 2-3 potions to deal with him, no stuns.

With the mage he never got a chance to move form his initial spot, much less damage me.

So yes, 2handers are gimped and no amount of videos can prove it otherwise, because If same video was done with another class, it would've been a cleaner and easier kill 100%.

Killing a bear with a knife, doesnt mean the knife is better than the shotgun.

Modifié par Heals.like.Jesus, 11 décembre 2009 - 06:34 .

[DragonRageGT]

Rectifying attack numbers:

Alistair - 109
Sten - 111
Leliana - 127
Hero - 145 - (with 98 damage when Berserker is active) (over 320 stamina when everything is deactivated) (only 80 hours gameplay time to get there and still tthings to do before the landsmeet)

And here's the most powerful foe slained right before Gaxkang's house... (by the time the site update from Flemeth it will probably go straight to Gaxkang)

http://www.leoalli.com.br/DA_Rage.jpg

Modifié par RageGT, 11 décembre 2009 - 06:30 .

[DragonRageGT]

Heals.like.Jesus wrote...

First of all, I cant believe you made 10 attempts and did not remember to show what difficulty you were playing before the fight. For me, you did it on easy, claiming it is nightmare, until you prove me wrong.

...stuff...

Killing a bear with a knife, doesnt mean the knife is better than the shotgun.

First, you're just playing blind don't you? The Options screen with Nightmare on it is right there at the start of the fight and it is unedited. Fraps cutted it at 4GB and even so I would not cheat it.

Second, I never claimed that 2 handers are better than anything. Just that for me they are the most fun! Killed faster with a mage? been there, done that... I wanted a no mage party, so what? Rogue? I like them too, pitty there is no mplayer for me to chop their heads with a 2 hander!

I am a public person, not famous at all but still public, with my own domain and a musical carreer in my country, not big at all but still, my very independent unlabeled unsigned CD sold out all over the world thanks to the internet. And I have as a principle, thanks to my 90 years old parents,  to be one of those who would not cheat in a game, not cheat on my wife, not accept bribes in my goverment position, not pay bribes when speeding with my car and definitely not lying on the internet... I just don't need to. And it feels right!

Modifié par RageGT, 11 décembre 2009 - 06:44 .

[Heals.like.Jesus]

First, you're just playing blind don't you? The Options screen with Nightmare on it is right there at the start of the fight and it is unedited. Fraps cutted it at 4GB and even so I would not cheat it.

I did not see the option menu with the diffuclty the first time i watched, but now that I have, it kinda looks like the video clipped after closing the difficulty screen. Just sayin'

Second, I never claimed that 2 handers are better than anything. Just that for me they are the most fun! Killed faster with a mage? been there, done that... I wanted a no mage party, so what? Rogue? I like them too, pitty there is no mplayer for me to chop their heads with a 2 hander!

You claimed 2h warriors werent gimped. Considerin everything else said on these forums, and my own statement and experience, if 2h warriors are indeed working as intended then either 2handers are inferior or everything else is overpowered. No matter what feat you accomplish with a 2hander, the other classes will always do better at it. Sad but true, as I am fond of 2handed warriors.

I am a public person, not famous at all but still public, with my own domain and a musical carreer in my country, not big at all but still, my very independent unlabeled unsigned CD sold out all over the world thanks to the internet. And I have as a principle, thanks to my 90 years old parents,  to be one of those who would not cheat in a game, not cheat on my wife, not accept bribes in my goverment position, not pay bribes when speeding with my car and definitely not lying on the internet... I just don't need to. And it feels right!

I really cant see how any of that is any rllevant to the game or the topic. Awesome self-advertisement, though.

Modifié par Heals.like.Jesus, 11 décembre 2009 - 07:10 .

[Faerell Gustani]

Rylor Tormtor wrote...

fro7k wrote...

THere's no question that they're inferior to dual-wielders. Each bonus damage from runes gets multiplied by the rate you hit.

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.

It's not Anecdotal.  The fact that rune damage is applied per swing is a fact.  And the fact that DW swings several times faster than a 2-hander is also a fact.  And the fact that DW get an ability (momentum) that further increased their swing speed is also a fact.

So mathematically, if my 2-H warrior is going to swing once every 1.5 seconds for 70 damage + 10 rune damage for a total of 80 damage or so.
My dual wielder can swing 3-4 times in that same timespan for 30 damage a piece +10 rune damage for a total of 40 damage per hit totaling 120-160 damage.

While I disagree that 2-H warriors are useless, the information that DW are superior damage dealers is a fact and not a all anecdotal.  The benefit to 2-H warriors is primarily the Indominable and Stunning Blows.  The two Sunder abilities are great for the damage boost, but they do not match up to a DW who has momentum up with damage runes loaded.

