200 réponses à ce sujet

[Berkilak]

Even when futuristic sci fi entirely avoids religion, it is still making a pretty strong comment on it.

[Naughty Bear]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Naughty Bear wrote...


Yes it is around but what about if it became more prominent? Like plastic-surgery for example.

The average folk just walking into clinics and having designer babies, changing their genes or having a cybernetic limb like Deus Ex.

How would you feel if it was like that? And just wondering if you don't mind, what is your religion?

I'm a Christian.

1. I can't say I support it; I feel it's a bit unethical. However this stems not from my religion, but from my...view of humanity, I guess. I feel our problems, our weaknesses, make us who we are, and deliberately creating a child designed to one's expectations:

A. kind of flies in the face of that
B. is horribly selfish: who is the parent to say what another human being should be like? Do you own them? At that point they seem more like your slave than your child.
C. Will cause the child huge mental problems growing up. Miranda, anyone?

2. Changing their genes for what? This is too general.

3. I see nothing wrong with it. In fact, I'm actually planning to write a...not a thesis, but something like one, titled "A Dissertation on Human Vivisection" that goes into how we could essentially be all machine.

Yes, that sounds kind of true. Designing the child in your view, the perfect child while the child who will eventually grow up, may disagree.

Genes as in intelligence, physical appearence or perhaps not in Humans but in animals just like how we breed cows together who have desirable traits, but instead in a lab for Humans and animals.

Would you agree with cybernetics then? Full limb replacement?

[Cutlass Jack]

I only think it should stay away from 'real' religions. I'm all for completely fictional alien/future religions.

I absolutely loved visiting the temple on Thessia with Javik along. Was fun to watch him poke holes in their religion. That same bit done on earth with a real earth religion would be tacky.

[Hathur]

i'm not a person of faith (agnostic by definition i suppose).. but if you are a person of faith, doesn't it make sense to you that your deity gave you (us, humans) intelligence with the ability to improve our way of life? why would your god create a species intelligent enough to improve themselves through technology if he / she / it didn't want you to do have the option to do it?

seems kinda silly to me to think that a god would make us smart enough to improve ourselves with medicine and technology and then forbid us from doing it.

[Kr0gan]

Berkilak wrote...

Even when futuristic sci fi entirely avoids religion, it is still making a pretty strong comment on it.

I like this comment, I didn't think of that.

Maybe the way of ME was the more neutral way of depicting religion in the future that they coud think of in the moment.

[NRieh]

Ashly was religious in ME1, and she put it very well, imo. Shame I can't remember exact quote, but it was something like "Are people blind? How can you look out at this galaxy and not believe in something? Did they ever look out of the window?" Also Mr. Bathia (ME1) seemed to follow some rituals (no direct mentioning, but as he spoke about some "preparations" for the funeral of his wife, somehow I thought he was following some eastern religion)

So, religions do exist in MEU, and I'm ok with it. Same as Ash shows us that some classical literature is still remembered well. All of it makes MEU feel more alive, imo.

[Reorte]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

I only think it should stay away from 'real' religions. I'm all for completely fictional alien/future religions.

I absolutely loved visiting the temple on Thessia with Javik along. Was fun to watch him poke holes in their religion. That same bit done on earth with a real earth religion would be tacky.

Only if it doesn't fit the character (or suddenly come up with religious beliefs for a character just in order to knock them). I wouldn't have a problem with either Javik mocking a real world religion or Ashley defending one. It would only get tacky if it was handled in exactly the same way as Thessia, i.e. "You people have been worshipping protheans!" I could understand why that would be avoided however, but I find it rather sad that writers feel that they should avoid them. As I said earlier, IMO anything goes as long as it's the characters trying to ram their opinions down the throats of other characters rather than the author trying to ram them down ours.

[Naughty Bear]

Logan Cloud wrote...

Well I'm Christian (loosley) and I support anything that could advance humanity. You know, within reason of course.

I don't agree with someone removing an arm and replacing it with a robotic arm just to improve themselves. If you lose a limb however, I'd fully support them getting a new one.

As I said with the MGS4 reference, the concept of nanomachines is also fascinating. They could make life better for the typical human being. Able to heal wounds faster. Allowing you to register information and display it through your brain. Even lock weapons from people who shouldn't be using them.

They could be used as a means of control however, which obviously isn't good, so technological augmentations on humans will ALWAYS have to be limited.

Your like me. I was christened and we are a Christian family however we don't really practise it or how can i say it, not bother with it.

However i am an atheist personally and i fully support anything that advances our species. And unfortunately, you are correct about it would be limited for us common people and we would be heavily monitored.

The more advancements we make, the more we become more watched and spied upon.

Modifié par Naughty Bear, 25 mai 2012 - 07:32 .

[DiebytheSword]

Hathur wrote...

i'm not a person of faith (agnostic by definition i suppose).. but if you are a person of faith, doesn't it make sense to you that your deity gave you (us, humans) intelligence with the ability to improve our way of life? why would your god create a species intelligent enough to improve themselves through technology if he / she / it didn't want you to do have the option to do it?

seems kinda silly to me to think that a god would make us smart enough to improve ourselves with medicine and technology and then forbid us from doing it.

Being a person of faith, I see no religious reason to avoid self improvement and encroaching on "playing god" so long as you understand what it is you are messing with.

Custom designing lifeforms, like pollution eating bacteria, isn't objectionable because you are playing god, it's objectionable because you don't know what releasing a manufactured bug into the ecosystem will do.

Same with modifying people, for now that isn't a huge issue, but what happens when that modification carries through several generations?

What happens when a collection of superior traits ends up in one spot?  Are we now talking about possibly engineering something like Kahn Noonien Singh, and his followers?

What happens to mundane, unaltered humans?

In my own personal opinion, based on faith and study of my religion, the ability to self determine was always there, but specific knowledge that God wanted to keep to himself was kept with the "apple".  Its direct consequence was becoming more like God, in this way playing God kind of comes with the territory.

The forbidden fruit is a lot like the proverbial genie in the bottle, we can't go back.  Instead, we must go forward; with caution or ill-advised haste being the two options before us.

What this means for Mass Effect and its environs, isn't much.  I've seen people say that religion collapsed, and that UFO = religion disproved, but none of that is implicitly true.  Mass Effect artfully sidestepped the issue and left it open to the player where Shepard stood in regards.  I liked that part a lot, and I'm glad that it was not intrusive or dismissive.

[RukiaKuchki]

I think the two go together. Religion is one way of trying understand our place and find our way in a big scary place, and many science fiction themes are very similar i.e. people struggling to adapt to/understand things that they can't explain, control and/or are afraid of. Religion..or at least quasi-religious themes of identity, duty, sacrifice, ignorance...creeps into most science fiction. In the case of Mass Effect, humanity has branched out into the stars, technology has become the new religion...most follow blindly but there is, for some at least, that sense that what you see is only the surface of something much bigger and more malevolent, something that the individual is powerless against.

[Grimwick]

I'm not 100% against religion being within a story. If it is done well, does not emphasise religion as the 'better morality' or insist on creating some sort of weird allegory then I'm mostly ok with it. In fact, I do enjoy hearing references to some parts of religion as cultural references.

But most of the time I believe that religion doesn't have a right to be in a sci-fi by itself. It needs to have a good reason to be there.

[Naughty Bear]

RukiaKuchki wrote...

I think the two go together. Religion is one way of trying understand our place and find our way in a big scary place, and many science fiction themes are very similar i.e. people struggling to adapt to/understand things that they can't explain, control and/or are afraid of. Religion..or at least quasi-religious themes of identity, duty, sacrifice, ignorance...creeps into most science fiction. In the case of Mass Effect, humanity has branched out into the stars, technology has become the new religion...most follow blindly but there is, for some at least, that sense that what you see is only the surface of something much bigger and more malevolent, something that the individual is powerless against.

Hmm, never thought of it that way...

Modifié par Naughty Bear, 25 mai 2012 - 07:41 .

[Subject M]

Naughty Bear wrote...

In majority of sci-fi media, we are dealing with themes of Transhumanism, bioengineering, alien life, artficial life and many others that could resolve around the creation of species or the galaxy.

Religion is quite a complex topic and probably a taboo. And with so many religions each with their own view on how we should live our lives, is religion too much trouble and be ignored in future sci-fi media and in the future or is it important to sci-fi and our future?

Is and would Religion get in the way of such advancements in reality and in sci-fi? Just been wondering on how religions in the Mass Efect universe would deal with the everyday man/woman having implants and genetic engineering, AI's taking part in everyday life and actual alien life walking the streets.

How would religion accept this if we came into contact with an actual Mass Relay?

Religion is too wide of a concept to be of much use in answering such a question. Isnt religion basically just an umbrella term of belief in something that can not be proven?

[Volus Warlord]

Subject M wrote...

Naughty Bear wrote...

In majority of sci-fi media, we are dealing with themes of Transhumanism, bioengineering, alien life, artficial life and many others that could resolve around the creation of species or the galaxy.

Religion is quite a complex topic and probably a taboo. And with so many religions each with their own view on how we should live our lives, is religion too much trouble and be ignored in future sci-fi media and in the future or is it important to sci-fi and our future?

Is and would Religion get in the way of such advancements in reality and in sci-fi? Just been wondering on how religions in the Mass Efect universe would deal with the everyday man/woman having implants and genetic engineering, AI's taking part in everyday life and actual alien life walking the streets.

How would religion accept this if we came into contact with an actual Mass Relay?

Religion is too wide of a concept to be of much use in answering such a question. Isnt religion basically just an umbrella term of belief in something that can not be proven?

Lol. If you are "religious" about something it just means you're passionate about it.  No spirituality or belief implied. 

[Subject M]

DiebytheSword wrote...

Hathur wrote...

i'm not a person of faith (agnostic by definition i suppose).. but if you are a person of faith, doesn't it make sense to you that your deity gave you (us, humans) intelligence with the ability to improve our way of life? why would your god create a species intelligent enough to improve themselves through technology if he / she / it didn't want you to do have the option to do it?

seems kinda silly to me to think that a god would make us smart enough to improve ourselves with medicine and technology and then forbid us from doing it.