[DragonRageGT]

Heals.like.Jesus wrote...

I did not see the option menu with the diffuclty the first time i watched, but now that I have, it kinda looks like the video clipped after closing the difficulty screen. Just sayin'

HLJ, please! Save the video and scan it or whatever it is they do to know a fraud from the real thing! If you want me to prove it that is... I could send you the original... only 383 MB .. from the over 6 GB original 3 pieces plus the cut/paste in the end as I can not use the windows movie maker other than the Live on in my win7 and it's limited. (Edit: you can easily see the background and hear the ESC key being hit before closing of the Options screen... I'm a RTS player that love hotkeys ... I don't use mouse much for clicking stuff I have working keys amd I love Blizzard games - other than WOW which I never played and never will - also because they have hotkeys for every single menu command)

As for the advertisement, well, one does what one can.. although I doubt anyone here would care much for my pop/rock songs sung in portuguese or for my video clip that MTV wanted 50k/month to show and I obviously didn't pay! (or I might be singing them in english) I do sing "stuff it up your ***" in the video but you really would need to know portuguese to get it or to feel offended by it if you think it might be addressed to you!

Modifié par RageGT, 11 décembre 2009 - 07:31 .

[Eshme]

RageGT wrote...

Eshme wrote...

It is a bit weird, if the Dragon is supposed to be strong, but you see it in the video it is strong, feels like its a different  game opposed to what i saw. My group could barely hit, it was mostly 1's floating around for a boss like that ,it is weird that this is the same dragon as in your video. Yet we both killed it. It didnt even show up for anyone at strongest enemy slain here. This would be a joke when i had your group, but at the same time looks misplaced that such a weak group has no problem as well.

"... is supposed to be strong, but you see it in the video it is strong..." ... redundancy or you tried to say it is NOT strong in the video? ... It is very strong I assure you and at level 20 it recorded the kill as my strongest enemy vanquished...

Not sure myself. I dont deny it is strong, and seeing your group it makes sense. But if you saw mine ,the dragon would laugh its ass off, and it seemed so out of place. For me it was all show, and nothing behind it. Ok when i heard this is the strongest enemy in game i wondered, because i got it just in the beginning and came across many that are more difficult.
How do you explain that?

[DragonRageGT]

Character level at the time you spawn the monsters in this game will directly affect their own level too.

That's why I made a point to show when I unlocked the area... some people might unlock it at low level, spawn the Dragon, leave and go back some 10 levels later for an easy kill and "roxor movie of a leet player in action"... well, I'm certainly no elite player but I'm no cheater either!

[Darth_Shizz]

 I'm going to offend people even more here by posting my own High Dragon 2hander attempt



BEGONE HEATHEN 2 HANDERS I SAY!! 


P.s. why do so many seem to take offence? All the guy said, is that 2 handers aren't gimped, and provided a video showing this. If your definition of gimped is "does not do something as well as other classes", then with that logic, every class but a mage is gimped

Dual-wielders suck.

Mages rule.

Discuss.

Modifié par Darth_Shizz, 11 décembre 2009 - 08:49 .

[DragonRageGT]

heh.. I have your video open in another window too! Was just replaying it! Good one! If I had CoC in my party Sten probably could be saved or even res'ed with Revival... but the point of not having mages is just that game is still beatable without them... and I kinda like that... so far!

Oh.. and different levels, different Dragons... she might have resisted your CoC too... just noticed you took her down at 13... just as nice anyway and a quick clean movie! That's a +5!

Modifié par RageGT, 11 décembre 2009 - 09:00 .

[fro7k]

I fought high dragon as soon as she was accessable. Was second hardest battle after a swarm of guards that ambushed me in Denerim for stealing.

[Darth_Shizz]

RageGT wrote...

heh.. I have your video open in another window too! Was just replaying it! Good one! If I had CoC in my party Sten probably could be saved or even res'ed with Revival... but the point of not having mages is just that game is still beatable without them... and I kinda like that... so far!

Oh.. and different levels, different Dragons... she might have resisted your CoC too... just noticed you took her down at 13... just as nice anyway and a quick clean movie! That's a +5!

Being seven levels higher would've just meant having 21 more magic anyway...no-one can resist MY CoC :innocent:
Mages and healing isn't really a necessity either, as you've said. Replacing mages with archer rogues + traps would be more than fine. Having said that, I don't mind using mages so much. I just tend to avoid the aoe damage spells that wipe mobs before you've even entered a room. In fact, I've only used blizzard the once in well over 100 hours of play, and that was to get myself through a fire-trapped room full of archers

As for my CoC, that only comes out on special occasions 

Modifié par Darth_Shizz, 11 décembre 2009 - 09:12 .