Being a person of faith, I see no religious reason to avoid self improvement and encroaching on "playing god" so long as you understand what it is you are messing with.

Custom designing lifeforms, like pollution eating bacteria, isn't objectionable because you are playing god, it's objectionable because you don't know what releasing a manufactured bug into the ecosystem will do.

Same with modifying people, for now that isn't a huge issue, but what happens when that modification carries through several generations?

What happens when a collection of superior traits ends up in one spot?  Are we now talking about possibly engineering something like Kahn Noonien Singh, and his followers?

What happens to mundane, unaltered humans?

In my own personal opinion, based on faith and study of my religion, the ability to self determine was always there, but specific knowledge that God wanted to keep to himself was kept with the "apple".  Its direct consequence was becoming more like God, in this way playing God kind of comes with the territory.

The forbidden fruit is a lot like the proverbial genie in the bottle, we can't go back.  Instead, we must go forward; with caution or ill-advised haste being the two options before us.

What this means for Mass Effect and its environs, isn't much.  I've seen people say that religion collapsed, and that UFO = religion disproved, but none of that is implicitly true.  Mass Effect artfully sidestepped the issue and left it open to the player where Shepard stood in regards.  I liked that part a lot, and I'm glad that it was not intrusive or dismissive.

Sounds sound to me.
Altering the human body and so on is in our age more of an question for ethical, scientific and economic discussion. In a free market system, such technologies would seriously risk creating an master-slave like racial division in society. The safest way forward would seem to be a heavily regulated scientific and transparent public control of these technologies emphasizing diversity and a "better safe than sorry" approach.

[Whale]

There are loads of religious references in ME and overall I thought they were done in a very believable way. It seems that for many species that have attained space travel, religion has become more fluid and perhaps more of a cultural trait than a faith - Ash mentions that her beliefs are a bit old-fashioned, Liara says that few Asari follow the old Goddess cult, Drell are taking up Hanar beliefs, Turians are going Zen. I think this is a realistic view of what would happen to a society (however multi-cultural) if suddenly exposed to completely different sentient lifeforms with cultures and traditions of their own - a bit of relativism will necessarily have to come into place, unless you're that guy from Terra Firma.

I also appreciate that despite several characters voicing their religious positions, the default is non-religious or at least minding-my-own-business. This is not so much of an issue in sci-fi settings, but fantasy often tends to saddle you with an enforced faith with exotically named goddesses and weirdly hippy rituals.

I did cringe a bit when Kolyat seems to grow religious all of the sudden - it seems more a daddy-issue-induced guilt trip than genuine faith. But maybe he's just trying to comfort his dying father in a way he knows would be significant to him.

[Volus Warlord]

Subject M wrote...

Sounds sound to me.
Altering the human body and so on is in our age more of an question for ethical, scientific and economic discussion. In a free market system, such technologies would seriously risk creating an master-slave like racial division in society. The safest way forward would seem to be a heavily regulated scientific and transparent public control of these technologies emphasizing diversity and a "better safe than sorry" approach.

Lol. The more you regulate, the more you incentivize finding means to bypass such regulations.. and reward those that can.

[Cutlass Jack]

Reorte wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

I only think it should stay away from 'real' religions. I'm all for completely fictional alien/future religions.

I absolutely loved visiting the temple on Thessia with Javik along. Was fun to watch him poke holes in their religion. That same bit done on earth with a real earth religion would be tacky.

Only if it doesn't fit the character (or suddenly come up with religious beliefs for a character just in order to knock them). I wouldn't have a problem with either Javik mocking a real world religion or Ashley defending one. It would only get tacky if it was handled in exactly the same way as Thessia, i.e. "You people have been worshipping protheans!" I could understand why that would be avoided however, but I find it rather sad that writers feel that they should avoid them. As I said earlier, IMO anything goes as long as it's the characters trying to ram their opinions down the throats of other characters rather than the author trying to ram them down ours.

I meant specifically Javik pointing out their 'gods' were really protheans. In other words, attempting to rewrite existing religions for the sake of the plot. 

A random athiest mocking that other people are religious doesn't bother me. For example talking with Ashley in ME1. Ashley's religion wasn't specific. Just that she believed in a higher power.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 25 mai 2012 - 08:12 .

[Draaconis]

Religion should have died out years ago when people stopped communicating with grunts and cave drawings.

[Subject M]

Volus Warlord wrote...

Subject M wrote...

Sounds sound to me.
Altering the human body and so on is in our age more of an question for ethical, scientific and economic discussion. In a free market system, such technologies would seriously risk creating an master-slave like racial division in society. The safest way forward would seem to be a heavily regulated scientific and transparent public control of these technologies emphasizing diversity and a "better safe than sorry" approach.

Lol. The more you regulate, the more you incentivize finding means to bypass such regulations.. and reward those that can.

Its just about making the costs and risks outstrip the benefit and acting quickly when violations against the regulations are discovered. Think of how nuclear technology is handled, but instead of closed government regulation, it should be a transparent process.