[bucnasty22]

Gecon wrote...

bucnasty22 wrote...

I heard mages were supposedly great, I kept dieing at the very beginning so I quit and started a rogue

Err how do you manage to die on a mage ? Thats kinda tricky really.

Im bad I guess

[fro7k]

Another thing that may have gone unnoticed about dual-wielded weapons is that bonuses to damage and armour penetration applies to the weapons of both hands, doubling the benefit. This includes bonuses from the weapons themselves. One weapon gives +3 damage and +3.5 armour penetration; both this weapon and the one in your other hand get this bonus!

[Bibdy]

Staylost wrote...

The 2 hander has only one thing going for it. It remains that Indomitable is the best talent in the game, being that it is extremely useful against the strongest enemies in the game, and is not reproduceable by any other spec.

I would wager that indomitable is not enough for any powergamer to ever have a reason to choose a 2 hander, but it makes them fun for me to play.

 

Not entirely true. W&S Warriors get the Knock-down immunity that Indomitable gets if they activate Shield Wall and have Shield Expertise. It doesn't have the Stun-immunity tacked on, but there aren't that many creatures which stun. I find my tank getting knocked-down constantly by Dragons far more irritating than the occasionally AOE roar stun thing they do.

[fro7k]

There is a certain 2-handed talent that gives a huge undocumented bonus to damage.

[Eshme]

"Character level at the time you spawn the monsters in this game will directly affect their own level too."



Means the dragon was affected by my level? Or who? Maybe it had weaker attacks because i didnt have so many HP, for example its weak fire attack hit me for 1 point of damage all the time. And it had a occasional melee attack which did 100 or so? Bad balance for a fiery dragon. And i also only did 1 point of damage mostly, so it took rather long. Few times the dragon stopped doing anything, because i was low level? Anyhow what i meant to say is, mine was totally different, and quiet the dissapointment seeing that i cheated my way in.



to Darth_Shizz :



Haha did you not put any points to anything but strenght? Dont you have bad sideeffects due missing other skills? Like dexterity ,chance to hit or evade is very low? Or constitution? Well at least you beat the dragon.

[Darth_Shizz]

Eshme wrote...
to Darth_Shizz :

Haha did you not put any points to anything but strenght? Dont you have bad sideeffects due missing other skills? Like dexterity ,chance to hit or evade is very low? Or constitution? Well at least you beat the dragon.

I can't say that I did really. 2 handers are going to get hit anyway, so really, I just rely on a mixture of Sten pulling agro from my PC, 2x sweeps every 20 seconds, a crapload of stuns and massive armour. 

Dexterity is largely useless for a 2-hander, as strength contributes to exactly the same amount of attack as dex does, whilst also giving you A LOT of damage (multiply str rating by 1.1/1.25 depending on your weapon). As I said above, you're far better off relying on your CC ability and massive armour as a 2 hander. Constitution is neither here nor there really. I personally prefer the benefits of str over 5 health per point of constitution or a minimal amount of defence from dexterity, especially considering Gear can pretty much make up for any of those shortcomings somewhere down the line, and Wynne has glyphs/auras to up my defence at will

Modifié par Darth_Shizz, 12 décembre 2009 - 12:55 .

[Eshme]

oOO didnt know that. So this is better than doing balance? Constitution for example is counterproductive if used even the slightest bit, in that the Armor accomodates it much more, the less you have / spend? Essentially what you said.

[Staylost]

Bibdy wrote...

Staylost wrote...

The 2 hander has only one thing going for it. It remains that Indomitable is the best talent in the game, being that it is extremely useful against the strongest enemies in the game, and is not reproduceable by any other spec.

I would wager that indomitable is not enough for any powergamer to ever have a reason to choose a 2 hander, but it makes them fun for me to play.

 

Not entirely true. W&S Warriors get the Knock-down immunity that Indomitable gets if they activate Shield Wall and have Shield Expertise. It doesn't have the Stun-immunity tacked on, but there aren't that many creatures which stun. I find my tank getting knocked-down constantly by Dragons far more irritating than the occasionally AOE roar stun thing they do.

Yeah, shield warriors are pretty awesome, but as good as Shield Wall is (one of the top five talents when combined with the two passives that buff it), the Knockdown Immunity is only for a direct knockdown attack. Or so it says. Can a 2 hander with Shield Wall fully buffed be knocked down by a dragon or a fireball? < This is really a question, not a taunt.

[RamsenC]

I know this isn't common knowledge so I'll bring it up again. HASTE STACKS, so if you have two mages running haste and attack with abilities after each swing you WILL do insane dps. Even one mage running haste is fine, just not as insane. Also my 2h warrior with points in STR only was the tank for my party. If you use the wide array of CC available to a 2h champion/templar you are unstoppable. You will also be one-shotting whites with the right equips and out dpsing DW on bosses, where dps actually matters. Otherwise being immune to stuns/knockdowns/ and potentially spells, while having an array of friendy fire free cc is better than some dps, especially if you are the tank.



Feels like people just don't know how to play anything that isn't brain dead. DW warrior is great for your AI companion though, I'll give it that.

[Darth_Shizz]

Eshme wrote...

oOO didnt know that. So this is better than doing balance? Constitution for example is counterproductive if used even the slightest bit, in that the Armor accomodates it much more, the less you have / spend? Essentially what you said.

Basically:

1 str = 0.5 attack, 1*1.1/1.25 damage, 0.5 physical resistance, as well as making it more difficult for your talent debuffs to be resisted. It also adds to coercion checks

1 con = 5 health, 0.5 physical resistance

10 constitution (50 health and 5 PR) is nice, but 5 attack/5+ damage + less chance for the enemy to resist your talent is far nicer when you consider your stun/knockdown immunity + a near infinite supply of poultices. Another thing to bear in mind is gear. Consider the blood dragon set gives you a raw +50 to health, and a certain purchasable ring gives you the same in con, it's pretty easy to make up the health differences elsewhere. Either way, as a rule, damage mitigation (crowd control/armour/dead bodies)> health...at least in this game. 

Modifié par Darth_Shizz, 12 décembre 2009 - 02:20 .

[Darth_Shizz]

RamsenC wrote...

I know this isn't common knowledge so I'll bring it up again. HASTE STACKS, so if you have two mages running haste and attack with abilities after each swing you WILL do insane dps. 

I knew this, though, I've been wondering lately whether or not this works in conjunction with blood thirst? Would blood thirst have a similar effect as haste + momentum, where taking you over the swing timer "cap" leads to buggy crap? Or do they all work together happily?

Incidentally, I've also heard that precise striking allows momentum and haste to stack and work as intended ;p

Modifié par Darth_Shizz, 12 décembre 2009 - 02:26 .

[RamsenC]

No blood thirst will cause you to go over the cap, but you can run one haste and blood thirst fine. I tanked with my dps 2h warrior though so I didn't need to be losing 12 hp/s.

Yes it is true precise striking+momentum+haste do work nicely. Perfect for your AI warrior partner if you run one haste and blood thirst. Although if you run double haste and run two 2h warriors you can use earthquake willy nilly

Modifié par RamsenC, 12 décembre 2009 - 02:47 .

[Rylor Tormtor]

Faerell Gustani wrote...

Rylor Tormtor wrote...

fro7k wrote...

THere's no question that they're inferior to dual-wielders. Each bonus damage from runes gets multiplied by the rate you hit.

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.

It's not Anecdotal.  The fact that rune damage is applied per swing is a fact.  And the fact that DW swings several times faster than a 2-hander is also a fact.  And the fact that DW get an ability (momentum) that further increased their swing speed is also a fact.

So mathematically, if my 2-H warrior is going to swing once every 1.5 seconds for 70 damage + 10 rune damage for a total of 80 damage or so.
My dual wielder can swing 3-4 times in that same timespan for 30 damage a piece +10 rune damage for a total of 40 damage per hit totaling 120-160 damage.

While I disagree that 2-H warriors are useless, the information that DW are superior damage dealers is a fact and not a all anecdotal.  The benefit to 2-H warriors is primarily the Indominable and Stunning Blows.  The two Sunder abilities are great for the damage boost, but they do not match up to a DW who has momentum up with damage runes loaded.

I was referring to the first part about the "no question". You are completely right, you do get more rune effects with dual wielding. My 2H warrior was doing quite a more than 70 damage a hit. Also, over the long run, relying on the rune bonus damage can be less effective thanks to monster resists, since you lose a much larger chunk when you hit a cold/fire/electricty immune monster. You could always have a second set of different'y runed weapons, but then you are hogging 4 great one handed swords giving the big ole' middle finger to poor Alistair.

Again, with a combat parser and extended data, this question will not be satisifactorly answered (or at least it won't for me). However, that is missing the point, as this is not a DPS contest. 2H warriors are just as viable as DW, and more so in some situations, in the same manner than DW are superior in particular cases as well.

Modifié par Rylor Tormtor, 12 décembre 2009 - 04:40 .